Mohammed / What our Catholic School is teaching.

[schaick]

I asked on the “Ask the Apologist” forum but really would like some info tonight.
My child’s Catholic School (jr. high) is teaching that Mohammed was the last prophet - not just the “prophet of Islam”, but a real prophet like John the Baptist, etc.

Can someone point me to some documentation that explains what Christians/Catholics believe about Mohammed?

Islam denies the crucifixion of Christ.

What being would want you to believe that GOD faked Jesus’ crucifixion?

 

[Ashurie]

Islam denies the crucifixion of Christ.

What being would want you to believe that GOD faked Jesus’ crucifixion?

Muslims believe that Jesus was A prophet, but he isn’t the one they look up to, in Islam their prophets where men who spoke the word of God., Mohammed being the important one.

To us Jesus is of course the Son of God - Islam doesn’t believe this.

Islam is not Christianity - remember that, it is similar yes, a One God religion…but they are still different.

Are all you going to start listing the other faiths of the world, and put them down because they do not recognise the crucifixion of the Lord?

 

[schaick]

Muslims believe that Jesus was A prophet, but he isn’t the one they look up to, in Islam their prophets where men who spoke the word of God., Mohammed being the important one.

To us Jesus is of course the Son of God - Islam doesn’t believe this.

Islam is not Christianity - remember that, it is similar yes, a One God religion…but they are still different.

Are all you going to start listing the other faiths of the world, and put them down because they do not recognise the crucifixion of the Lord?

Seriously not cool.

Yes other religions deny the divinity of Christ, but as far as I know Islam is the only “religion” that denies the crucifixion.

I put religion in quotes because it is more of an ideology like communism with an allah attached to it.

Denying the crucifixion, saying that allah staged it, substituted someone in Jesus’ place, portrays allah as deceiving.

Again there is only one being that I can think of that would want mankind to not understand that GOD sacrificed HIS SON for us.

 

[Ashurie]

Yes other religions deny the divinity of Christ, but as far as I know Islam is the only “religion” that denies the crucifixion.

I put religion in quotes because it is more of an ideology like communism with an allah attached to it.

Denying the crucifixion, saying that allah staged it, substituted someone in Jesus’ place, portrays allah as deceiving.

Again there is only one being that I can think of that would want mankind to not understand that GOD sacrificed HIS SON for us.

Honestly, with Islam, there has to be some sort symbolism behind it all. Islam does not see Jesus as the Son of God, like we do. Hence, him not being crucified, means they do not see him rising again and living with us once again…and him being heavenly - like how we know him to be.

I am trying not taking sides here, and trying to give a point of view from outside of the box. Especially when we are talking about two hugely prominent faiths here, Christians believe their religion is the true one, and then the Muslim’s believe that their’s is too.

But in the end, I believe in Jesus, who is the Son of God, but have no doubt that there was a guy called Mohammed who went around and established Islam, 100s of years later.

 

[rinnie]

According to Islam that is true. I don’t understand the context, and must rely on your post that does not give enough information to digest.

You seem to be very troubled over this.

Are you upset that they are teaching your child, about other Abrahamic beliefs that are not yours?

Why?

I think you hit the nail on the head. I think that they were teaching what Islam belief is.

And I agree with you why would teaching what other faiths believe worry her.

What I would do is simply ask the teacher to explain what exactly is being taught then I think this would all be cleared up.

Here is what bothers me about these kind of threads. No offense to anyone but people take things like this and run with it. If this is indeed being taught thats one thing. But misunderstands lead to more and more and here we go.

But I believe you are correct in saying this is showing what that faith believes. And where is that wrong? Because if you can not discuss other faiths you can not see where they teach something opposite then what the Church teaches.

Personally I think this is a valuable thing to teach. Because it would make a more educated Catholic in my book.

 

[rinnie]

Just had a thought, is this teacher a regular teacher at the school? Or was she just a relief/substitute teacher? Was just thinking while I was reading the previous post, that maybe this teacher was just a relief and didn’t really know what she was saying - I have had a few relief teachers like that when I was in high school…yep, final year of High School, got a relief teacher for History - who taught us nothing.

Another good point. Before it was always Priests and Nuns teaching. Very few that were not. And trust me they kept EVERYONE in line. Not just the Students.

If this was to happen and a Child would ask the Nun or Priest this would have been nipped right now.

Again another possibility. But only she can go and find out the truth.

But another thing she can do. If the teacher is teaching this load that student with information and have the student call the teacher on it.

My first question I would ask the teacher is this. Why is it God gave us 2 things. Reason and History.

If Mohammed was what you are claiming he was, why did History not predict it. As it did with John the Baptist and Christ? Where is this in ST or SS. That ought to keep the teacher quite busy.

The O.T states clear on how we will know Christ. It predicts that John would be the forerunner for Christ. Where is this Mohammed in scripture. Again that ought to be interesting.

