Mohammed / What our Catholic School is teaching.

[swariffin]

The number of outright lies and fabrications in this one post is probably greater than the number of suras in the Quran. Impressive.

Given what has happened during the Taliban ruling in Afghan, and what has happened in Indonesia (though not in global scale), I can see some truth from that.

 

[chuckfrmvalyfrg]

Jharek Carnelian ,
I guess my " passive-aggressive " diagnosis is correct . YOU invoked that comment about , "communism was previously the folk devil of choice in the U S and other places … " and inserted it in this thread and when I quote you and challenge you on it you don’t want to engage . In reality , your invocation on this thread of the above quote was the irrelevancy .If you have so much respect for remainng on topic , why did you go off topic in the first place . You are the one who let the cat out of the bag ! But you won’t defend it . There is a word for that .
I don’t think you get it . I want to discuss an issue YOU RAISED in this thread ! I am responding to YOUR issue , not mine . YOU raised the communism issue in regard to the US , not me ! Yet you will not even acknowledge your own words in this thread . What is wrong with you ? Then you get condescending ! We have a rejoinder in the US when that happens , Pound Sand !
You could have responded to me in your last post , but you didn’t . I suspect you really don’t want to . I responded vigorously and all I get in return is an effete response .
I am at a loss regarding the purpose of the last paragraph of your post . How is it relevant to either of my two posts in this thread ? It’s as though I asked you what time it is and you responded , " green " . What do other faiths have to do with communism as " a folk devil of choice " , at least in the context I addressed them ?

 

[rinnie]

Jharek Carnelian ,
I guess my " passive-aggressive " diagnosis is correct . YOU invoked that comment about , "communism was previously the folk devil of choice in the U S and other places … " and inserted it in this thread and when I quote you and challenge you on it you don’t want to engage . In reality , your invocation on this thread of the above quote was the irrelevancy .If you have so much respect for remainng on topic , why did you go off topic in the first place . You are the one who let the cat out of the bag ! But you won’t defend it . There is a word for that .
I don’t think you get it . I want to discuss an issue YOU RAISED in this thread ! I am responding to YOUR issue , not mine . YOU raised the communism issue in regard to the US , not me ! Yet you will not even acknowledge your own words in this thread . What is wrong with you ? Then you get condescending ! We have a rejoinder in the US when that happens , Pound Sand !
You could have responded to me in your last post , but you didn’t . I suspect you really don’t want to . I responded vigorously and all I get in return is an effete response .
I am at a loss regarding the purpose of the last paragraph of your post . How is it relevant to either of my two posts in this thread ? It’s as though I asked you what time it is and you responded , " green " . What do other faiths have to do with communism as " a folk devil of choice " , at least in the context I addressed them ?

Listen, She told you a number of times this is not what the subject of the thread is about. She said open up another thread and she would join you in the discussion.

It is not that she won’t talk to you about it, if she makes this the subject she will be in trouble for changing the subject and so will you and they will close down this thread.

Please keep to the subject of the thread or make another one. There is no other way for her to be more clear to you.

 

[rinnie]

Yes - it went very well. Our exchange had to be through email, but she was very nice and understanding. She apologized and said she didn’t mean to teach or imply anything against the Catholic faith and she would clarify her comments to the kids so they wouldn’t be confused. She was trying to teach this from a ‘secular perspective’ but realizes now that was not appropriate in a Catholic school - apparently another teacher clarified to her that she needs to teach from a Catholic perspective, and this teacher was very supportive of my concern, which I appreciated. It’s nice to have teachers who are willing to discuss concerns in a nice way - it worked out well.

This is good to hear and thanks for clearing up this matter. It is what I figured just a misunderstanding. So glad you were concerned enough to hear what you child was learning to stumble across this problem.

Ahhh if all of the problems could be cleared up in such a simple manner

 

[chuckfrmvalyfrg]

Listen, She told you a number of times this is not what the subject of the thread is about. She said open up another thread and she would join you in the discussion.

It is not that she won’t talk to you about it, if she makes this the subject she will be in trouble for changing the subject and so will you and they will close down this thread.

Please keep to the subject of the thread or make another one. There is no other way for her to be more clear to you.

rinnie ,
Listen, I did NOT introduce the theme that , “…since communism was previously the folk devil of choice in th US and other parts…” into this thread , JC did . Why didn’t you challenge her when she interjected what you both feel is not a relevant theme in this thread ? Why am i challenged for challengig her/him ? Why the selective outrage ?
And if you were up to speed , you would already know that I have opened this topic on another post . I’m curious , do know what a yenta and a yachna ( sp. ? ) are ?

