Mohammad and Zainab

[meedo]

Sorry but that is a “disclosure” by him not a “Suni cleric who rejects Altabri & Alqurtubi commentaries”, besides that dosn’t degrade any authenticity of his book.

Moreover, that Muhammed & Zainab story is mentioned in at least 5 historical books, and Altabari is just one of them:

1) Altabari commentary:

تفسير الطبري:
وَذَلِكَ أَنَّ زَيْنَبَ بِنْت جَحْش فِيمَا ذُكِرَ رَآهَا رَسُول اللَّه صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فَأَعْجَبَتْهُ , وَهِيَ فِي حِبَال مَوْلَاهُ , فَأُلْقِيَ فِي نَفْس زَيْد كَرَاهَتهَا لِمَا عَلِمَ اللَّه مِمَّا وَقَعَ فِي نَفْس نَبِيّه مَا وَقَعَ
​

2) Alqurtubi commentary:

تفسير القرطبي:
ثُمَّ إِنَّهُ عَلَيْهِ السَّلَام أَتَى زَيْدًا يَوْمًا يَطْلُبهُ , فَأَبْصَرَ زَيْنَب قَائِمَة , كَانَتْ بَيْضَاء جَمِيلَة جَسِيمَة مِنْ أَتَمِّ نِسَاء قُرَيْش , فَهَوِيَهَا وَقَالَ : ( سُبْحَان اللَّه مُقَلِّب الْقُلُوب ) ! فَسَمِعَتْ زَيْنَب بِالتَّسْبِيحَةِ فَذَكَرَتْهَا لِزَيْدٍ , فَفَطِنَ زَيْد فَقَالَ : يَا رَسُول اللَّه , اِئْذَنْ لِي فِي طَلَاقهَا , فَإِنَّ فِيهَا كِبْرًا , تَعْظُم عَلَيَّ وَتُؤْذِينِي بِلِسَانِهَا , فَقَالَ عَلَيْهِ السَّلَام : ( أَمْسِكْ عَلَيْك زَوْجك وَاتَّقِ اللَّه ) . وَقِيلَ : إِنَّ اللَّه بَعَثَ رِيحًا فَرَفَعَتْ السِّتْر وَزَيْنَب مُتَفَضِّلَة فِي مَنْزِلهَا , فَرَأَى زَيْنَب فَوَقَعَتْ فِي نَفْسه , وَوَقَعَ فِي نَفْس زَيْنَب أَنَّهَا وَقَعَتْ فِي نَفْس النَّبِيّ صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَذَلِكَ لَمَّا جَاءَ يَطْلُب زَيْدًا , فَجَاءَ زَيْد فَأَخْبَرَتْهُ بِذَلِكَ , فَوَقَعَ فِي نَفْس زَيْد أَنْ يُطَلِّقهَا . وَقَالَ اِبْن عَبَّاس : " وَتُخْفِي فِي نَفْسك " الْحُبّ لَهَا . " وَتَخْشَى النَّاس " أَيْ تَسْتَحْيِيهِمْ وَقِيلَ : تَخَاف وَتَكْرَه لَائِمَة الْمُسْلِمِينَ لَوْ قُلْت طَلِّقْهَا
​

3) Musnad Ahmed:

مسند أحمد:
أتى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم منزل زيد بن حارثة فرأى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم امرأته زينب ، وكأنه دخله لا أدري من قول حماد أو في الحديث فجاء زيد يشكوها إليه ، فقال له النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم : أمسك عليك زوجك واتق الله ، قال : فنزلت { واتق الله و تخفي في نفسك ما الله مبديه } إلى قوله { زوجناكها } يعني زينب .
​

4) Ketab Altabakar Alkaber, Book 8, Page 99 (PDF page 4692):http://www.archive.org/download/eltabakat/tabakat.pdf