Then do your homework and help you kid.

 

[Ashurie]

I think you hit the nail on the head. I think that they were teaching what Islam belief is.

And I agree with you why would teaching what other faiths believe worry her.

What I would do is simply ask the teacher to explain what exactly is being taught then I think this would all be cleared up.

Here is what bothers me about these kind of threads. No offense to anyone but people take things like this and run with it. If this is indeed being taught thats one thing. But misunderstands lead to more and more and here we go.

But I believe you are correct in saying this is showing what that faith believes. And where is that wrong? Because if you can not discuss other faiths you can not see where they teach something opposite then what the Church teaches.

Personally I think this is a valuable thing to teach. Because it would make a more educated Catholic in my book.

And it is~ The Australian Catholic University here in Melbourne has “Islamic Studies” as a subject area, something that isn’t even studied in other Universities - although my University does have “Buddhist Studies” - thats what Religious Education in schools should be about.

 

[jakasaki]

snip

Hence, him not being crucified**, means they do not see him rising again and living with us once again…**and him being heavenly - like how we know him to be.

I’ve bolded the above in black font for your attention:

Your statement is incorrect.

Muslims/islam believes that Jesus will return for final judgement day.

They believe Jesus will destroy Christianity - Break the Cross - Kill the Swine - Get rid of the tax…

And make islam the only religion on the planet.

They also believe after Jesus accomplishes this, he will live on earth for 40 years, get married and then die.

 

[FromTheAshes777]

Thank you “random guy on the internet”. You said many things I would have. The problem is, this teacher does not appear to just be teaching about other religions - which I have no problem with at all - but rather teaching them about other religions in a way that does not align with Catholicism, basically stating that “Mohammed was a prophet, although Catholics don’t believe that”. Now, it could be her intent was to simply convey that other religions believe other things, but she didn’t convey that well. My child is fairly well-versed in Catholicism, and actually pointed out that Christians/Catholics believe revelation ended with the last Apostle - but the teacher still came back with “well, that is what Catholics believe, but he was a prophet”. The teacher is new and young, so it could be she got a bit confused and perhaps in over her head and didn’t research this topic well enough to teach it properly. I am talking with her today to learn, from her perspective, what she said and what she was trying to convey, and to ask her to clarify her teaching from a Catholic perspective since, as you said so well, “random guy”, this is a Catholic School and I expect them to convey authentic Catholicism without questioning it or implying relativism by saying “well, that is what Catholics believe…” with a questioning tone. I feel very comfortable talking to this teacher so I’m sure the conversation will go well, and I’m giving her the benefit of the doubt that she didn’t intend to mislead the kids, just perhaps didn’t teach her lesson plan in the best way for this age group.

any update on the discussion with the teacher?

 

[St_Francis]

And it is~ The Australian Catholic University here in Melbourne has “Islamic Studies” as a subject area, something that isn’t even studied in other Universities - although my University does have “Buddhist Studies” - thats what Religious Education in schools should be about.

It could possibly dispel any fear that Islam that may have, it is also quite healthy to be both taught their own faith along with other faiths - and I am taking this in a teacher’s POV (being a student-teacher) - because then they would be able go out after graduation and not be afraid of people just because of their religion, or meet and befriend people of other faiths, learn from them on how they follow their faith and vice versa.

At my University there is a obvious Islamic presence (with a equally Christian presence too), but I have befriended a few Islamic girls and we have discussed to the differences in our faiths. And I remember the times before 11 Sept, and the whole Islamic terrorist stuff, so it doesn’t affect me as much, as a much younger person would, who would have been bombarded that Islamic people are terrorists, no thanks to the media, government etc. They would be too afraid to even talk to them.

I am only putting that idea out there

It is very good to teach even Catholic about other religions is that it should be taught in the context of/ this is what such and such a religion teaches. In a secular school, all religions should be taught this way: in a Catholic school, Catholocism should be taught as the truth, like this: Christ rose from the dead… Moslems believe that Mohammed was the last prophet.

While we must respect the human dignity of all, we should not put their beloefs on a par with our own. Catholics do not believe that Mohammed was a prophet, and this should not be taught in a Catholic school.

As a quick example of bad teaching, in my daughter’s secular history book, they wrote: Christs’s followers said that he [sic] rose from the dead… an angel appeared to Mohammed. The latter should have been: Mohammed said that an angel appeared to him.

 

[St_Francis]

The school may be a Catholic school; not all that is taught in a Catholic school is Catechism. There can be a discussion on your school’s above alleged teaching ONLY if the subject taught was Catechism.

This is absurd. The children’s parents are paying for a Catholic education, not a secular education with a catechism class attached. As much of the curriculum as possible should be Catholic, even using Catholic pictures and word problems in the math books.