 

[rinnie]

rinnie ,
Listen, I did NOT introduce the theme that , “…since communism was previously the folk devil of choice in th US and other parts…” into this thread , JC did . Why didn’t you challenge her when she interjected what you both feel is not a relevant theme in this thread ? Why am i challenged for challengig her/him ? Why the selective outrage ?
And if you were up to speed , you would already know that I have opened this topic on another post . I’m curious , do know what a yenta and a yachna ( sp. ? ) are ?

Honestly I have no idea what is even going on. Since you were new here, I was just trying to point out to you that if you want to speak on another subject no matter what it is, you must open a new thread. Thats all.

I know that usually one thread leads to something else. Like if I would bring up the Pope for some strange reason someone could say where does the Pope get his authority. NEW THREAD. See what I am saying. We must leave this and go into another because we could get in trouble for de-railing the thread. Do you see what I am saying.

If you feel I was outraged it was not my intention. I was just hoping I could make clearer what was being said. I was just trying to help you out is all. Sorry

 

[rinnie]

That’s Okay I am a she and everyone thinks I am a he. But usually I just let it slide. See not we are de-railing

 

[Mickey]

She was trying to teach this from a ‘secular perspective’ but realizes now that was not appropriate in a Catholic school - apparently another teacher clarified to her that she needs to teach from a Catholic perspective, and this teacher was very supportive of my concern, which I appreciated.

I am wondering how this will be done. As far as I know, there is no official teaching in the Catholic Church on the person and/or role of Muhammed. The Church stays silent.

 

[schaick]

Muslim do not worship Jesus and they say HE failed as a prophet because we do not have HIS teaching.

 

[sedonaman]

What is CAIR?

"Although it presents itself as a civil rights group, CAIR actually has numerous links to Islamic supremacist and jihad groups. CAIR founders Omar Ahmad and Niwad Awad (who still serves as CAIR’s executive director) were present at a Hamas planning meeting in Philadelphia in 1993 where they and other Hamas operatives conspired to raise funds for Hamas and to promote jihad in the Middle East. CAIR has steadfastly refused to denounce Hamas and Hizballah as terrorist groups. Several former CAIR officials have been convicted of various crimes related to jihad terror: … " Read the rest here: jihadwatch.org/2010/10/appeals-court-removed-unindicted-co-conspirator-status-for-cair-isna-nait.html

 

[sedonaman]

And yet…I have a Catholic “handbook” which says to respect other religions…that is going by the Vatican II teachings…

But it just seems to all go out the window when it comes to anything Islamic, doesn’t?

EDIT: Quotes from “The Essential Catholic Handbook” and is a Redemptorist Pastoral Publication.

Undoubtedly there are people of all beliefs who are honestly seeking the truth about God. However, when it comes to Islam, a common logical error is, “I know some nice Muslims, therefore, Islam must be good.”

In their eagerness to be respectful of those seekers of truth, a large percentage equate Muslims with Islam itself. I think the distinction should be made that Muslims are people and Islam is an ideology. While we must respect their dignity as human beings, are members of the Flat Earth Society practicing real “science”? Are we obligated to respect their belief in a flat earth and accord it valid science status simply because they are entitled to human dignity?

Here biblestudying.net/islam1.html is a somewhat long but good objective analysis of Islam and its claims vis-a-vis Judaism and Christianity. It concludes:

So, we conclude from this intensive study that we must reject Islam’s claims as well. There are two main reasons for this rejection. First, though Islam has historically identifiable origins, these origins do not provide any reason for concluding that Mohammed’s teachings are an accurate view of God, the universe, and mankind. Instead, the circumstances surrounding the origin and rise of Islam can clearly be understood simply as a product of normal human affairs and ambitions.
…
the evidence that Islam does offer to substantiate the accuracy of its claims has shown to be invalid. Islam contends that it is the final successor to the Judeo-Christian tradition, which it claims expected Islam and which Islam also claims to fulfill and confirm. However, as we have shown above neither Judaism nor Christianity allows for the teachings of Mohammed. And additionally, Islam undermines the fundamental claims made by both of its supposed predecessors.
…
Islam is also invalidated by its claims to come from and uphold the Judeo-Christian tradition, which Islam claims is from God. Since the Judeo-Christian tradition in no way permits Islamic teaching, then Islam must be in error either in its own teaching, which deviates from that of Judaism and Christianity, or Islam must be in error in its assertion that the Judeo-Christian tradition is of God.

Others have made this people/ideology distinction, looked at the ideology separately, and as a result, are beginning to question the idea that Islam is a religion. newmediajournal.us/staff/sobieskey/2009/03192009.htm
and
frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=26769

Another poster here has mentioned that the church has been silent on Islam of recent. Perhaps it is because whenever it speaks about it, a lot of Christians get killed. Does that tell you anything?

 

[qui_est_ce]

You brought up the Communism is the Folk Devil which has no relevance to the OP. You should ask the moderator to remove the post. I’ve done this to my own posts in the past.

