Mohammed and Aisha

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Well, my daughter is ten. She has not started menstruating yet. I don’t know many nine or ten year olds with mature breast tissue to properly feed a baby. While I know that breast tissue does begin growing in puberty, does anyone know if a child that young is impregnated at the onset of puberty, does her tissue grow that quickly so she could adequately feed her baby nine months later?
And the interesting (in a horrific way) thing is that there’s no proof that Aisha was even reaching puberty, which is why some Moslems give advice that it’s okay to marry a girl BEFORE she reaches puberty - only conceeding the point that once she’s reached that age, she can seek another marriage elsewhere.
 
I will assume here that most readers (hopefully all) find the thought of a nine year old breastfeeding an infant to be fundamentally disturbing.
Most disturbing is that this discussion is even in the context of holy scripture. Just one more proof to me at least that Islam is false.
 
Islam says it’s for every one. This is why I disagree with Islam, on this one.
Are you sure? Maybe a Muslim could offer some light about this.
There’s only one source that says she was engaged at 14. Whatever age she was, we will not know.
The Protoevangelium of James says she was betrothed at 12 not 14:

newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm

"And when she was **twelve years old **there was held a council of the priests, saying: Behold, Mary has reached the **age of twelve **years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, lest perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord? And they said to the high priest: Thou standest by the altar of the Lord; go in, and pray concerning her; and whatever the Lord shall manifest unto you, that also will we do. And the high priest went in, taking the robe with the twelve bells into the holy of holies; and he prayed concerning her. And behold an angel of the Lord stood by him, saying unto him: Zacharias, Zacharias, go out and assemble the widowers of the people, and let them bring each his rod; and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. And the heralds went out through all the circuit of Judæa, and the trumpet of the Lord sounded, and all ran.

“9. And Joseph, throwing away his axe, went out to meet them; and when they had assembled, they went away to the high priest, taking with them their rods. And he, taking the rods of all of them, entered into the temple, and prayed; and having ended his prayer, he took the rods and came out, and gave them to them: but there was no sign in them, and Joseph took his rod last; and, behold, a dove came out of the rod, and flew upon Joseph’s head. And the priest said to Joseph, You have been chosen by lot to take into your keeping the virgin of the Lord. But Joseph refused, saying: I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl. I am afraid lest I become a laughing-stock to the sons of Israel. And the priest said to Joseph: Fear the Lord your God, and remember what the Lord did to Dathan, and Abiram, and Korah; Numbers 16:31-33 how the earth opened, and they were swallowed up on account of their contradiction. And now fear, O Joseph, lest the same things happen in your house. And Joseph was afraid, and took her into his keeping. And Joseph said to Mary: Behold, I have received you from the temple of the Lord; and now I leave you in my house, and go away to build my buildings, and I shall come to you. The Lord will protect you.”

I don’t know if you are Catholic but I also cited a source which indicates that the law of the Catholic Church used to set 12 as the minimum age for women to marry (14 for men) (today it is 14 and 16, though the bishops in a nation may choose to set it higher)

newadvent.org/cathen/07695a.htm
 
Again, there are a couple of problems here. Betrothed does not mean married nor does it mean sexual relations. Two, Mary never had sex with Joseph. Three, this source is not authoritative. During this lifetime we will never know how old Mary was when she was betrothed to Joseph, her age at marriage, and her age at conception with Jesus. Fourth, the Muslims do have what they believe are authoritative sources for the age of Aisha. They use that as justification for sex crimes against children.

Now, to summarize: no authoritative source lists the age of Mary. Even if it did, there were no sexual relations between Mary and Joseph. And Joseph is not viewed as the incorruptible model for all men, at all times, in all places. He is a good role model of course, but we don’t use him in the manner that Muslims use Mohammed. The Muslims have alleged authoritative sources. These sources say their holy man consummated sexual relations with his nine year old “wife.” Because of this, sex with children is permissible in Islam if the child has reached puberty or even before. I hope you can see the problem and the differences here.
 
hola

please let us not disrespect the Blessed Virgin by associating her with the actions of Mohamed. also let us remember that the protoevangelion of james is not canonical… and so that means the Holy Fathers declared it unreliable.

Dominus Vobiscum
 
hola

please let us not disrespect the Blessed Virgin by associating her with the actions of Mohamed. also let us remember that the protoevangelion of james is not canonical… and so that means the Holy Fathers declared it unreliable.

Dominus Vobiscum
That’s what I have been trying to get across but I think people ignore the facts.
 
Again, there are a couple of problems here. Betrothed does not mean married nor does it mean sexual relations. Two, Mary never had sex with Joseph.
My understanding is that they meant pretty much the same thing at the time. Betrothal wasn’t like how modern engagement is today. I agree Mary never had sex with Joseph (though Protestant’s don’t), but I wonder if they would have not still displayed affection for each in other ways for example by holding hands or caressing. I’m not aware of official Church teaching on that and I don’t know what theologians say (apart from a liberal one who seems out there)
Three, this source is not authoritative.
It’s not a religious authority; it’s a historical authority. I don’t see any reason to doubt its historical reliability.
During this lifetime we will never know how old Mary was when she was betrothed to Joseph, her age at marriage, and her age at conception with Jesus.
Does anyone know what private revelation says about the matter?
 
My understanding is that they meant pretty much the same thing at the time. Betrothal wasn’t like how modern engagement is today.

Betrothal in those days wasn’t the same as engagement today; nor was it the same as marriage in those days. Sexual relations, if memory serves correct, were not permitted. I think the betrothed lived apart until the wedding as well.

I agree Mary never had sex with Joseph (though Protestant’s don’t),

I’m glad we’re in agreement.

but I wonder if they would have not still displayed affection for each in other ways for example by holding hands or caressing. I’m not aware of official Church teaching on that and I don’t know what theologians say (apart from a liberal one who seems out there)

I’m not sure what the official teaching, if any, is on that. I would say they did not. Such questions are based on pure speculation, however, and can not be relied a upon.

It’s not a religious authority; it’s a historical authority. I don’t see any reason to doubt its historical reliability.

I don’t think the Church accepts it as historically reliable. That’s enough for me.

Does anyone know what private revelation says about the matter?

I’m not sure what you mean.
 
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ChristIsTheWay:
There’s private revelation about the life of Mary such as with Blessed Catherine Anne Emmerich – I think that’s her name. There may be mention of the age in which Mary married there. She had visions of some kind I believe. I believe it’s thought to form the basis or inspiration for some of Mel Gibson’s movie (her revelations included stuff about Jesus too)
 
This is from the ‘Gospel of the Birth of Mary’ (published in a book called 'The Lost Books of the Bible" containing some of the early Chrisitian writings that didn’t make it into the canon of scripture.)

Chapter V verse 3 “So that when at length she arrived to her fourteenth year, as the wicked could not lay anything to her charge worthy of reproof, so all good persons who were acquainted with her admired her life and conversation. 4 At that time, the high priest made a public order. That all the virgins who had public settlements in the temple and were come to this age, should return home, and, as they were now of a proper maturity, should, according to the custom of their country, endeavour to be married. 5 To which command, though all the other virgins readily yeilded obedience, Mary the Virgin of the Lord, alone answered that she could not comply with it. 6 Assigning these reasons, that both she and her parents had devoted her to the service of the Lord; and besides, that she had vowed her virginity to the Lord, which vow she was resolved never to break through by lying with a man”

This document has the same ‘historicity’ of the Protevangelium but puts her age at 14 when efforts were first made to betroth her to someone.

Since these documents don’t agree, there remains historical dispute over the age of Mary at betrothal and marriage. But it doesn’t really matter because this thread is about Aisha. There was no dispute over the age of Aisha when she was first raped by Mohammed (marriage notwithstanding), in her own words - nine years old, until Muslim scholars tried to hide the truth (taqiyyeh) about it.

Mohammed was not just a paedophile. He was a sex-addict. No wonder Muslim men took to covering up their women. If Mohammed saw them, he wanted to have sex with them and would even instruct his followers to divorce their wives so he that could ‘legally’. He was a man consumed by lust and it didn’t matter if the girl was under-age or not.
 
I don’t think Muslims believe that Mohammed was perfect in every way. They don’t believe he was sinless do they?

One Muslim I talked to (he is Sufi) said that Mohammed may have made mistakes when it came to the things of this world and he gave an example but I don’t remember it clearly. But he said that when it came to his role as prophet he was perfect.
 
I don’t think Muslims believe that Mohammed was perfect in every way. They don’t believe he was sinless do they?

One Muslim I talked to (he is Sufi) said that Mohammed may have made mistakes when it came to the things of this world and he gave an example but I don’t remember it clearly. But he said that when it came to his role as prophet he was perfect.
I was under the impression they thought all the prophets were sinless…not 100% sure though.
 
M
Are you sure? Maybe a Muslim could offer some light about this.
Here’s some cites.
**Expert advice from Moslems

When is a girl considered in Islam to be a woman? **

Muslim experts cite that once a girl menstruates, she’s marriageable. This is based on the Koran…

When in Islam is a girl a woman?
The Koran

Sura At-Talaaq
65:4
“And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses (i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death] . And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him.”

The Appropriate Age for Marriage
Question: What is the appropriate age for men and women to marry? Some of the young ladies of today do not accept to be married to men older than them and also some of the men do not get married from anyone older than them either. We hope for a response, may Allah reward you.
Response: I advise the young ladies not to refuse a man because of his older age. Even if he be ten, twenty or thirty years older, this is not a valid excuse. **The Prophet (peace be upon him) married Aisha when he was fifty-three years old and she was nine years old. Older age is not harmful. **
fatwa-online.com/fataawa/marriage/interview/9991018_20.htm

"It is the duty of parents to arrange the marriage of their children when they come of age. The Prophet Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam has stressed that it should be taken seriously and with a full sense of responsibility. Abu Saeed Khudri and Abdullah ibn Abbas (R.A.) narrated that the Prophet Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam said “Whoever is blessed by the Creator with children should give them good names, a good training, teach them good manners, and **arrange for their marriage when they attain the age of puberty. ** If he does not pay due heed to it and fails to get them married, on reaching marriageable age (due to negligence) and they take to ways that are forbidden, the father will be held responsible for it.”

islam.tc/social_conduct/social_conduct_of_a_muslim.html#Responsibility of

"Islam teaches that female puberty begins when the menses is started. From Bukhari, volume 3, Book of Witnesses, chapter 18, page 513: "The boy attaining the age of puberty and the validity of their witness and the Statement of Allah: “And when the children among you attain the age of puberty, then let them also ask for permission (to enter).” Quran 24:59. Al Mughira said, “I attained puberty at the age of twelve.” The attaining of puberty by women is with the start of menses, as is referred to by the Statement of Allah: “Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them prescribed period if you have any doubts (about their periods) is three months… [65:4] …Al-Hasan bin Salih said, “I saw a neighbouress of mine who became a grandmother at the age of twenty-one.” [1] [1] The note for this reference says, “This women attained puberty at the age of nine and married to give birth to a daughter at ten; the daughter had the same experience.” My understanding of the above is that Islam considers that when a child “attains”, or begins, “puberty”, then he / she is considered an adult. Hence the validity of the witness. Muhammad followed a cultural norm in marrying and having sex with a young girl. After all, she was considered an adult. Not only did he do that, but he taught his followers to do as he did. Therefore is acceptable for Muslim men to marry and have intercourse with girls who have had their menarche. Muhammad established this cultural practice as a precedent in Islam. I add that there are other primitive cultures that allow girls to marry following their menarche. But that does not make it right or in the best interests of the child. Some cultures killed baby daughters for various reasons. Cultural norms do not make an action morally right”
exmuslim.com/com/puberty.htm

(this is an anti-Muslim site)

Con’t…
 
"Islam And the Age of Puberty

Islam clearly teaches that adulthood starts when a person have attained puberty."

alinaam.org.za/social/myaaisha.htm

(this whole site is an argument in defence of Muhammad - giving relativist arguments)

Action Items for the uttaqun:
Single Muslims should have intentions to marry as soon as Islamically permissible and a suitable candidate for marriage is available.
For a female, it is permissible to marry at any time near puberty.
For a man, he is ordered to marry after puberty once he has established a means to support a family.
It is recommended (in order to avoid being jailed) to not marry until old enough according to the laws in the land they live, but it is Islamically permissible before that. In the U.S., the typical legally permissible age is 14 or 15 with a parent’s permission, but it will vary depending on where you live, so check with the local authorities first.

muttaqun.com/marriage.html
The Protoevangelium of James says she was betrothed at 12 not 14:

newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm
The Age of Mary

It will not be without interest to recall here, unreliable though they are, the lengthy stories concerning St. Joseph’s marriage contained in the apocryphal writings. When forty years of age, Joseph married a woman called Melcha or Escha by some, Salome by others; they lived forty-nine years together and had six children, two daughters and four sons, the youngest of whom was James (the Less, “the Lord’s brother”). A year after his wife’s death, as the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age, Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old…

newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm

And she made the purple and the scarlet, and took them to the priest. And the priest blessed her, and said: Mary, the Lord God hath magnified thy name, and thou shall be blessed in all the generations of the earth. And Mary, with great joy, went away to Elizabeth her kinswoman, and knocked at the door. And when Elizabeth heard her, she threw away the scarlet, and ran to the door, and opened it; and seeing Mary, she blessed her, and said: Whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? for, behold, that which is in me leaped and blessed thee. But Mary had forgotten the mysteries of which the archangel Gabriel had spoken, and gazed up into heaven, and said: Who am I, O Lord, that all the generations of the earth should bless me? And she remained three months with Elizabeth; and day by day she grew bigger. And Mary being afraid, went away to her own house, and hid herself from the sons of Israel. And she was sixteen years old when these mysteries happened.

newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm

See also

cin.org/users/james/files/key2mary.htm

These are not reliable sources on the age of Mary
 
There are apocryphal writings that say Joseph was nearly NINETY when he married Mary, she being twelve.

So I wouldn’t go bringing Mohammed’s age into this.
You’ve already cited the reason against your own relativist argument.

I’ll repeat it here because you obviously missed it when you wrote it…
There are apocryphal writings
:hmmm:
Thus…
Evidence from Islamic sources on Aisha: Hadith are ‘strong’ hadith, respected and accepted by most Moslems.

Evidence from Christian sources on Mary: are ‘weak’ and even your Catholic Encyclopedia says that they’re not reliable

Aisha’s age at consummation: 9
Mary’s age: unknown. Worst case scenario was she was 14.
14 is not 9

In summary, we have strong evidence that Aisha was 9. Moslems are permitted to marry a girl aged 9 because of this evidence.

We have next to no evidence about Mary’s age, and the little we have (saying she was 14) is not counted as reliable by anyone.
 
My understanding is that they meant pretty much the same thing at the time. Betrothal wasn’t like how modern engagement is today. I agree Mary never had sex with Joseph (though Protestant’s don’t), but I wonder if they would have not still displayed affection for each in other ways for example by holding hands or caressing. I’m not aware of official Church teaching on that and I don’t know what theologians say (apart from a liberal one who seems out there)
That’s not true. Betrothal was as important as marriage insofar as it is the beginning of a contract, but it wasn’t permission for couples to have sex. Thus being betrothed (or ‘engaged’) is NOT the same as what happened to Aisha. Even in the Islamic evidence it says she was ‘betrothed’ at 6, but the marriage wasn’t consummated till she was 9. So Moslems have an understanding that they’re different too.

I agree that NOW engagement isn’t seen as important.
 
So I wouldn’t go bringing Mohammed’s age into this.
Let me ask straight up, do you think Mary was in the same kind of situation as Aisha? (with regards the relationships with the men in their lives)
 
Let me ask straight up, do you think Mary was in the same kind of situation as Aisha? (with regards the relationships with the men in their lives)
Well, Mary and Joseph’s was clearly a chaste marriage, but then by the way you brought up Mohammed’s being 50 it’s obvious you found something particularly objectionable about that fact as if his mere age were unusual.
 
Well, Mary and Joseph’s was clearly a chaste marriage, but then by the way you brought up Mohammed’s being 50 it’s obvious you found something particularly objectionable about that fact as if his mere age were unusual.
Indeed, what I brought up was fact. You weighed in against this with non-fact - from sources not reliable - something you seem to have dropped as a case. I think you should state now that you don’t support the ‘truth’ of the ‘Christian’ evidence.

My objection is not merely that Muhammad was 50. It’s that ‘fact’ in the context of Aisha being 9. If he were 50, and she was 40, I’d not care that he was older.

And you note that they’re different situations. You must have had some point?
 
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