For those who truly believe in Catholicism, it is *actually true. *It is actually true the King Louis IX of France was a saint and is now jn Heaven. It is *actually true *the God commanded St Joan of Arc was commanded by God to lead the armies of France. And in a Catholic school, these things should be taught as if they are true, not in a secular way which pits our beliefs on a par with Santa Claus living at the North Pole.

 

[Bezant]

I asked on the “Ask the Apologist” forum but really would like some info tonight.
My child’s Catholic School (jr. high) is teaching that Mohammed was the last prophet - not just the “prophet of Islam”, but a real prophet like John the Baptist, etc.
Can someone point me to some documentation that explains what Christians/Catholics believe about Mohammed?

Muhammed and his message came centuries after Christian public revelations ended, and did not conform with those revelations.

Therefore Christianity doesn’t have a “belief” about Muhammed, but rather an absence/rejection of belief.

It is in the same manner that Judaism doesn’t have a proper “belief” about Jesus, but an absence/rejection of belief in him. His revelation came centuries after Micah, and did not conform to those previous revelations.

Since there is an absence of belief in Muhammed, it’s an absurd exercise concerning the question of whether or not his revelation was the product of insanity, a misunderstanding… None of what he said adds or detracts to what we believe in, anyway.

What IS our concern is our relations with the Muslims, and theirs with us.

Are you sure that’s what your child’s Catholic school is teaching (that according to Catholic belief, Muhammed is the last prophet)?

 

[rinnie]

And it is~ The Australian Catholic University here in Melbourne has “Islamic Studies” as a subject area, something that isn’t even studied in other Universities - although my University does have “Buddhist Studies” - thats what Religious Education in schools should be about.

I agree. Because if you do not confront what goes against the word of God how can we learn.

The O.T predicted Christ. It happened he fulfilled ever single word of the O.T. Christ told us that the next person to come would be him the same way he left us.

He left through the clouds and he will come back that way. He told us he would send the Holy Spirit the Advocate to lead us unitl that time.

It happened the Advocate came to the Church on the Day of Pentecost and has been leading the CC for over 2000 years. Reason and History.

 

[rinnie]

Well, a prophet is a person who claim to have revelations from God. I am sure the Bible and the Church agree with this definition. But they also point out that there are true and false prophets.

And what did Christ say. He said the CHURCH is the Pilar of all truth. To go to the Church. Not to look for another prophet. He never said that. He said indeed that there would be false prophets.

But CHrist said to stick to the teaching of the Church. The Church he would lead by the power of the Holy Spirit. Now if he sent the Holy Spirit to lead the church what would a prophet tell us that the Holy Spirit cannot?

There you go Reason and History. And we must teach our children ourself also to read the scripure and go by the teachings of the Church to understand it.

 

[Bezant]

Yes other religions deny the divinity of Christ, but as far as I know Islam is the only “religion” that denies the crucifixion.

That, I don’t know for sure, but is irrelevant anyway. Perhaps you consider the Crucifixion a more important event than the Resurrection, as, for whatever reason, you’re not upset that Islam denies the Resurrection.

I put religion in quotes because it is more of an ideology like communism with an allah attached to it.

You know very little of communism or Islam to make a comparison like that. You do realise that Marx’s communism’s quite anti-religion, do you?

Denying the crucifixion, saying that allah staged it, substituted someone in Jesus’ place, portrays allah as deceiving.

Arguably, failing to reveal to humankind that God was in fact a Trinity is equally deceiving, if there is no reason to justify it.

 

[josephback]

I asked on the “Ask the Apologist” forum but really would like some info tonight.
My child’s Catholic School (jr. high) is teaching that Mohammed was the last prophet - not just the “prophet of Islam”, but a real prophet like John the Baptist, etc.
QUOTE]

Yikes! And this was a CATHOLIC school??!! I don’t have the Catechism on me but it has a section near the start on Scripture that says something like “the Church cannot accept any new revelations which claim to change or correct the revelation of Scripture.” The school is teaching contrary to Church beliefs.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

This is absurd. The children’s parents are paying for a Catholic education, not a secular education with a catechism class attached.

With all due respect to the OP and what she is paying for a “Catholic education”, it is most people’s experience that it would barely qualify as “Catholic”.

"If you want your children to fight for their faith, send them to public school. If you want them to lose their faith, send them to Catholic school." ~ Abp. Fulton Sheen

At my parish (FSSP), most parents homeschool. Some of the parents send their children to a small independent Catholic school where it’s about half SSPX families and half FSSP families and they also have a homeschooling co-op program for homeschool kids to come in once a week. I don’t know anyone who sends their children to Catholic school or public school (not to say that there aren’t any, I just haven’t met them – homeschoolers are the overwhelming majority).

