Mohammed and Aisha

[LilyM]

Indeed, what I brought up was fact. You weighed in against this with non-fact - from sources not reliable - something you seem to have dropped as a case. I think you should state now that you don’t support the ‘truth’ of the ‘Christian’ evidence.

My objection is not merely that Muhammad was 50. It’s that ‘fact’ in the context of Aisha being 9. If he were 50, and she was 40, I’d not care that he was older.

And you note that they’re different situations. You must have had some point?

No, I haven’t dropped the case at all. Many would find a marriage, even a chaste one, between a man of 90 and a woman of somewhere under 20, quite likely under 15, very nearly as objectionable as a sexual relationship between a physically mature girl who appears to have had no objections, although she be only 9, and any man, be he 15, 50 or 90.

I still don’t see what MOHAMMED’S age really has to do with anything. You were the one who mentioned that he was 50 - perhaps you tell us what you mean by that? Is their marriage somehow uniquely worse because he’s 50? How so? As I said, in my mind it’s Aisha’s age that is the problem, regardless of Mohammed’s age.

 

[Montalban]

In short, LilyM, I don’t understand your objection

You recognise that they’re in different situations.

Even if you didn’t believe the Christian account about Mary being conceived with child by the Holy Spirt, the fact don’t measure up against each other

9 is not 14

hadith is not apocryphal source

‘hadith is an example for Moslems to follow’ is not the same as ‘apocryphal source is not an example for us to follow’

 

[LilyM]

In short, LilyM, I don’t understand your objection

You recognise that they’re in different situations.

Even if you didn’t believe the Christian account about Mary being conceived with child by the Holy Spirt, the fact don’t measure up against each other

9 is not 14

hadith is not apocryphal source

‘hadith is an example for Moslems to follow’ is not the same as ‘apocryphal source is not an example for us to follow’

YOU are the one who specifically mentioned Mohammed’s age - it is obviously a detail of particular significance to you that he was 50, and as I said not 90, as Joseph is said to have been, or 15 or some other age. And YOU are the one who seems to think that his age of 50 somehow makes the marriage particularly damning, as if his sexual relationship with Aisha would somehow have been better if he was 15 instead. In my opinion it wouldn’t have been.

In short how about YOU explain to US why YOU find Mohammed’s age a particularly objectionable detail of the business?

 

[Montalban]

No, I haven’t dropped the case. Many would find a marriage, even a chaste one, between a man of 90 and a woman of somewhere under 20, quite likely under 15, very nearly as objectionable as one between a physically mature girl of nine and any man, be he 15, 50 or 90.

Many would is a truism

What you keep ignoring is the sources for ‘example One’ and the sources for ‘example Two’ are NOT the same, even for those who don’t believe either are inspired by God.

I still don’t see what MOHAMMED’S age really has to do with anything. You were the one who mentioned that he was 50 - perhaps you tell us what you mean by that? Is their marriage somehow uniquely worse because he’s 50?

I already did.

In my mind it’s Aisha’s age that is the problem.

If a fourteen year old girl had sex with a fourteen year old boy, then the fact that they are both very young is very much different than a 50 year old marrying a fourteen year old. I’m amazed you don’t see that! But then you continually want to bring in the ‘supposed’ age of Joseph, as if that’s a proper comparison, when it’s not because we don’t know Joseph was that age - and you say you don’t believe the situation’s the same anyway. So I don’t think you know what your point of objection is.

It’s the same reason we have laws that call a sexual union between a fourteen year old and a 20 year old ‘statutory rape’ because one person because of their age, is deemed to be in a position of power - through knowledge of life, etc. that makes the relationship unequal.

Where two teens are both exploring things for the same time, even though I believe that sex outside marriage is wrong, it’s a completely different kettle of fish to the situation with Aisha and Muhammad THAT WE KNOW HAPPENED - by the Hadith.

You were the one who responded with the ‘example’ about Joseph and Mary as if that was the same. It is not because we DON’T KNOW THAT IT HAPPENED. So what you’re arguing is that a situation we know is fact is to be weighed up by a piece of fiction.