كتاب الطبقات الكبير:
أخبرنا محمد بن عمر ، قال : حدثني عبد الله بن عامر الأسلمي ، عن محمد بن يحيى بن حبان ، قال : جاء رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم بيت زيد بن حارثة يطلبه ، و كان زيد إنما يقال له : زيد بن محمد ، فربما فقده رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم الساعة فيقول : أين زيد ؟ فجاء منزله يطلبه ، فلم يجده ، و تقوم إليه زينب بنت جحش زوجته فُضُلاً أي وهي لابسة ثياب نومها - ، فأعرض رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم عنها ، فقالت : ليس هو هاهنا يا رسول الله فادخل بأبي أنت وأمي ، فأبى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أن يدخل ، و إنما عجلت أن تلبس لما قيل لها : رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم على الباب فوثبت عجلى ، فأعجبت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ، فولى و هو يهمهم بشيء لا يكاد يفهم منه إلا : سبحان مصرّف القلوب ، فجاء زيد إلى منزله ، فأخبرته امرأته أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أتى منزله ، فقال زيد : ألا قلت له أن يدخل ؟ قالت : قد عرضت ذلك عليه فأبى ، قال : فسمعت شيئاً ؟ قالت : سمعته يقول حين ولى تكلم بكلام لا أفهمه ، و سمعته يقول : سبحان الله العظيم ، سبحان مصرف القلوب ، فجاء زيد حتى أتى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ، فقال : يا رسول الله بلغني أنك جئت منزلي فهلا دخلت ؟ بأبي وأمي يا رسول الله ، لعل زينب أعجبتك فأفارقها ، فيقول رسول الله : أمسك عليك زوجك ، فما استطاع زيد إليها سبيلاً بعد ذلك اليوم ، فيأتي إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فيخبره ، فيقول رسول الله : أمسك عليك زوجك ، فيقول : يا رسول الله أفارقها ، فيقول رسول الله : احبس عليك زوجك ، ففارقها زيد واعتزلها و حلت يعني انقضت عدتها قال : فبينا رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم جالس يتحدث مع عائشة ، إلى أن أخذت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم غشية ، فسري عنه و هو يبتسم و هو يقول : من يذهب إلى زينب يبشرها أن الله قد زوجنيها من السماء ؟ وتلا رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم { وإذ تقول للذي أنعم الله عليه وأنعمت عليه أمسك عليك زوجك …} الآية ، القصة كلها .
​

5) Ahmed Abdu-Alwahab book, Page 68:

كتاب أحمد عبد الوهاب (ص 68):
رواية ابن إسحاق: مرض زيد بن حارثة فذهب إليه رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يعوده و زينب ابنة جحش امرأته جالسة عن رأس زيد ، فقامت زينب لبعض شأنها ، فنظر إليها رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ثم طأطأ رأسه ، فقال : سبحان مقلب القلوب والأبصار ، فقال زيد : أطلقها لك يا رسول الله ، فقال : لا ، فأنزل الله عز وجل { وإذ تقول للذي أنعم الله عليه وأنعمت عليه …} إلى قوله {وكان أمر الله مفعولاً } . تعدد نساء الأنبياء و مكانة المرأة في اليهودية والمسيحية والإسلام اللواء أحمد عبد الوهاب .
​

You are evading the proof that i gave you , that he himself admitted he didnt check any of what he wrote!! We in Islam ( if you are really a former muslim) believe only in the authenticated hadeeth. Please get me one .

Other wise don’t bother pasting all this hadeeth that you kow and i know are not authenticated.

 

[R_not]

I don’t need a hadeeth , the verse is telling it. itself and says the reason for marriage .

‘‘We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons,’’

the verse is clearly stating to the situation that was in pre islamic time and the ruling that would set from now on . No adoption with erosion of lieneage and adoption doesn create lineage . the wife of any adopted son if she gets a devorce from this ‘’ son ‘’ is actually getting a devorce froma separate man that is not a son.

yes i believe he married her because Allah arranged this marriage to be that way . and as i told you and is very obvious , he could have married her in teh first place before Zayd if he wanted to .

if he really wanted Zaynab for her, what would have stopped him from marrying her before he gets in the dillemma of Zayd his adopted son in teh first place?

No hadith means you are just making things up as you go along.

 

[R_not]

You are evading the proof that i gave you , that he himself admitted he didnt check any of what he wrote!! We in Islam ( if you are really a former muslim) believe only in the authenticated hadeeth. Please get me one .

Other wise don’t bother pasting all this hadeeth that you kow and i know are not authenticated.

Oh, wait - wait! Now you are saying you need a hadith?!?!

What is it - you cannot have it both ways. Or else your creditability is totally shot.