It’s fine to teach children to be nice to Muslims while at the same time teaching them that Islam is a wicked religion from Hell intent on destroying and/or enslaving us. None of the Muslims I have met have tried to cut off my head and they all have seemed like decent people, but I also know that there is a 1500 year history that can’t be ignored and around the world, Muslims are still slaughtering Christians (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant) by the hundreds. Islam uses a vague idea of God to justify many very bad things.

Here is what St. Thomas says of Islam:

[Mohammed]
seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure to which the concupiscence of the flesh goads us. His teaching also contained precepts that were in conformity with his promises, and he gave free rein to carnal pleasure. In all this, as is not unexpected, he was obeyed by carnal men. As for proofs of the truth of his doctrine, he brought forward only such as could be grasped by the natural ability of anyone with a very modest wisdom. Indeed, the truths that he taught he mingled with many fables and with doctrines of the greatest falsity. He did not bring forth any signs produced in a supernatural way, which alone fittingly gives witness to divine inspiration; for a visible action that can be only divine reveals an invisibly inspired teacher of truth. On the contrary, Muhammad said that he was sent in the power of his arms – which are signs not lacking even to robbers and tyrants. What is more, no wise men, men trained in things divine and human, believed in him from the beginning, Those who believed in him were brutal men and desert wanderers, utterly ignorant of all divine teaching, through whose numbers Muhammad forced others to become his followers by the violence of his arms. Nor do divine pronouncements on the part of preceding prophets offer him any witness. On the contrary, he perverts almost all the testimonies of the Old and New Testaments by making them into fabrications of his own, as can be. seen by anyone who examines his law. It was, therefore, a shrewd decision on his part to forbid his followers to read the Old and New Testaments, lest these books convict him of falsity. It is thus clear that those who place any faith in his words believe foolishly.

Hilaire Belloc:

Mohammed’s teaching never developed among the mass of his followers, or in his own mind, a detailed theology. He was content to
accept all that appealed to him in the Catholic scheme and to reject all that seemed to him, and to so many others of his time, too complicated or mysterious to be true. Simplicity was the note of the whole affair; and since all heresies draw their strength from some true doctrine, Mohammedanism drew its strength from the true Catholic doctrines which it retained: the equality of all men before God – “All true believers are brothers.” It zealously preached and throve on the paramount claims of justice, social and economic.

 

[Bezant]

Fair point… I do think we ask too much, expecting people to exercise their brains longer than they can run their mouths.

 

[nablaise]

And what did Christ say. He said the CHURCH is the Pilar of all truth. To go to the Church. Not to look for another prophet. He never said that. He said indeed that there would be false prophets.

But CHrist said to stick to the teaching of the Church. The Church he would lead by the power of the Holy Spirit. Now if he sent the Holy Spirit to lead the church what would a prophet tell us that the Holy Spirit cannot?

There you go Reason and History. And we must teach our children ourself also to read the scripure and go by the teachings of the Church to understand it.

The Holy Spirit commands us to be holy; not to add to or remove from the Truth.
‘not a prophet’ and ‘not a true prophet’ don’t mean the same thing.

 

[schaick]

That, I don’t know for sure, but is irrelevant anyway. Perhaps you consider the Crucifixion a more important event than the Resurrection, as, for whatever reason, you’re not upset that Islam denies the Resurrection.

You know very little of communism or Islam to make a comparison like that. You do realise that Marx’s communism’s quite anti-religion, do you?

Arguably, failing to reveal to humankind that God was in fact a Trinity is equally deceiving, if there is no reason to justify it.

LOL! Well if Jesus wasn’t crucified HE could rise!

The crucifixion denial is the easiest one to point out.- even historians know Jesus was crucified. It doesn’t take a Christian believer or Scripture to point to the fact that Jesus was in deed crucified.

Islam is very anti religion-everyone one’s but the Muslim’s. Even then fellow Muslims are killed for not being Muslim enough.

Actually if you were to study Islam you would see there is very little moral teaching and theology in Islam - Quran or hadith. Look at the long lists of atributes/names of allah given in the Quran.

Some are very questionable others- no idea of what constitues that atribute is give:
jannah.org/articles/names.html

Ar-Rahmaan
The Compassionate, The Beneficient, The One who has plenty of mercy for the believers and the blasphemers in this world and especially for the believers in the hereafter.

Quran verse about compassion:
48.29 Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.

Al-Qahhaar
The Subduer, The Dominant, The One who has the perfect Power and is not unable over anything

Al-Muthil
The Dishonorer, The Humiliator, He gives esteem to whoever He willed, hence there is no one to degrade Him; And He degrades whoever He willed, hence there is no one to give Him esteem.

Al-Qaabid
The Constricter, The Retainer, The Withholder, The One who constricts the sustenance by His wisdomand expands and widens it with His Generosity and Mercy.

Ad-Daarr
The Distresser, The One who makes harm reach to whoever He willed and benefit to whoever He willed.