Mohammed

[jakasaki]

On the Bible prediction of Mohammad, technically, I don’t think the Koran says that. Only Muslims desparate to “prove” their religious beliefs.

There is a passage in their koran which states something like the prophet of islam is mentioned in the bible as “Ahmed”.

 

[jakasaki]

Here is the Sura 61

6 And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: “O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of an Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.” But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, “this is evident sorcery!”

 

[Armyvet007]

• From humble beginnings in Arabia, the first generation of Muslims created the (up until then) largest empire the world had ever known.

So the most important thing about Islam for you is it’s worldly territorial conquests? Good to know. I guess Islam “wins” because its use of “fire and sword” [that’s how empires are built] to spread farther in it’s first generation “beats” the more peaceful spread of Christianity during its first generation. Of course, we then have to conclude that the pagan Mongol faith is more valid then Islam because not only did the Mongols create a larger empire, they took over Islamic lands as well.

 

[sedonaman]

“it turns around and relies on the Bible for its own verification.”

I don’t think Islam does, but a lot of Muslims use the type of argument you are talking about. …

This proof is long because of the many references quoted. You can skip over them to get the thesis and go back later to verify if needed.

So long as both religions declared each other to be false, we’d have to decide which of the two (if either) was true. But since Islam inherently and repeatedly relies on Judaism and Christianity being of divine origin, the claims and sacred texts of Judeo-Christianity would have to be compatible with Islam. If the sacred texts of Judeo-Christianity contradict Islam while Islam upholds their reliability and divine origin, then Islam is in contradiction of itself. – Evidentiary Religions – Islam Introduction, biblestudying.net/islam1.html

Any claim that relies on error for proof of its truth is in error itself. To overcome this, Islam claims that only parts of the Bible are “corrupt”, but this doesn’t wash. Most counter by asking, which parts are corrupt? But consider which Biblical doctrinal statements might be true according to Islam. For example, is the Sermon on the Mount true? I have asked many Muslims and have never gotten an answer, and the reason is simple: a consistent one doesn’t exist. If the Sermon on the Mount is a corruption, Islam would have to disparage the desirable attributes of the Beatitudes; if it is not a corruption, where does it appear in Islamic foundational texts since they are supposed to return us to the truth?

 

[Amoon]

Hi Amoon. I know you didn’t ask me specifically but here’s something you may mind helpful.

Your confusion is nothing new. But you must read the Bible in the proper context. Besides the Jews knew EXACTLY what Jesus meant.

Jesus always spoke of one who was with authority. The Jews already got the point that people (their own) were starting to follow because Jesus they realized he was the one the Prophets spoke about, someone directly from God Himself who will set things right and God will always keep his promises.

Some Bible verses you can have a look at:

And the Lord God (Greek. ho kurios ho theos, the Lord the God) of the spirits of the prophets sent his angel to show his servants the things which must be done shortly" (Rev. 22:6).

So who is the Lord God who sent “his angel” in this verse? Also look at verse 22:16, *** which is 10 verses later***, reveals to us who “the Lord God” is who has "sent his angel: " I** Jesus have sent my angel, to testify to you these things in the churches**. Thus Jesus is clearly - the Lord God of the spirits of the prophets!

In Luke 12:8-9, angels are called “angels of God”; in Matthew 13:41, angels are called “[Jesus’] angels.” Jesus and God are synonymous. Jesus does what only God can do.

He forgives sins by his own authority ( in the OT at Isaiah 43:25; even Mark 2:5-9). He judges the world in Matthew 25:31-46. Also see Genesis 18:25 and Joel 3:12 (OT)

Jesus refers to himself with the divine name—I am —in several places. This “I am” formula is a reference back to the Divine Name revealed to Moses in Ex. 3:14 (OT).

Jesus refer to himself as “I am” four times in John’s Gospel (pls see John 8:24; 58; 13:19 and 18:5-6), but when he does so in John 8:58, the Jews to whom he was speaking understood his meaning because they immediately wanted to stone him for blasphemy! ( See my first sentence)

Jesus places his word on the same level as the word of God—the Old Testament. “You have heard it said . . . but I say to you . . .” (see Matt. 5:21-28). Look at the OT, in contrast to the prophets of old who always made clear the word they were speaking was not their own: "The word of the Lord came unto me, saying . . . " (pls see in OT Jer. 1:11; Ezek. 1:3, etc.). Thus** Only God possesses this kind of authority**.

Jesus is referred to as “equal” In John 5:18, the author comments on why the Jews wanted to kill Jesus: “Because he called God his Father, making himself equal with God.”

Paul refers to Jesus when he was “in the form (Gk. morphe; in Greek usage this word means the set of characteristics that makes a thing what it is) of God” thinking “his equality with God” **not something to be grasped onto, but emptying himself and becoming man **( Pls see Phil. 2:6-10

1. Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
   
   7But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man.
   