 

[R_not]

No adoption in islamIslam prohibits adopting children. Period. Adoption in the technical sense is not allowed in Muslim Shriah law. This is because Allah does not like this gesture of adopting orphan children. Muhammad Rushed Ridha states, “Allah prohibited adoption in Islam and annulled all the judgements pertaining to adoption. The most important one of which was the prohibition of the wife of the adopted son to the fostering father as though he is the natural father. So Allah commanded his prophet to marry Zainab Bint Jahsh in order to abolish pagan custom (Fatawa al-Imam).” Al-sabuni states, “As to Zainab Bint Jahsh, the Messenger of Allah married for no higher wisdom than to abolish the heresy of adoption (A-sabuni).”

I don’t know, how in the world Allah could dislike such noble deeds. I am not sure what percentage of Muslims actually knows this divine law. I do admit that I never knew this and, I was stunned when I first learnt this from a real Mullah. How and why was this noble custom among human being prohibited? We shall learn this history later in this essay.

Pre-Islamic Arab Custom: Adoption of orphan/helpless child was a very popular and moral practice amongst pre-Islamic Arabs. By adopting orphan/helpless child, they used to consider adopted child as their own. And they used to pass onto them the adopter’s genealogy and name, his investment of them with all the rights of the legitimate son including that of inheritance and the prohibition of marriage on grounds of consanguinity.

And the pre-islamic period is similar in feelings about adoption as we are. It is a good and noble deed and became foul after mohammed lusted after his stepson’s wife.

 

[R_not]

Muhammad’s marriage to Zainab, who was the wife of his adopted son, led to many accusations against Muhammad. The dissimulators said, “Muhammad prohibits the wives of the son while he himself marries the wife of his son Zaid.” These incidents are not in harmony with the ethics and conventions that Muhammad introduced to mankind, as Muslims claim. Abdullah Ibn Umar narrated: “We have always called him [namely Zaid] Zaid Ibn Muhammad.” Abdullah Ibn Umar said, “We only called him Zaid Ibn Muhammad till the verse “Muhammad is not the father of any of your men’ was revealed.””

Historical views: There are many conflicting stories about this scandalous happening and all these stories are based on Sahih Hadiths and Muslim biographies and books. It is worthwhile to quote here what Ibn Sa`d and al-Tabari said concerning this story:

Muhammad Ibn Yahya Ibn Hayyan narrated, “The Messenger of God came to Zaid Ibn Haritha’s house seeking him. Perhaps the Messenger of God missed him at that time, that is why he said, ‘Where is Zaid?’ He went to his house seeking him and, when he did not find him, Zainab Bint Jahsh stood up to [meet] him in a housedress, but the Messenger of God turned away from her. She said, ‘He is not here, Messenger of God, so please come in; my father and mother are your ransom.’ The Messenger of God refused to come in. Zainab had hurried to dress herself when she heard that the Messenger of God was at her door, so she leapt in a hurry, and the Messenger of God liked her when she did that. The heart of the Prophet was filled with admiration for her He went away muttering something that was hardly understandable but for this sentence: ‘Praise be to God who disposes the hearts.’ When Zaid came back home, she told him that the Messenger of God came. Zaid asked, ‘You asked him to come in, didn’t you?’ She replied, ‘I bade him to, but he refused.’ He said, ‘Have you heard [him say] anything?’ She answered, 'When he had turned away, I heard him say something that I could hardly understand. I heard him say, “Praise be to God who disposes the hearts.” ’ Zaid went out to the Messenger of God and said, ‘O Messenger of God, I learned that you came to my house. Did you come in? O Messenger of God, my father and mother are your ransom. Perhaps you liked Zainab. I can leave her.’ The Messenger of God said, ‘Hold on to your wife.’ Zaid said, ‘O Messenger of God, I will leave her.’ The Messenger of God said, ‘Keep your wife.’ So when Zaid left her, she finished her legal period after she had isolated herself from Zaid. While the Messenger of God was sitting and talking with A´isha, he was taken in a trance, and when it lifted, he smiled and said, 'Who will go to Zainab to tell her that God wedded her to me from heaven?' The Messenger of God recited; 'Thus you told someone whom God had favoured and whom you yourself have favoured: "Hold on to your wife." ' A´isha said, 'I heard much about her beauty and, moreover, about how God wedded her from heaven, and I said, “For sure she will boast over this with us.” ’ Salama, the slave of the Messenger of God, hurried to tell her about that. She gave her some silver jewellery that she was wearing.”