 

[Montalban]

YOU are the one who specifically mentioned Mohammed’s age - it is obviously a detail of particular significance to you that he was 50, and as I said not 90, as Joseph is said to have been, or 15 or some other age. And YOU are the one who seems to think that his age of 50 somehow makes the marriage particularly damning, as if his sexual relationship with Aisha would somehow have been better if he was 15 instead. In my opinion it wouldn’t have been.

Where did I say one was better than the other?

You are continually dealing up the half truth of ‘Joseph is said to have been’. It’s like me quoting a man down the street and say “It has been said…” by whom? That would be the obvious question, and in this case your source for the age of Joseph is not reliable

In short how about YOU explain to US why YOU find Mohammed’s age a particularly objectionable detail of the business?

I said I did this. Here it is because you continue to miss it…

post #79

Montalban:

My objection is not merely that Muhammad was 50. It’s that ‘fact’ in the context of Aisha being 9. If he were 50, and she was 40, I’d not care that he was older.

In short you continue to beat up the issue of Joseph’s age, saying you think that you don’t believe in this situation being the same, anyway, so why you keep saying “Some say Joseph…” as if it adds weight to Joseph being that age.

You misrepresent what I’ve said, then ask me to explain it, even though I have, and pointed out that I have, and now have had to quote myself with what I’ve said.

 

[LilyM]

Many would is a truism

What you keep ignoring is the sources for ‘example One’ and the sources for ‘example Two’ are NOT the same, even for those who don’t believe either are inspired by God.

I already did.

If a fourteen year old girl had sex with a fourteen year old boy, then the fact that they are both very young is very much different than a 50 year old marrying a fourteen year old.

It’s the same reason we have laws that call a sexual union between a fourteen year old and a 20 year old ‘statutory rape’ because one person because of their age, is deemed to be in a position of power - through knowledge of life, etc. that makes the relationship unequal.

Where two teens are both exploring things for the same time, even though I believe that sex outside marriage is wrong, it’s a completely different kettle of fish to the situation with Aisha and Muhammad THAT WE KNOW HAPPENED - by the Hadith.

You were the one who responded with the ‘example’ about Joseph and Mary as if that was the same. It is not because we DON’T KNOW THAT IT HAPPENED. So what you’re arguing is that a situation we know is fact is to be weighed up by a piece of fiction.

There’s the teeny weeny fact that a boy of 15 is *legally *still a minor - no matter what crime he committed legally he’s seen as different from a man of 50. THAT is why it wouldn’t be considered statutory rape. Of course it could still probably be assault or some other crime.

Morally, as you should be well aware, children of the age of seven and over are considered to be of the age of reason and capable of being equally responsible for morally offensive acts as a man of 50. So I find your being all worked up about Mohammed’s age inexplicable. Morally as long as he’s over the age of reason there’s no difference.

As for the hadith v apocrypha argument - the best you can say about that particular hadith, in view of the vehemence with which I’ve seen all but one or two of Muslims on these forums dispute it, is that it’s of some authority - not complete, obviously not accepted by a large proportion of Muslims (at least two thirds or so if respondents on this forum are in any way representative).

 

[LilyM]

Where did I say one was better than the other?

You are continually dealing up the half truth of ‘Joseph is said to have been’. It’s like me quoting a man down the street and say “It has been said…” by whom? That would be the obvious question, and in this case your source for the age of Joseph is not reliable

You’re being disingenuous here. Surely you know merely from experience on these forums that the hadith as well is hotly disputed among Muslims - if I, who haven’t really been keeping track, have seen so little defence of it, surely you can’t have failed to notice that fact as well. So why do you keep saying it’s authoritative??? From what I’ve seen it’s only one or two rungs up the ladder of authority from our acceptance of the apocrypha!

post #79

Of course. So why did you mention Mohammed’s age again?

You know that bringing up his age better portrays the image of ‘dirty old man’. Which is a false one. He may have been objectionable in all sorts of ways but there’s no evidence that he was attracted to prepubescent girls in particular - not if one looks at the respective ages of the women he did take as wives and concubines (well, those that are recorded)

 

[Montalban]

There’s the teeny weeny fact that a boy of 15 is *legally *still a minor - no matter what crime he committed legally he’s seen as different from a man of 50. THAT is why it wouldn’t be considered statutory rape. Of course it could still probably be assault or some other crime.