   8He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross.
   
   9For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above all names:
   
   10That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth.

Thus In proper context Paul assumes his readers already knew Jesus to be equal with God, the Father.

Jesus calls himself “the Lord of the Sabbath” in Mark 2:28. The Sabbath is referred to as the “Sabbath of Yahweh” in the Old Testament ( see in the OT in Ex. 20:10; see also Isaiah. 8:13, referred to in 1 Peter 3:15; and Joel 2:31-32, both quoted in Acts 2:20-21 and in Rom. 10:13).

In Revelation 22:6, 13, 16, we find Jesus revealing himself to be “the Alpha and the Omega . . . the beginning and the end”.

Peace.

MJ

As I expected, there is no single verse where Jesus says explicitly worship me as god. All these verses you mentioned are your own interpretations. Jesus is god because he says “I am”? I am god? I am the only one to be worshiped? Did he say that? And then he must be god because he calls God his father? I don’t get how this makes him equal to God. He even said “I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.” How can one be equal and greater at the same time?

In contrary, Prophet Jesus explicitly says that no one should worship him, and that you will be following the doctrines of man, not of God. “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”

If Jesus was god as you claim, he would have mentioned that clearly. Why do you think he didn’t do that? Why he didn’t ask you to worship him? Why did he himself pray to God?

 

[LtTony]

Here is the Sura 61

6 And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: “O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of an Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.” But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, “this is evident sorcery!”

Oh, so Mohammad predicts himself.
Convenient.
There are all sorts of mental gymnastics and contradictions that some muslims go through to demonstrate the Bible predicts Mohammad. If they were smart, they wouldn’t even bring the Bible into it.

As sedonaman said above:

Any claim that relies on error for proof of its truth is in error itself. To overcome this, Islam claims that only parts of the Bible are “corrupt”, but this doesn’t wash.

 

[LtTony]

As I expected, there is no single verse where Jesus says explicitly worship me as god. All these verses you mentioned are your own interpretations. Jesus is god because he says “I am”? I am god? I am the only one to be worshiped? Did he say that? And then he must be god because he calls God his father? I don’t get how this makes him equal to God. He even said “I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.” How can one be equal and greater at the same time?

In contrary, Prophet Jesus explicitly says that no one should worship him, and that you will be following the doctrines of man, not of God. “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”

If Jesus was god as you claim, he would have mentioned that clearly. Why do you think he didn’t do that? Why he didn’t ask you to worship him? Why did he himself pray to God?

You’re wrong. Either you lack comprehension or you intentional ignore what you read (or don’t read).

He DID say clearly say He was God. That’s why they killed him; they only kill you for the gravest of sins. His enemies used the claim to get Christ executed.

(Obviously, that is why Mohammad said “they killed him not” in the Koran but provides absolutely no explanation.)

Read the sentence and apply thought to it. Especially, in the context of the entire chapter

Christ said over and over that He is the way, the truth, the light, the life. He keeps saying how awesome He is. He says He FORGIVES sin. So naturally, people start to worship Him.

He doesn’t stop them.

Read your own quote. Look up the definition of vain.
dictionary.reference.com/browse/vain
To turn your question around: why didn’t He clearly NOT to worship. People definitely were worshipping. Why only 14 words out of 750 in the chapter for something so important?

prime.org/vain.html
godvine.com/bible/Matthew/15-9
biblestudytools.com/matthew/15-9-compare.html
(Google the quote for more links. Take this on; you owe it to yourself.)

“How can one be equal and greater at the same time?”

Because He is God.
And He is man.

God can do anything.

You are so pre-occupied with not accepting Christ and disproving christianity (as Islam directs) that you ignore a figure you supposedly hold in high regard. Forget the Trinity, the Christ is God part for now. Try just understanding everything else that Christ says. No Mohammad, just Christ.

You have a problem with worshipping Christ. OK. Don’t worship Mohammad, either.

 

[sedonaman]

As I expected, there is no single verse where Jesus says explicitly worship me as god. All these verses you mentioned are your own interpretations. Jesus is god because he says “I am”? I am god? I am the only one to be worshiped? Did he say that? And then he must be god because he calls God his father? I don’t get how this makes him equal to God. He even said “I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.” How can one be equal and greater at the same time?

In contrary, Prophet Jesus explicitly says that no one should worship him, and that you will be following the doctrines of man, not of God. “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”

If Jesus was god as you claim, he would have mentioned that clearly. Why do you think he didn’t do that? Why he didn’t ask you to worship him? Why did he himself pray to God?

The topic is Mohammed, not Jesus. If you wish to discuss Jesus, start another thread.

 

[LtTony]

Thank you for keeping us focused.

 

[jakasaki]

As I expected, there is no single verse where Jesus says explicitly worship me as god.

In a nutshell this is the thinking behind the muslim mind.

Here we are in the 7th century and a man comes along and proclaims he is the prophet of Allah and starts to gather followers. Islam is now created. That’s all it took. For Mohamad to say I am the prophet of Allah.

He is rejected by the Jews & Christians because they know they need to test him and he fails the tests.

 

[sedonaman]

As I expected, there is no single verse where Jesus says explicitly worship me as god. All these verses you mentioned are your own interpretations. Jesus is god because he says “I am”? I am god? I am the only one to be worshiped? Did he say that? And then he must be god because he calls God his father? I don’t get how this makes him equal to God. He even said “I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.” How can one be equal and greater at the same time?

In contrary, Prophet Jesus explicitly says that no one should worship him, and that you will be following the doctrines of man, not of God. “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”

If Jesus was god as you claim, he would have mentioned that clearly. Why do you think he didn’t do that? Why he didn’t ask you to worship him? Why did he himself pray to God?

Anyone can stand up and say, “I have a message about [or from] God.” How does Amoon determine if that person is being truthful or just spinning dreams?

 

[jakasaki]

Anyone can stand up and say, “I have a message about [or from] God.” How does Amoon determine if that person is being truthful or just spinning dreams?

I’ll take an educated guess SedonaMan and say that his answer will be something like:…

That cannot happen… our prophet Mohamad is the seal of prophets. No other prophet will come after him.

 

[sedonaman]

I’ll take an educated guess SedonaMan and say that his answer will be something like:…

That cannot happen… our prophet Mohamad is the seal of prophets. No other prophet will come after him.

That does not explain how he determines that Mohammed is true prophet.

 

[MartinJordan]

As I expected, there is no single verse where Jesus says explicitly worship me as god. All these verses you mentioned are your own interpretations. Jesus is god because he says “I am”? I am god? I am the only one to be worshiped? Did he say that? And then he must be god because he calls God his father? I don’t get how this makes him equal to God. He even said “I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.” How can one be equal and greater at the same time?

In contrary, Prophet Jesus explicitly says that no one should worship him, and that you will be following the doctrines of man, not of God. “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”

If Jesus was god as you claim, he would have mentioned that clearly. Why do you think he didn’t do that? Why he didn’t ask you to worship him? Why did he himself pray to God?

You are basing it on the Quran and that is understandable, and just picking one verse here and there from the Bible is certainly not the right method to make the respective points.

Please read the Bible in the view of how it was understood by the writers and interpreters and believers of that time. Not today’s context nor the context of one book that came 600 years after Christianity ( it’s obvious Mohammad clearly misunderstood several things due to this).

Research history if you must, but turning a blind eye to what has been explained, you’ll be climbing too high a mountain.

MJ

 

[PumpkinSeed]

Amoon, just a question, but have you read the Bible?

 

[jlhargus]

Mark

 

[sedonaman]

I’ll take an educated guess SedonaMan and say that his answer will be something like:…

That cannot happen… our prophet Mohamad is the seal of prophets. No other prophet will come after him.

If that isn’t avoiding the question, it is saying that Mohammed is a prophet because Mohammed is a prophet.

 

[jakasaki]

If that isn’t avoiding the question, it is saying that Mohammed is a prophet because Mohammed is a prophet.

… Mohamad is a prophet because he said so.

 

[jlhargus]

In contrary, Prophet Jesus explicitly says that no one should worship him, and that you will be following the doctrines of man, not of God. “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”

JL: Amoon you have been misled, by those who have taken your scripture out of context. Jesus NEVER said, no one should worship him. The following is the context for your erroneous interpretation.

[Mark 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him [Jesus], Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? 6 **He [Jesus] answered **and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. ]

Jesus is the Word made flesh God become man. That’s how much God loves us He came and gave Himself for all men.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 - 13.
14 And THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And **Thomas answered **and said unto him, MY LORD AND MY GOD. 29 **Jesus saith **unto him, **Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. **

JL: If Jesus was not God then He would have rebuked Thomas for calling Him God.

If Jesus was god as you claim, he would have mentioned that clearly. Why do you think he didn’t do that? Why he didn’t ask you to worship him? Why did he himself pray to God?

JL: Jesus was God but He came as man to redeem His children.

[Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in **Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and TOOK UPON HIM THE FORM OF A SERVANT, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.]

 

[sedonaman]

…If Jesus was god as you claim, he would have mentioned that clearly. Why do you think he didn’t do that? …

Because He didn’t want to be in the same inescapable dilemma that Mohammed is in: a self-proclaimed prophet tooting his own horn. Here are only a few of the problems faced by the followers of Mohammed, only shortly after his time.

So, what is the answer to my question: How does Amoon determine if a prophet is a true prophet? If I said to you, “I am God; worship me”, what would you do? Would you worship me because I said it? Why or why not?