More help from Allah:

So, this charge that the dissimulators, among others, leveled against Muhammad (pbuh) necessitated the revelation of more Qur’anic verses:

(Sura al-Ahzab Q.33: 40): “Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but [he is] God’s Messenger and the Seal of the Prophets. God is Aware of everything!”

(Sura al-Ahzab Q.33: 37): “We married her off to you so that there would be no objection for believers in respect to their adopted sons’ wives once they have accomplished their purpose with them. God’s command must be done!”

the article I posted has more. It also gives the apologist’s viewpoint.

Basically, surahs were created by mohammed to justify what he did. This is just one reason why the koran is not the word of god, or holy.

 

[Reuben_J]

**The net result was good.

1.There was clear allowance for divorce in Islam (against the church teachings)

1. It was assured that a son is a real son only, not any adopted or supposedly begotten son.
2. It was proved that any person can remarry after divorce and the divorced lady can also re-marry any man. (Another good advancement against the church teachings).

The more you discuss this matter on the basis of a false report (Tabari) and the more you ignore the words of the Quran itself on this subject (wjich had been presented here a few times), the more problems for the Catholics will become evident. For instance:

The Catholic belief that there cannot be any divorce.Our book Quran is explicit on this subject that divorce is permitted under grave circumstances…

The Catholic belief that there can be sons other than actual real sons is also proved wrong. The world needed to come out of that misunderstanding of supposed sons.

The remarraige issue was also a problem for the Catholics. It did not allow remarriage and considered that as adultry. That proved wrong by the incident of the marriage of the prophet to a divorced lady (zainab).

So this subject has solved many problems of the world which were mostly caused (created) by the Catholic teachings.**

Sound like you are muttering to yourself. Why? Are you afraid to confront my reply to your post? As usual you are trying to deviate from the topic by bringing in Catholics belief. As usual when you cannot discuss anymore you said that I have a ‘mission’ in bringing up this topic. I said I just wanted a full discussion on this without fear. Why are you so afraid about discussing all these? Have I been abusive so far?

You have failed to prove the connection between Mohammad marriage to Zainab and verses 33:37, 33:50 to Christians’ interference. Muslim posters here have vehemently denied Christians’ influence in the life of Mohammad.

My contention was why did Mohammad have to marry a woman he did not want (according to you) only to prove a teaching regarding divorce, adopted son and marrying cousins. He could always just teach these without resorting to do them unless of course he wanted to do them himself. And that was what I am trying to say – he wanted to do this himself. I supported this from facts – his behavior before and after. Yes it is my assumption but so are Muslims assuming pretty much on this issue.

 

[planten]

Originally Posted by meedo
I don’t need a hadeeth , the verse is telling it. itself and says the reason for marriage .

‘‘We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons,’’

the verse is clearly stating to the situation that was in pre islamic time and the ruling that would set from now on . No adoption with erosion of lieneage and adoption doesn create lineage . the wife of any adopted son if she gets a devorce from this ‘’ son ‘’ is actually getting a devorce froma separate man that is not a son

.

**That was a good reply on this subject. The pre-Islamic habit were influenced by the church teachings of adopted and supposed son and begotten son. The Arabs were adopting those bad habits. So it was done well to get rid of the wrong relation of geneology…

For Reuben: I have replied to your post very well. Now, you have said it was not necessary to marry but simple wordly advice would have been enough. Not at all. You know that example is better than precept. **
That bad habit set in motion by the misdirected views of the Catholics (because in those days there were only Catholics and no protestants at all) could only be anulled by a practical example and Muhammad did that very well for all the people of the world for ever. How do you like that?

To make matters more clear I would request some knowledgable friend to please inform us about the Law in the Torah about the adopted sons. What does that say. It could be helpful to understand the problem of adopted sons. What does Torah say about it?
Do the Jews believe that an adopted son is a real son?

 

[Reuben_J]

.

**That was a good reply on this subject. The pre-Islamic habit were influenced by the church teachings of adopted and supposed son and begotten son. The Arabs were adopting those bad habits. So it was done well to get rid of the wrong relation of geneology…

For Reuben: I have replied to your post very well. Now, you have said it was not necessary to marry but simple wordly advice would have been enough. Not at all. You know that example is better than precept. **
That bad habit set in motion by the misdirected views of the Catholics (because in those days there were only Catholics and no protestants at all) could only be anulled by a practical example and Muhammad did that very well for all the people of the world for ever. How do you like that?

To make matters more clear I would request some knowledgable friend to please inform us about the Law in the Torah about the adopted sons. What does that say. It could be helpful to understand the problem of adopted sons. What does Torah say about it?
Do the Jews believe that an adopted son is a real son?

Well, Planten you have to fight it among yourself because obviously your Muslim brethrens don’t agree with you that Christians, let alone Catholics specifically influenced Mohammad. If you all agree that they influenced him in his revelations then we can take the discussion to another phase.

Well if he had to marry a woman he did not want to marry just to set the example, I can accept this as well. Then I say Muslims marriage is not based on love or attraction but of convenience. Why? Because you have to follow the prophet’s action. This is for your single women to ponder about should they decide to marry.

I don’t agree that the practice of adoption is bad. We have many orphans who have no parents and have no way of experiencing parental love. There are couples that are childless but longing for children of their own. Done in sincerity, adoption is a noble deed and for the benefit of both parties. You don’t have to practice adoption if you don’t want to but people who want to should not be prevented from doing it and to do it legally and correctly.

You haven’t answered some of the questions posed here, if you like. Why was Mohammad monogamous when Khadijah was alive but extremely polygamous after she died?

 

[planten]

I have to repost a para. Muhammad was not influenced by the Catholics. It was all people affected all around i.e. the Arabs too. Please see my words…

That was a good reply on this subject. The pre-Islamic habit were influenced by the church teachings of adopted and supposed son and begotten son. The Arabs were adopting those bad habits. So it was done well to get rid of the wrong relation of geneology…

 

[swariffin]

I have to repost a para. Muhammad was not influenced by the Catholics. It was all people affected all around i.e. the Arabs too. Please see my words…

If that so, why did you mentioned the Christian in your posting?? If you said the example is better than precept, look at what the Chinese gave the Muslim. What God said is halal, don’t declare it haram. The Chinese give you the example that they eat pork, and yet their economy is among the strongest despite this global financial crisis. So, the Chinese has annulled Muhammad’s teaching about eating pork.

 

[Reuben_J]

I have to repost a para. Muhammad was not influenced by the Catholics. It was all people affected all around i.e. the Arabs too. Please see my words…

Hi Planten. So Catholics had no influence on Mohammad’s revelation now. Well, …

Ok, I don’t want to humiliate you while I am ahead. I hope you will be charitable to me in the future if you are ahead but do you know why you are at a loss of words and made that blunder? It is because Mohammad is in indefensible position regarding this issue. You are not able to defend this man because he did not hold the virtue that you as a human being do.

When I first came here I made this statement that Muslims are people like me. It is only the religion that’s different. For what you are, you have virtuous value too. I know that being a Muslim that you have to go along with Mohammad but when it comes to deep scrutiny, there you are, you’d be at a loss for words and make blunders.

Mohammad among many things did not stand for what we ordinary people regardless whether you are Muslims or not, hold as virtuous. Obviously not in this instances where he stood for divorce, polygamy, marriage of convenience, uncompassionate (by denying that adoption is right), marrying one’s relative as he did to Zainab and in the other thread, condoned wife beating.

What does a husband want of a wife?

What does a wife wants in a husband?

What do parents want their children to be when they grow up?

You can answer that as well as I do. But definitely a wife will not want a husband to look for more wives nor does she want her husband to have divine access to beat her. I don’t know about husbands, maybe we men want more than one wives. I’ve been in this business for a very long time and know that’s never the solution. If the marriage is right a single woman in all your life is more than satisfying and brings contentment to the husband.

I know that most women would want a faithful husband. Sex no doubt is important but it’s not the only thing in marriage. Also most women would want their children to grow up bright, wholesome and not to be fed with some dislike and hatred to things that do not belong and identified with them.

I don’t say Mohammad is all wrong. Yes there are some good points about him but here we are talking about someone whose standard of moral must be exceptional and impeccable. Mohammad did not fit that category. I know you will disagree with me and I can understand why the disagreement but fact is fact. And that’s how it is.

 

[inJESUS]

Saying muhammad married her “to teach” is simply ridiculous as teaching it by words was enough.

Saying Muhammad had no desire and was simply doing what Allah says is wrong because the Quran says Muhammad was concealing his desire for a married woman.

As to why Muhammad did not marry other women beside Khadija, my answer is, beside wealth, power and position , my answer is, but rather question is, according to which religion did he marry her if not islam and if it was Waraqa who pronounced them husband and wife according to the seera, and who was a convert to “Christianity”?

 

[R_not]

Hi Planten. So Catholics had no influence on Mohammad’s revelation now. Well, …

Ok, I don’t want to humiliate you while I am ahead. I hope you will be charitable to me in the future if you are ahead but do you know why you are at a loss of words and made that blunder? It is because Mohammad is in indefensible position regarding this issue. You are not able to defend this man because he did not hold the virtue that you as a human being do.

When I first came here I made this statement that Muslims are people like me. It is only the religion that’s different. For what you are, you have virtuous value too. I know that being a Muslim that you have to go along with Mohammad but when it comes to deep scrutiny, there you are, you’d be at a loss for words and make blunders.

Mohammad among many things did not stand for what we ordinary people regardless whether you are Muslims or not, hold as virtuous. Obviously not in this instances where he stood for divorce, polygamy, marriage of convenience, uncompassionate (by denying that adoption is right), marrying one’s relative as he did to Zainab and in the other thread, condoned wife beating.

What does a husband want of a wife?

What does a wife wants in a husband?

What do parents want their children to be when they grow up?

You can answer that as well as I do. But definitely a wife will not want a husband to look for more wives nor does she want her husband to have divine access to beat her. I don’t know about husbands, maybe we men want more than one wives. I’ve been in this business for a very long time and know that’s never the solution. If the marriage is right a single woman in all your life is more than satisfying and brings contentment to the husband.

I know that most women would want a faithful husband. Sex no doubt is important but it’s not the only thing in marriage. Also most women would want their children to grow up bright, wholesome and not to be fed with some dislike and hatred to things that do not belong and identified with them.

I don’t say Mohammad is all wrong. Yes there are some good points about him but here we are talking about someone whose standard of moral must be exceptional and impeccable. Mohammad did not fit that category. I know you will disagree with me and I can understand why the disagreement but fact is fact. And that’s how it is.

You know ReubenJ, I have to agree with you on this post and have to make a comment on the
‘If the marriage is right a single woman in all your life is more than satisfying and brings contentment to the husband.’ sentence.

I have been around for more than 1/2 century and have seen a lot of married couples - myself included. And the happiest people I know are the ones that are still married to their sweetie pies and have been married for literally decades. (I stop using years - even in regards to my birthday :bigyikes: )

It seems to me those people are the most stable. Yes, they have had hard times but they have worked through them as a couple.

polygamy does no one any good - not even the man who thinks that having a bunch of wives is the solution to his problems. The children are not stable because not only the wives, but they are in contention with them in getting attention from their dads. No dad can pay attention to that many wives and if they have bundles of kids by each - they cannot possibly be a good father to each of them. And the wife - what does she get if he does die? 1/4 of his estate. And it might be divvied up between all the kids too.

And in muslims lands it isn’t like the woman can just go get a job - many of these countries don’t allow women to work, or they can only get menial jobs, or in our countries guess what folks!! WE PAY FOR THIS BEHAVIOR! Us taxpayers are paying for polygamous muslim marriages and no one is doing a thing about it. there is no way a man can support that many wives unless he is a very, wealthy man. Many are immigrants and are not high on the salary levels.

 

[swariffin]

You know ReubenJ, I have to agree with you on this post and have to make a comment on the
‘If the marriage is right a single woman in all your life is more than satisfying and brings contentment to the husband.’ sentence.

I have been around for more than 1/2 century and have seen a lot of married couples - myself included. And the happiest people I know are the ones that are still married to their sweetie pies and have been married for literally decades. (I stop using years - even in regards to my birthday :bigyikes: )

It seems to me those people are the most stable. Yes, they have had hard times but they have worked through them as a couple.

polygamy does no one any good - not even the man who thinks that having a bunch of wives is the solution to his problems. The children are not stable because not only the wives, but they are in contention with them in getting attention from their dads. No dad can pay attention to that many wives and if they have bundles of kids by each - they cannot possibly be a good father to each of them. And the wife - what does she get if he does die? 1/4 of his estate. And it might be divvied up between all the kids too.

And in muslims lands it isn’t like the woman can just go get a job - many of these countries don’t allow women to work, or they can only get menial jobs, or in our countries guess what folks!! WE PAY FOR THIS BEHAVIOR! Us taxpayers are paying for polygamous muslim marriages and no one is doing a thing about it. there is no way a man can support that many wives unless he is a very, wealthy man. Many are immigrants and are not high on the salary levels.

In addition to what you post, in Indonesia where women are allowed to work, there is a probability that a man married to 4 wives (meeting the quota), have those 4 wives work, and he stayed at home. Not necessarily have to attend the children.

 

[nosadl]

Hi Planten. So Catholics had no influence on Mohammad’s revelation now. Well, …

Ok, I don’t want to humiliate you while I am ahead. I hope you will be charitable to me in the future if you are ahead but do you know why you are at a loss of words and made that blunder? It is because Mohammad is in indefensible position regarding this issue. You are not able to defend this man because he did not hold the virtue that you as a human being do.

When I first came here I made this statement that Muslims are people like me. It is only the religion that’s different. For what you are, you have virtuous value too. I know that being a Muslim that you have to go along with Mohammad but when it comes to deep scrutiny, there you are, you’d be at a loss for words and make blunders.

Mohammad among many things did not stand for what we ordinary people regardless whether you are Muslims or not, hold as virtuous. Obviously not in this instances where he stood for divorce, polygamy, marriage of convenience, uncompassionate (by denying that adoption is right), marrying one’s relative as he did to Zainab and in the other thread, condoned wife beating.

What does a husband want of a wife?

What does a wife wants in a husband?

What do parents want their children to be when they grow up?

You can answer that as well as I do. But definitely a wife will not want a husband to look for more wives nor does she want her husband to have divine access to beat her. I don’t know about husbands, maybe we men want more than one wives. I’ve been in this business for a very long time and know that’s never the solution. If the marriage is right a single woman in all your life is more than satisfying and brings contentment to the husband.

I know that most women would want a faithful husband. Sex no doubt is important but it’s not the only thing in marriage. Also most women would want their children to grow up bright, wholesome and not to be fed with some dislike and hatred to things that do not belong and identified with them.

I don’t say Mohammad is all wrong. Yes there are some good points about him but here we are talking about someone whose standard of moral must be exceptional and impeccable. Mohammad did not fit that category. I know you will disagree with me and I can understand why the disagreement but fact is fact. And that’s how it is.

Planten, Muslim woman, etc… mythologizing Muhammad, excusing his faults, rationalizing his lust or immorality by using, (as Muhammad did), supposedly divine revelations to justify them, does not advance the cause of truth. I have read that even Aisha remarked at how convenient Muhammad’s revelation 33 came to justify his wants.

As with Reuben here, i think that Muhammad’s life and actions cannot stand up to scrutiny. No righteous man would claim that God commanded him to take another’s wife as his own?

If you need an inspiration and an idol to model your lives on, Christ is the one and the way.

You muslim friends who are in this forum are intelligent persons. I sincerely believe that if you do continue with your reasoning, and engage in an objective and dispassionate study of the Quran, you will end up leaving Islam and joining what you now despise, the church of Christ. So be prepared for the wonderful journey.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious , Ever Merciful

Salaam/ peace ,

…My contention was why did Mohammad have to marry a woman he did not want (according to you) only to prove a teaching regarding divorce, adopted son .

At first , he did not want to marry her . Later , when he found out that the couple is unhappy & want to dissolve the marriage ; Specially when God sends the revealation that He wants him to marry Zainab , then there was no other choice . Believers must not challenge God but say ’ We hear & We obey’ .

 

[planten]

It does not annoy Allah. One can ask questions. One can check up things, such as, could a human be a God at the same time? Could a pious lady beome pregnant by a ghost. There is no end to the mystries and one may try to solve them. One may spend all his/her life in scrutiny and may not get any where.

It is necessary to hear and obey as Muslim Woman has informed. It is bad habit to ask too many questions and do nothing.

Allah said that His servants (mankind) should pray. The mankind may turn around and ask why they should pray? What is the sense n the prayers? That is not the right way. One should obey and start praying. At the same time one may try to find out (by asking) about the wisdom behind the order to pray to God.