A boy at 15 having sex with a girl at 15 is not a ‘teeny weeny’ fact insofar as they aren’t just deemed to be minors by the law - the law didn’t just decide that a 15 year old can have sex with a 15 year old, but not a 50 year old. The age difference is a difference in mentality, maturity, psychology. That you think otherwise is astonishing. I’ve stated several times why I think it’s significant. Now I must ask, why don’t you think it’s significant that a grown man has sex with a child?

Morally, as you should be well aware, children of the age of seven and over are considered to be of the age of reason and capable of being equally responsible for morally offensive acts as a man of 50. So I find your being all worked up about Mohammed’s age inexplicable. Morally as long as he’s over the age of reason there’s no difference.

Morally, because he’s having sex with a child, then his age is very much the difference.

Two children playing ‘doctor’ and both being under the ‘age of reason’ is so much different from one playing doctor with a 50 year old. I’m not hung-up just on the age of 50, either. If he were 40, 60, 70 or such. I cited 50, because that’s about what age Muhammad actually was.

I’m still amazed that you think that a grown man having sex with a child - it’s irrelevant the age difference.

As for the hadith v apocrypha argument - the best you can say about that particular hadith, in view of the vehemence with which I’ve seen all but one or two of Muslims on these forums dispute it, is that it’s of some authority - not complete, obviously not accepted by a large proportion of Muslims (at least two thirds or so if respondents on this forum are in any way representative).

They are strong Hadith. But you still won’t acknowledge the weakness of the evidence about Joseph.

Plus I notice you’ve gone back to misrepresentation mode. I’ve cited heaps of evidence from Moslems sites on this thread alone. Selective myopia aside, here’s the posts again.
Post #55
Post #72
Post #73

 

[Montalban]

You’re being disingenuous here. Surely you know merely from experience on these forums that the hadith as well is hotly disputed among Muslims

That a few modernists dispute these doesn’t make for the fact that the majority accept them. I’ve cited Islamic sites that accept them.

• if I, who haven’t really been keeping track, have seen so little defence of it, surely you can’t have failed to notice that fact as well. So why do you keep saying it’s authoritative??? From what I’ve seen it’s only one or two rungs up the ladder of authority from our acceptance of the apocrypha!

But then you would, because you want every argument at once. You want to say that they’re the same, but different. That some Moslems object means the same as them being unreliable (and this involves evidence I’ve cited - and relies upon citing examples of ‘one or two Moslems you’ve seen on this thread’

Of course. So why did you mention Mohammed’s age again?

I told you. It doesn’t matter whether he was 50, 60, or 70 because he’s still an adult.

You know that bringing up his age better portrays the image of ‘dirty old man’. Which is a false one. He may have been objectionable in all sorts of ways but there’s no evidence that he was attracted to prepubescent girls in particular

You can’t help but misrepresenting my argument. Where have I said that he was particularly attracted to children?

• not if one looks at the respective ages of the women he did take as wives and concubines (well, those that are recorded)

And now you accept the Hadith sources for their ages, or not?

 

[Montalban]

Here’s some more evidence, though you’ve cited NONE

“3 – ‘Aa’ishah bint Abi Bakr al-Siddeeq (may Allaah be pleased with her)

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married her in Shawwaal of the tenth year of the Prophethood. Ibn Sa’d, 8/58-59. She herself said: “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3894; Muslim, 1422. Al-Bukhaari (5077) also narrated that the Messenger of Allaah (S) (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not marry any virgin apart form her.”

islamqa.com/index.php?ref=47072&ln=eng

Question: Is it possible to have intercourse with girls before puberty, would not this physically and mentally harmful to the girl. Is such a thing permissible in Islam, and if it is permissible then what is the minimum age for marriage execution in Islam, since puberty is not a requirement.

Answer: In The Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Jurists discussed the issue of marrying a girl before puberty, i.e. a girl who might not be able to have sexual intercourse due to her young age.

They agreed that the Wali can marry a girl before puberty. But when she reaches puberty, she has the right to choose either to nullify the marriage contract or to continue her marital life.

Also, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, married `Aishah, may Allah be pleased with her, before she reached the age of puberty.