 

[swariffin]

Undoubtedly there are people of all beliefs who are honestly seeking the truth about God. However, when it comes to Islam, a common logical error is, “I know some nice Muslims, therefore, Islam must be good.”

In their eagerness to be respectful of those seekers of truth, a large percentage equate Muslims with Islam itself. I think the distinction should be made that Muslims are people and Islam is an ideology. While we must respect their dignity as human beings, are members of the Flat Earth Society practicing real “science”? Are we obligated to respect their belief in a flat earth and accord it valid science status simply because they are entitled to human dignity?

Here biblestudying.net/islam1.html is a somewhat long but good objective analysis of Islam and its claims vis-a-vis Judaism and Christianity. It concludes:

Others have made this people/ideology distinction, looked at the ideology separately, and as a result, are beginning to question the idea that Islam is a religion. newmediajournal.us/staff/sobieskey/2009/03192009.htm
and
frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=26769

Another poster here has mentioned that the church has been silent on Islam of recent. Perhaps it is because whenever it speaks about it, a lot of Christians get killed. Does that tell you anything?

Agreed. Your reference is also interesting. I think that Muhammad knew very well that a leader, whether is a king, emperor, president, sultan, fuhrer, or whatever terminology you can think of, CAN be overthrown. But, a prophet CAN’T. Therefore, Muhammad chosed to take a role of a prophet, but still enjoy the life of those leaders.

 

[SnakeMauler]

I asked on the “Ask the Apologist” forum but really would like some info tonight.
My child’s Catholic School (jr. high) is teaching that Mohammed was the last prophet - not just the “prophet of Islam”, but a real prophet like John the Baptist, etc.

Can someone point me to some documentation that explains what Christians/Catholics believe about Mohammed?

We don’t take any particular position regarding Mohammad. The Church has no obligation to think up an “official position” on every wacko to ever come along in history claiming to be some kind of prophet otherwise we’d waste a lot of time.

 

[sedonaman]

… I think that Muhammad knew very well that a leader, whether is a king, emperor, president, sultan, fuhrer, or whatever terminology you can think of, CAN be overthrown. But, a prophet CAN’T. Therefore, Muhammad chosed to take a role of a prophet, but still enjoy the life of those leaders.

Good observation.

 

[Portrait]

Oh my. This is definitely NOT Church teaching. Muhammad denied the divinity of Christ, his atoning death, and the doctrine of the Trinity.
I’m all for acceptance of Muslims and interfaith dialogue, but this is going way too far.

Dear ClamDigger,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

Unfortunately “interfaith dialogue” has become an increasingly unprofitable exercise in recent years because of the absence of any emphasis upon the evangelisation of adherents of pagan religions. Given that the very purpose of evangelism is to invite a man, be he a Muslim or a Jew etc., to become a formal member of the Catholic Church, this is a deplorable neglect of the Church’s missionary mandate (see St. Matt. 28: 18-20). Is not the raison d’etre for the Church’s existence, “to make disciples of all men”?

The problem with modern ecumenical enterprise is that all religions are, for practical purposes, placed on an equal footing, which tends to blur and even hide the truth that the Catholic Church is the one true Church established by Christ to which men must submit and give their allegiance if they are to be eternally saved.

How sad, when men are persishing in false religions, that we reticently procrastinate and no longer authoritatively proclaim to the world that men must bow to the Social Kingship of Christ, in order to find true peace and eternal salvation. Instead, we have a false irenicism, which is eminently forgettable, and ineffectual discussion about Catholics and Muslims sharing their faith and the ‘call to Islam’ and Christian mission being conducted in a spirit of collaboration. Why, not even the tragic events of “9/11” can bring home to us the truth that there can be no collaboration or sharing between the true religion of Christ and the religion invented by Muhammad. Interreligious dialogue is utterly fruitless owing the many obstacles between the two religions. For one, Muslims reject belief in the Holy Trinity, and thus many other core Christian doctrines, the Divinity of our Lord among them. These are insuperable and fundamental problems which no amount of dialouge will ever surmount, even among men of goodwill.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[Cavaradossi]

Given what has happened during the Taliban ruling in Afghan, and what has happened in Indonesia (though not in global scale), I can see some truth from that.

