Mohammed and Aisha

[dolphinlove]

Go the Eels

parraeels.com.au/homepage/index.asp

More of a marconifc.com/ guy myself …

Although a Brother at school went for Parra, so when I catch the sports news I hope to see them win

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Go West Tigers

 

[Montalban]

Go West Tigers

Tigers? Currently winless!

Getting back to the OP it always is of interest to me that even Moslem nations that have such young ages for marriage for girls don’t also consider her an ‘adult’ in other ways - such as giving her the right to vote, or to drive.

Seems like the laws are skewered so as simply to allow adult me to have sex with under-age girls.

 

[jack_hawkins]

Well ok if you want to be picky about it, the minimum legal age of marriage in Iran is 13 for females and 15 for males. But saying that this doesn’t account for sex outside of marriage is a moot point since sex outside marriage is illegal in Iran anyway.

um no if we want to be exact (not picky) 13 and 15 is the minimum age for marriage without the consent of parents!
thus my point still stands, as children who are younger can get married with the consent of their parents
do you have any referenced information to refute my contention that girls over 9 can legally have sex in Iran?

 

[jack_hawkins]

many Muslims are profoundly ignorant of human development - no doubt that is a consequence of a society that cannot examine the exploits of Mohammed in light of the scientific facts
things I have heard include “girls mature faster in warm climates”- huh? are they like plants or something, the extra sunlight makes them grow quicker?
how can having vaginal bleeding qualifiy as a sign of physica, mental and emotional maturity?
the facts are that at menarche, the girl’s body is not ready for risk-free childbirth
also it is a relatively common phenomenon that newly born babies have some vaginal bleeding, due to withdrawal from maternal hormones. so according to Muslim definitions they are ready for sex from then on!
mental and emotional develpoment is also subject to changes in the central nervous system (myelination) during adolescence rather than purely societal factors, so it cannot be claimed that maturity can develop much earlier in different societies

 

[Montalban]

um no if we want to be exact (not picky) 13 and 15 is the minimum age for marriage without the consent of parents!
thus my point still stands, as children who are younger can get married with the consent of their parents
do you have any referenced information to refute my contention that girls over 9 can legally have sex in Iran?

Kadaveri tried several times to get around stating the whole truth

 

[Pump_and_Kin]

Seems like you don’t know the truth at all, perhaps a review would do you some good, no?

 

[famdigy]

the reason you hear conflicting arguments is because not every Muslim accepts the narration of Aisha and the Prophet’s marriage at 6 and consummated at 9.

you will get a different answer depending on who you ask.
The sunni muslims have a collection hadiths called the authentic 6. They are six books that contain sayings and actions of the prophet. The reason they are important is because many believe these books are authentic and everything within them is unequivocally true. That is because during the early periods of Islam many hadiths were fabricated and falsly attributed to the prophet. The later scholars of hadith took it upon themselves to collect the authentic sayings and actions of the prophet.

Others believe the Hadiths are recorded by men and although the hadith scholars have tried to filter out fabricated hadiths from authentics it is very likely that many false narrations made their way into these books. The criterion for accepting / rejecting any hadith should always be based on intellect, sound reasoning, and the Quran (i.e. it should not contradict Gods words)

The problem with the reports of Aisha’s age at marriage is that they are all narrated by one man. I find it very hard to believe that details of a big event like the prophet’s marriage is only known by one person. Imagine a big event like 9/11 happening and 200-300 years later the only historical records you have is from a person called Jack Daniels. Now what if you research his biography and you discover Jack was a liar. common sense and reasoning would dictate you find another source that is reliable. In a nutshell that is the problem with the reports of Aisha’s marriage to the prophet. Some muslims accept it as it is recorded in the authentic hadith books and others question the validity of these reports based on logic and reasoning.

I hope this answered your question.

Hi everybody,

I just wanted to ask everyone about Mohammed and his marriage to Aisha. I really haven’t done much personal study into this area, but from what i’ve read (mainly on the internet) there seems to be conflicting opinions (her age at marriage etc).

Does anyone want to briefly retell the facts?

It’s just something that has been bugging me. I’ve read that she was 9 when he married and had sex with her, which really disturbs me. I really can’t understand how anybody could take this ‘man’ to be a Prophet, let alone the most important…but this then lead me to think that maybe there are accounts of biblical prophets with young wives… Are there any?

I’m sorry, I’m just writing informally/stream of consciousness. I hope I was clear…

 

[Montalban]

the reason you hear conflicting arguments is because not every Muslim accepts the narration of Aisha and the Prophet’s marriage at 6 and consummated at 9.

That not every one would is a truism.

The Hadith are central to Islam and follow in importance only the Koran.

These Hadith are followed by most Moslems who call them ‘strong’ hadith.

I hope this answered your question.

Only if you’re happy providing part of the story

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

No, not the Aisha’s hadiths were narrated by one man, Hisham Ibn Urwa, again.

This is an outright lie. Shaykh Gibril Haddad of Sunnipath has said that this hadith is a ‘mutawatir’ sahih hadith - meaning it has been narrated through so many different chains of narration that it is beyond doubt to Sunni theology.

There are at least 17 different chains of narration, some of which do not include Hisham ibn Urwa or his father at all. In fact, Shaykh Haddad says 11 other people narrated it besides, Hisham Ibn Urwa, and names 6 of them as examples.

mereislam.info/articles/G-F-Haddad_Aisha%27s-Age-at-the-Time-of-Her-Marriage_2005-11.pdf

mereislam.info/articles/G-F-Haddad_More-on-Aisha%27s-Age-at-the-Time-of-Her-Marriage_2004-12.pdf

This was a lie that was made up by Islamists thinking people can’t check. Well, someone knowledgeable in Sunni theology checked.

 

[cor]

I don’t think Catholics should criticize what Mohammed did so harshly. In the present Code of Canon Law, the mininum age men and women must be to marry is 16 and 14 respectively. That’s more than 9, but it used to be 14 and 12 respectively. See:

newadvent.org/cathen/07695a.htm

BTW, the present Code of Canon Law forbids marriage of a minor(s) (defined in the code as those under 18) where the parents are unaware or “reasonably opposed” except in cases of “necessity” For present Code of Canon Law on this:

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3W.HTM
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3Y.HTM

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

I don’t think Catholics should criticize what Mohammed did so harshly. In the present Code of Canon Law, the mininum age men and women must be to marry is 16 and 14 respectively. That’s more than 9, but it used to be 14 and 12 respectively. See:

newadvent.org/cathen/07695a.htm

BTW, the present Code of Canon Law forbids marriage of a minor(s) (defined in the code as those under 18) where the parents are unaware or “reasonably opposed” except in cases of “necessity” For present Code of Canon Law on this:

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3W.HTM
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3Y.HTM

This part of the Code of Canon Law can be updated, revised, or discarded as needed. It is not binding for all times and places. Tomorrow, the Vatican could announce that the new minimum age for marriage is 18 or 20 or whatever number.

Mohammed is believed by Muslims to be the perfect example of a righteous man, for all times and all places. Since he had sexual relations with a nine year old girl, this is viewed as acceptable behavior for all times and places.

This is a big difference.

 

[murtad]

Further to what Jack Hawkins says above, be wary of those that state that Mary was the same age too, when she was married.

Montalban, there is a BIG difference between St. Mary the Theotokos and Aisha. The proof St Mary never had sex with her husband is very clear from Tradition of the Church which says she never had any biological children.

Christian Canon Law forbis men and women who take an oath of celebacy to have sex on the pain of ex-communication.

BTW, can you provide me this source of yours?

 

[cor]

This part of the Code of Canon Law can be updated, revised, or discarded as needed. It is not binding for all times and places. Tomorrow, the Vatican could announce that the new minimum age for marriage is 18 or 20 or whatever number.

Mohammed is believed by Muslims to be the perfect example of a righteous man, for all times and all places. Since he had sexual relations with a nine year old girl, this is viewed as acceptable behavior for all times and places.

This is a big difference.

My understanding is that (most) Muslims don’t say that marriage and consummation with any 9 year old is acceptable; only with those who have reached puberty. Aisha may have been a very unusually precocious person.

The Protoevangelium of James (not scripture, but a traditional source with some historical value) puts the Blessed Virgin’s age when she was married or betrothed to Joseph at 12:

newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm

which is not that far from 9.

If I had a 9 year old daughter though, I wouldn’t want her to marry at that age regardless of her physical maturity.

 

[cor]

Montalban, there is a BIG difference between St. Mary the Theotokos and Aisha. The proof St Mary never had sex with her husband is very clear from Tradition of the Church which says she never had any biological children.

Christian Canon Law forbis men and women who take an oath of celebacy to have sex on the pain of ex-communication.

BTW, can you provide me this source of yours?

I don’t know what he is referring to but the Protoevangelium of James gives Mary’s age as 12 for her betrothal/marriage to Joseph:

newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm

I think the emotional and personal maturity required to participate in procreation by being with child is about the same as the emotional and personal maturity required for the act of sexual intercourse. Being with child is part of the procreative process which began miraculously in Mary (I’m almost 100% sure Muslims also believe it began miraculously with Mary)

 

[Montalban]

I don’t know what he is referring to

Don’t follow murtad’s mistake. I was stating what Moslems believe, not what I believe.

I think the emotional and personal maturity required to participate in procreation by being with child is about the same as the emotional and personal maturity required for the act of sexual intercourse. Being with child is part of the procreative process which began miraculously in Mary (I’m almost 100% sure Muslims also believe it began miraculously with Mary)

Any statistics to show that the moment* (which is the Islamic belief) a girl is physically able to have kids, she’s also emotionally/mentally adult too?

*-given up to three months after she first has her period.

 

[Montalban]

I don’t think Catholics should criticize what Mohammed did so harshly. In the present Code of Canon Law, the mininum age men and women must be to marry is 16 and 14 respectively. That’s more than 9, but it used to be 14 and 12 respectively.

Which was still more than 9!

And that’s not with a 50 year old man

“Of the four ahâdîth in Sahîh al-Bukhari, two were narrated from cAishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abû Hishâm (5:236) and one via 'Ursa (7:88). All three of the ahâdîth in Sahîh Muslim have cAishah as a narrator. Additionally, all of the ahâdîth in both books agree that the marriage betrothal contract took place when cAishah was “six years old”, but was not consummated until she was “nine years old”. Additionally, a hadîth with the same text (matn) is reported in Sunan Abû Dâwûd. Needless to say, this evidence is - Islamically speaking - overwhelmingly strong and Muslims who deny it do so only by sacrificing their intellectual honesty, pure faith or both.
This evidence having been established, there doesn’t seem much room for debate about cAishah’s age amongst believing Muslims. Until someone proves that in the Arabic language “nine years old” means something other than “nine years old”, then we should all be firm in our belief that she was “nine years old” (as if there’s a reason or need to believe otherwise!?!). In spite of these facts, there are still some Muslim authors that have somehow (?) managed to push cAishah’s age out to as far as “fourteen or fifteen years old” at the time of her marriage to the Prophet(P). It should come as no surprise, however, that none of them ever offer any proof, evidence or references for their opinions. This can be said with the utmost confidence, since certainly none of them can produce sources more authentic than the hadîth collections of Imâms al-Bukhârî and Muslim! Based on the research that I’ve done, I feel that there is a common source for those who claim that cAishah’s age was “fourteen or fifteen years old” at the time of the marriage. This source is The Biographies of Prominent Muslims which is published in book form, on CD-ROM and is posted in several places on the Internet. Just another example of why going to the sources is important . . .”
islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html
(We concur with the general contents of the article.
and Allah Ta’ala Knows Best Mufti Ebrahim Desai islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=6618)

 

[cor]

Any statistics to show that the moment* (which is the Islamic belief) a girl is physically able to have kids, she’s also emotionally/mentally adult too?

*-given up to three months after she first has her period.

I don’t believe a girl at the beginning of puberty is generally emotionally/mentally mature enough to have sex or have kids. But it could happen in some cases. Each person is different.

In the Blessed Virgin’s case, she was gifted with extraordinary divine wisdom and a spiritual maturity exceeding not only her years but that of all women and men. At least that’s what I want to believe. I’m still struggling with the Catholic faith.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

My understanding is that (most) Muslims don’t say that marriage and consummation with any 9 year old is acceptable; only with those who have reached puberty. Aisha may have been a very unusually precocious person.

But the point is, they’ll condone sexual relations with children just because they’ve started the process of physical, mental, and sexual maturation. My point still stands.

The Protoevangelium of James (not scripture, but a traditional source with some historical value) puts the Blessed Virgin’s age when she was married or betrothed to Joseph at 12:

newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm

I know. We’ve dicussed this before. The source states she was from 12 - 14, with the Annunciation occurring two years later. So even with that source, she was 14 - 16.

which is not that far from 9.

In terms of physical, mental, and sexual development, there is a major difference.

If I had a 9 year old daughter though, I wouldn’t want her to marry at that age regardless of her physical maturity.

Good, good, I’m glad we’re in agreement on that.

 

[Montalban]

I don’t believe a girl at the beginning of puberty is generally emotionally/mentally mature enough to have sex or have kids. But it could happen in some cases. Each person is different.

Islam says it’s for every one. This is why I disagree with Islam, on this one.

In the Blessed Virgin’s case, she was gifted with extraordinary divine wisdom and a spiritual maturity exceeding not only her years but that of all women and men. At least that’s what I want to believe. I’m still struggling with the Catholic faith.

There’s only one source that says she was engaged at 14. Whatever age she was, we will not know.

 

[dranzal]

Well, my daughter is ten. She has not started menstruating yet. I don’t know many nine or ten year olds with mature breast tissue to properly feed a baby. While I know that breast tissue does begin growing in puberty, does anyone know if a child that young is impregnated at the onset of puberty, does her tissue grow that quickly so she could adequately feed her baby nine months later?

I will assume here that most readers (hopefully all) find the thought of a nine year old breastfeeding an infant to be fundamentally disturbing.

Those that want to compare 9 years old to 14…shame on you. Fourteen years old is more than 50% older than 9. Stand my ten year old next to a 14 year old and there is no question of the difference. A fourteen year old in a culture that celebrates motherhood and supports it with nearby relatives can easily begin having children. I don’t think it would be wise in our country, but that is because of our culture, not the relative maturity of the 14 year old. We have a presumption of immaturity in our culture. We don’t expect them to act like adults until 18-21 yrs old. I am certain that, if Mary was 14 when she conceived and 15 when she gave birth, she was more than able to handle motherhood in the culture she was in.