Hence, we conclude that puberty is not a condition for executing marriage. The only condition is the wife’s ability to bear responsibilities of marital life. However, we do not recommend marriage before puberty because at that early age the girl can’t fulfil her obligations towards her husband properly, nor can she know her rights towards him.

Thus, to avoid any negligence or liability on her part we do not recommend marriage at such an early age.

Allah Almighty knows best.

Dr. Su`aad Ibrahim Salih

islam-online.net/livefatwa/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=YFCeOS

(NOTE: When they say she can’t bear her responsibilities, they mean she’s probably unable to cook and clean for him)

Oh, but you’ve got one unreliable Christian source and two people on this thread - and the capability of claiming you’ve seen no evidence to the contrary despite three posts by me presenting exactly that.

And two 15 year olds having intercourse, well for you it’s exactly the same as a minor (as a 15 year old is) having sex with a 50 year old.

 

[Montalban]

A- Muslims regard Muhammad the best example of man.

Muslims believe that Muhammad is the ideal man - an example for all time (hence that is why Allah chose him - because he was a cut above the rest)

“The Lord of the universe, The Most Merciful and Compassionate sent about 124,000 prophets and messengers to every nook and corner of this earth to guide humanity towards understanding the purpose of its creation and thereby surrender to His Divine Laws and achieve its final destiny of Eternal Peace in His Paradise. The last messenger of God who brought His last revelation the Holy Quraan to humanity is Muhammad bin 'Abdullah, born in Mekkah, approximately 550 years after Jesus, son of Mary, peace and blessings of God be on them both. This is the account of this last Messenger of God, the most remarkable man, that human history has known.”
daar-ul-ehsaan.org/truth/must.htm

“The Prophet accomplished all this through the strength of his character and personal example;”
4newmuslims.org/prophet.htm

B-The Haddiths though not perfect, are second to the Koran for sources of instruction for Muslims

Some might say that the Haddiths are not perfect, but that’s only when compared with the Koran… “The point is not that Hadith is an unreliable source of information. On the contrary, Hadith lacks the level of reliability which is entailed in the basic sources of the Shari`ah. In other words, it is only when compared to the Qur’an and the Sunnah that Hadith seems wanting in reliability. Nevertheless, if one were to compare Hadith with, for instance, sources of other histories, it would easily surpass the reliability of the sources of other histories on all accounts. This is only due to the strenuous work done by the scholars of Hadith in this field of study.”

understanding-islam.org/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=319&sscatid=69

 

[Montalban]

C- The Primary Sources showing Aisha was nine when the relationship with Muhammad was consummated

From Bukhari vol. 7, #65:
“Narrated Aisha that the prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: “I have been informed that Aisha remained with the prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).””
Bukhari vol. 7, #88:
“Narrated Urwa: “The prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).””
Bukhari vol. 5, #234 says:
“Narrated Aisha: The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six. We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, “Best wishes and Allah’s blessing and a good luck.” Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah’s messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and **at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.” **
FROM THE HADITH OF SAHIH MUSLIM VOLUME 2, #3309
Aisha reported: Allah’s Messenger married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house **at the age of nine". **
FROM THE HADITH OF THE SUNAN OF ABU DAWUD
(Abu Dawud’s Hadith is the third most respected Hadith in Islam.)
From Abu Dawud, Vol. 2, #2116:
"Aisha said, “The Apostle of Allah married me when I was seven years old.” (The narrator Sulaiman said: “Or six years.”). **“He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old.” **

It’s not just one or two Hadith!

D(j)- Secondary Sources on Aisha’s age f

FROM THE HISTORY OF TABARI
(Tabari wrote the most authentic Islamic history. It covers 39 volumes. Tabari was one of the greatest Islamic scholars and the greatest Islamic Historian.)
From Tabari, volume 7, page 7:
**"…my marriage (to Muhammad) was consummated when I was nine…" **
From Tabari, volume 9, page 131
“Then the men and women got up and left. The Messenger of God consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old. Neither a camel nor a sheep was slaughtered on behalf of me”…(The Prophet) married her three years before the Emigration, when she was seven years old and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old, after he had emigrated to Medina in Shawwal. She was eighteen years old when he died.
(I also want to provide evidence from the best Islamic Ency. available in English, and other Islamic writers. They also acknowledge Aisha’s age being 9.)
FROM THE ENCYCLOPAEDIA OF ISLAM, under “Aisha”. (pub. by E.J. Brill).
“Some time after the death of Khadija, Khawla suggested to Muhammad that he should marry either Aisha, the 6 year old daughter of his chief follower, or Sawda Zama, a widow of about 30, who had gone as a Muslim to Abyssinia and whose husband had died there. Muhammad is said to have asked her to arrange for him to marry both. It had already been agreed that Aisha should marry Djubayr Mutim, whose father, though still pagan, was friendly to the Muslims. By common consent, however, this agreement was set aside, and Muhammad was betrothed to Aisha… The marriage was not consummated until some months after the Hidjra, (in April 623, 624). Aisha went to live in an apartment in Muhammad’s house, later the mosque of Median. She cannot have been more than ten years old at the time and took her toys to her new home.”
From the Muslim book “WOMEN IN ISLAM” by Said Abjullah Seif-Al-Hatimy, published by Islamic Publications in Lahore Pakistan:
“…(Aisha) She was the youngest of his wives. It is said that she was nine years of age when he married her.”

 

[Montalban]

As for the hadith v apocrypha argument - the best you can say about that particular hadith, in view of the vehemence with which I’ve seen all but one or two of Muslims on these forums dispute it, is that it’s of some authority - not complete, obviously not accepted by a large proportion of Muslims (at least two thirds or so if respondents on this forum are in any way representative).

The historical fact is that most Moslems accept the Hadith. Only relatively recently have some Moslems rejected this, but it’s not a popular theory because in effect it’s arguing against the evidence from their own holy books, and as I noted a few posts earlier Moslems believe their own holy books. They even have what they call the ‘science’ of Hadith where they can trace back the levels of transmission of particular verses. And by these and other means they find their own holy books reliable - which is not surprising

The first person to do a major re-work on this issue was a western-educated Moslem apologist.

MAULANA MUHAMMAD ALI, the author cited by The_true_path lived in the late 1800s. He was a modernist; educated in Britain.
"His editorials played a critical role in molding the political outlook of modern India. "
cyberistan.org/islamic/mmali.htm

As such he was an apologist for Islam; wishing to make it more palatable to his western educated audience. This was his raison d’etre, as is yours, to provide a false idea of Islam, based on recent conjecture.

“It appears that Maulana Muhammad Ali was the first Islamic scholar directly to challenge the notion that Aisha was aged six and nine, respectively, at the time of her nikah and consummation of marriage”
muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm

Thus such objections only emerged 1200 years after Muhammad - so over the history of Islam, these beliefs are ‘novel’

 

[Ella]

This link explains the situation with Aisha well. It’s not an anti-Muslim link. It’s the explanation by Dr. Bilal Philips regarding his statements made in a TV show in Britain.

youtube.com/watch?v=eqH7NNTvhqU

I’m posting this here again because it is a relevant video from a British Muslim cleric (don’t know his title). Dr. Philips doesn’t seem to have any uncertainty about the age of Aisha.

 

[Montalban]

A summary of points.

We have various Hadith mentioning an adult (who happens to be about 50) having intercourse with a girl aged 9. This group of hadith are deemed ‘strong’ hadith. A majority of Moslems believe the Hadith are reliable. They have a whole ‘science of hadith’ to prove the reliability of their own holy books - which is not surprising that a majority of people in one religion believe that religion.

I’ve cited Hadith saying she was nine. I’ve cited Islamic sites saying she was nine.

We have them believe that Muhammad is the best example of a man. Not all Moslem men will marry a child, but they’re allowed to. I’ve cited heaps of Islamic sites saying just that.

A minority choose to say that their own hadith are unreliable. Their view is relatively recent, and much objected.

Against this LilyM introduces an unreliable source, but continues to cite it saying “It was said that Joseph was…” etc. Continuing to rely on this source is not helpful to her argument.

Her evidence against the hadith is her own statement that she’s seen one or two Moslems who dispute them.

That any adult, 40, 50, 60, 70, or whatever (and it is only here that age is irrelevant because any adult is an adult) has sex with a child is abhorrent.

She thinks that a 15 year old with another 15 year old is the same as a 15 year old, and say a 90 year old - or whatever age she’d like to pretend Joseph was… although she also wants to say that Joseph’s relationship with Mary was different than Muhammad’s with Aisha’s, anyway! The difference is one of intent, based on knowledge, maturity, emotions, etc.

She wants to know what evidence there is, despite me citing it in three posts before she’s even asked that question.

She wants to know what my hang-up is with a 50 year old having sex with a child is, despite me having answered her already.

 

[eliasaph99]

There are apocryphal writings that say Joseph was nearly NINETY when he married Mary, she being twelve.

So I wouldn’t go bringing Mohammed’s age into this.

As has been pointed out numerous times, the sources we have on the age of Mary and Joseph at the time of their marriage are not authoritative.

But, for the sake of argument, let’s suppose that they’re correct.

It is still not an endorsement of a much, much older man marrying a young woman. The circumstances under which Joseph and Mary wed were extraordinary. Their marriage was primarily for the purpose of providing a family for the young Christ and to keep Mary from the shame and abandonment she would have experienced had she bore the child alone. Lastly, by all accounts, Joseph married her intending to respect her vow of chastity. The Holy Family is an exceptional situation, not a norm.

Mohammed married Aisha because he found her attractive at the age of six. He waited until she was nine because she hadn’t begun her menses at six. He fully intended to have sex with her and did have sex with her while she was still a child. He instructed others that what he was doing was lawful and good. In the Quran, he recited a verse pointing to himself as the example for all men to follow for all time.

Very different.

 

[eliasaph99]

You’ve already cited the reason against your own relativist argument.

I’ll repeat it here because you obviously missed it when you wrote it…


Thus…
Evidence from Islamic sources on Aisha: Hadith are ‘strong’ hadith, respected and accepted by most Moslems.

Evidence from Christian sources on Mary: are ‘weak’ and even your Catholic Encyclopedia says that they’re not reliable

Aisha’s age at consummation: 9
Mary’s age: unknown. Worst case scenario was she was 14.
14 is not 9

In summary, we have strong evidence that Aisha was 9. Moslems are permitted to marry a girl aged 9 because of this evidence.

We have next to no evidence about Mary’s age, and the little we have (saying she was 14) is not counted as reliable by anyone.

I have to correct this:

Mary’s age at consummation: Not applicable

The marriage of Mary and Joseph was never consummated in a sexual sense. Plainly evidenced by the visitation of the Angel in Joseph’s dream, it was sealed by God for the benefit of Christ.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

LilyM,
Try telling a judge that you only had sex with one little girl and all the rest of your previous sexual partners are adults, and see if the judge will take it easy on you for that or throw you in the slammer with the other kiddie-rapers.

What normal guy can get it up with a little prepubescent nine year old girl anyway?

 

[Montalban]

LilyM,
Try telling a judge that you only had sex with one little girl and all the rest of your previous sexual partners are adults, and see if the judge will take it easy on you for that or throw you in the slammer with the other kiddie-rapers.

What normal guy can get it up with a little prepubescent nine year old girl anyway?

Indeed! It’s not an issue that he only desired one. She became his ‘favourite’ wife. Despite his earlier rulings on images, he made an exception because she was still playing with her dolls when she became his wife.

I don’t want to actually post what else she did for him, but here’s the citations. It’s disgusting

Sahih Muslim, Number 566. (also listed as Book 002, Number 0566 at usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/002.smt.html#002.0566)

Volume 1, Book 4, Number 232:
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/004.sbt.html#001.004.232

 

[cestusdei]

Let’s cut to the chase. We don’t know exactly how old Mary was, but she was certainly much older then nine. Arguing won’t lead us to her exact age. No Christian church would accept marry a nine year old.

But we do know that Aisha was married to muhammed and had sex with him at nine years of age. Muslims never disputed this until it became embarassing.

Because of this, and because most muslims do accept it, they do not see anything wrong with marrying nine year olds. This is sick, but you won’t find muslims saying it is wrong because muhammed did it. And those are the facts.

If a muslim finds that disturbing then they need to reconsider their view of muhammed.