 

[Reuben_J]

R_not:

You know ReubenJ, I have to agree with you on this post and have to make a comment on the
‘If the marriage is right a single woman in all your life is more than satisfying and brings contentment to the husband.’ sentence.

I have been around for more than 1/2 century and have seen a lot of married couples - myself included. And the happiest people I know are the ones that are still married to their sweetie pies and have been married for literally decades. (I stop using years - even in regards to my birthday )

It seems to me those people are the most stable. Yes, they have had hard times but they have worked through them as a couple.

polygamy does no one any good - not even the man who thinks that having a bunch of wives is the solution to his problems. The children are not stable because not only the wives, but they are in contention with them in getting attention from their dads. No dad can pay attention to that many wives and if they have bundles of kids by each - they cannot possibly be a good father to each of them. And the wife - what does she get if he does die? 1/4 of his estate. And it might be divvied up between all the kids too.

I just could not imagine how Muslim Woman can be that ignorant when she equated Christian marriages to the phenomenon in Western society. I feel like telling her that the guarantee of successful marriage is in Christian marriage. But this may be another topic altogether.

Yes, the best marriage that one sees today is when that marriage stays intact and the couple in fidelity throughout their marriage life. Today too bad that many people modeled their marriage on Hollywood and the silver screen. That people like Elizabeth Taylor and Marilyn Monroe have become their idols. Well, these are not Christian role models nor do they practice Christian marriages.

The most macho and manly of all men are not those who change their wives like changing tissue paper but the ones who can keep single wife in their life. Even among Hollywood, perhaps people like the late Paul Newman and Gibson should fare better as example compare to the so called sexy macho men who have many wives. And yes, there is no guarantee that changing wives will bring happiness to them. Oh, we just see that one too often how bad marriages destroyed their lives.

I have older Muslim friends who would talk frankly, you know in man’s talk, that they openly admit that after fifty they feel that their wives could not cope with their sexual demand and that being practical they have to marry younger women. Thus marrying more than one wife is actually to satisfy the lust of man rather than on compassionate ground as Mohammad would want to preach. Well not all of his wives counted as widows but among them were some of the choicest and young women that he could lay his hands on.

R_not:

And in muslims lands it isn’t like the woman can just go get a job - many of these countries don’t allow women to work, or they can only get menial jobs, or in our countries guess what folks!! WE PAY FOR THIS BEHAVIOR! Us taxpayers are paying for polygamous muslim marriages and no one is doing a thing about it. there is no way a man can support that many wives unless he is a very, wealthy man. Many are immigrants and are not high on the salary levels.

Yes, women are truly disadvantaged lots there that perhaps they just resign to this fact and condone it.

 

[Reuben_J]

Swariffin:

In addition to what you post, in Indonesia where women are allowed to work, there is a probability that a man married to 4 wives (meeting the quota), have those 4 wives work, and he stayed at home. Not necessarily have to attend the children.

Yes, a ruling like that (having four wives) can easily be taken advantage of. As it is marriage is not always a bed of roses but surely it is compounded and made worse by bad laws and teachings.

 

[Reuben_J]

nosadl:

Planten, Muslim woman, etc… mythologizing Muhammad, excusing his faults, rationalizing his lust or immorality by using, (as Muhammad did), supposedly divine revelations to justify them, does not advance the cause of truth. I have read that even Aisha remarked at how convenient Muhammad’s revelation 33 came to justify his wants.

As with Reuben here, i think that Muhammad’s life and actions cannot stand up to scrutiny. No righteous man would claim that God commanded him to take another’s wife as his own?

If you need an inspiration and an idol to model your lives on, Christ is the one and the way.

You muslim friends who are in this forum are intelligent persons. I sincerely believe that if you do continue with your reasoning, and engage in an objective and dispassionate study of the Quran, you will end up leaving Islam and joining what you now despise, the church of Christ. So be prepared for the wonderful journey.

Yes, that’s exactly my problem with all this. It is just not right to marry your relative especially if she have been a wife of your son albeit adopted son.

Yes, I would point Jesus to them but since this thread is about Mohammad I will not take advantage of that. But you are right, if Jesus is the bench-mark on morality, Mohammad was very far below the ladder. You can say he did not qualify at all.