I agree with this. Just because Islam is now presenting a new, conversion-friendly face in the Western world does not change the fact that when Muslims are in the majority, their religion compels them to take control of the secular government and establish a theocracy under which all non-Muslims are forced to pay the jizyah and live as Dhimmi (or to face conversion by the sword, if you are not a person of the book). The myth that religious minorities and women live freely in Muslim countries is one of the greatest evils perpetrated today by the multicultural relativists (infuriatingly, the same ones who enjoy demonizing Christianity for the way some Christians treated women and minorities several hundred years ago) who would like to portray all sorts of evils as being permissible on the grounds of, “that’s just their way of life.” The moment that Saudi Arabia (or any other 99% Muslim nation) allows for women to drive, to associate with men without having a male escort and to travel freely—the moment that Saudi Arabia allows for freedom of religion, where one can legally convert Muslims to other religions and the crime of apostasy no longer carries a draconian punishment (usually death or imprisonment)—is when I’ll believe that the leopard has changed its spots. After all, ye shall know them by their fruits, we are told. I have seen the fruits of Islam, and I for one wish never to approach that tree.

 

[Portrait]

I agree with this. Just because Islam is now presenting a new, conversion-friendly face in the Western world does not change the fact that when Muslims are in the majority, their religion compels them to take control of the secular government and establish a theocracy under which all non-Muslims are forced to pay the jizyah and live as Dhimmi (or to face conversion by the sword, if you are not a person of the book). The myth that religious minorities and women live freely in Muslim countries is one of the greatest evils perpetrated today by the multicultural relativists (infuriatingly, the same ones who enjoy demonizing Christianity for the way some Christians treated women and minorities several hundred years ago) who would like to portray all sorts of evils as being permissible on the grounds of, “that’s just their way of life.” The moment that Saudi Arabia (or any other 99% Muslim nation) allows for women to drive, to associate with men without having a male escort and to travel freely—the moment that Saudi Arabia allows for freedom of religion, where one can legally convert Muslims to other religions and the crime of apostasy no longer carries a draconian punishment (usually death or imprisonment)—is when I’ll believe that the leopard has changed its spots. After all, ye shall know them by their fruits, we are told. I have seen the fruits of Islam, and I for one wish never to approach that tree.

Dear Cavaradossi,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

Jolly well said, old chap, that’s the spirit.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[Ranp]

This is an obvious intrusion by the CAIR organization. Their authority isn’t suppose to extend itself to places like Catholic Schools.

Catholicism and Islam have a long history of violence and oppression; particularly on the side of Islam. You’ll note that, currently, today, the Catholic Church has remained quiet when it involves matters of Islam. The thing is that it is a fact that we Christians cannot and will not tolerate Muslims for the many horrid things they impose on others in our Modern societies. For one, Sharia Law dictates a great many humiliating evils which would be bestowed upon us, Catholics and Christians (of all denominations), as a part of their dhimmitude.

The fact is that Christians, every Christian, in the world, even, despises Islam, wether they want to agree to it or not; because by not doing so, they agree to the evils Islam imposes, which means:

-No female rights
-No singing in church
-No preaching
-Providing Muslims special care; which even the richest Christian would not receive.
-No ringing church bells.
-Heads must be shaved (Like the Jews from the 1940s under Nazi rule)
-Christians and Jews must wear only humiliating clothes
-No Homosexuals are allowed to live
-Anyone outside the Dhimmitude (which constitutes Christians and Jews and a few other faiths) must die. (That means atheists are suppose to die under Islamic rule)
-Then there’s the special taxes for being Christian at all. (So you have regular taxes and “special” taxes for being Christian or Jewish)

So it is my opinion that you can’t be a Christian and agree with Islam.

The church needs to hold it’s schools like that priest in the philippines holds his church; with an iron fist. Muhammad is no prophet to us; especially when in the al-aqsa mosque in Jerusalem, in the direction of the Holy Sepulcher it’s written in Arabic, to mock us followers of Christ’s true church on Earth, “God has no son”.

For many people, even people here, they will say,“But MontChevalier, we must not encourage hatred.”

Well that’s true, we shouldn’t. But I say,“God created hatred, so we can hate evil.”

-MontChevalier

This was a great post by someone who actually has knowleage of Islam and its violent history. I love muslims as I do all other human beings but at the same time I do hate the religion of Islam and its many evils.

 

[Portrait]

This was a great post by someone who actually has knowleage of Islam and its violent history. I love muslims as I do all other human beings but at the same time I do hate the religion of Islam and its many evils.

Dear Ranp,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

The plain fact is that Islam, equally with paganism, failed to realize the true nature of God and that He is a God of life and love. Moreover, He is not some god who dwells like a solitary star apart, but the God whose pulsating life and limitless love find expression in the gracious condescension of His self-revelation. “The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us”.

There can be no solidarity between our most holy religion and Islam because the two faiths cannot co-exist together in peace and harmony, especially given, as you observe, Islam’s many evils. Islamic-Christian dialogue is doomed to failure and Catholics schools/colleges must return to teaching our youth the uniqueness and superiority of the Christian religion, and must do so unashamedly. All of us must resist the false ecumenism which forbids us to preach with conviction, “salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4: 12); Christ alone is “the way, the truth and the life”, for He alone is the Saviour of mankind.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax