Mohammed's Ascension to Heaven versus Jesus' Ascension?

[inJESUS]

According to the uncanny Islamic tenet, Jesus was killed not by Jews, but by Allah, who took Him to heaven for the sake of saving Him from death. Jesus in the Koran states that Allah caused Him to die before the day of Judgment (Surah 5:117).

and that He is going to give alms as long as He lives. Is He giving alms in heaven?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Actually in that story the official 5 prayers were given to Muhammad through Allah, here is how that had happened:

-Allah told Muhammad to pray 50 times a day.
-Muhammad got back to Prophet Moses who told him go back and ask for reduction.
-Muhammad went back to Allah, and the prayers reduced by 10.
-Muhammad got back to Prophet Moses who told him go back and ask for more reduction.
-Muhammad went back to Allah, and the prayers reduced further by 10.
-Muhammad got back to Prophet Moses who told him go back and ask for more reduction.
-Muhammad again went back to Allah, and the prayers reduced by 10.
-And Muhammad repeated this coming and going between Moses and Allah till the prayers became only 5 a day.

I would like to ask my fellow Muslims, does that really make sense that Allah had changed his mind frequently in a single night, honestly is it logic !!!

Actually it makes a ton of logical sense. What’s so beautiful about it is the mercy it shows. Every single time Muhammad asked Allah for mercy, Allah showed mercy.

 

[Sister_Amy]

According to the uncanny Islamic tenet, Jesus was killed not by Jews, but by Allah, who took Him to heaven for the sake of saving Him from death.

Please demonstrate your ability to participate in the discussion at an intelligent level. If Jesus was taken by Allah before his death, he didn’t die. He wasn’t killed by Allah.

Jesus in the Koran states that Allah caused Him to die before the day of Judgment (Surah 5:117).

Rather, that Allah will cause him to die. Just like everyone else.

Thus, Muslims believe that Jesus will return - even though nothing of the sort is implied in their Scripture - to accomplish His so-called incomplete prophetic mission and die for the second time.

Implied? It is explicitly stated in authentic hadith literature, and clearly suggested in the Qur’an. In fact, the Qur’an suggests the idea and the hadith literature explains it.

Some boast of their dead prophet in contrast to those who boast of their risen Savior in heaven. Besides, it is completely natural for Muslims to have the grave of their prophet, who was an earthly king that died a natural death and was buried by his followers into a definite place remaining under the Islamic control for ages.

Earthly king? Is that right? This post, and others of your recent posts, are just not up to par. I’m not sure why your quality of posting has fallen so low… please think a little harder. This is barely worth a reply. Sorry to be so harsh, but really, I feel bad for you here.

 

[inJESUS]

If Jesus was taken by Allah before his death, he didn’t die. He wasn’t killed by Allah.

if the Quran mentions death and then ascention, it means He died first, no? inni mutawwafika thumma rafiuka…death then ascention…what do you think?

and Jesus will give alms as long as He lives…where is He giving alms now? and to who?

Rather, that Allah will cause him to die. Just like everyone else.

 

[Sister_Amy]

if the Quran mentions death and then ascention, it means He died first, no? inni mutawwafika thumma rafiuka…death then ascention…what do you think?

 

[inJESUS]

Find the ayah for me. I have no clue what you’re talking about.

3:55

Right, same sentence for John and Jesus. Jesus is different because Jesus is different.

and the Quran uses the same wording because it uses the same wording…no reason for it? or is it a coincidence that Allah uses the same exact words yet John dies and Jesus does not? what about all prophets dying before Muhammad? what about causing you to die and raising you? what about giving alms as long as He lives?all these turn to mean the opposite Amy?

is Jesus still giving alms in heaven? to whom? is the quranic verse that all died before Muhammad wrong? will cause you to die suddenly have a different meaning? all this to say what in clear Arabic? all this to clear what doubts Amy? all this to say Jesus did not die but someone else did?

 

[Kadaveri]

From the thread you linked me to:

I am quoting the Koran verse that allegedly regards Jesus’ return as a clear sign of the Hour:

Surah 43.61 And most surely it is a knowledge of the hour, therefore have no doubt about it and follow me: this is the right path.

This is the plain verse purified from the brackets inserted by people who deliberately distort their own Scripture! Although many Muslim commentators surprisingly discover Jesus here, their discovery is to no avail because this verse and the whole chapter belong to the period when Mohammad had taught his followers nothing about Jesus’ death or supposed assumption. Since this verse - Mecca period - precedes the verses - Medina period - denying Jesus’ crucifixion and teaching His assumption, it would be impossible for the one devising this sentence to have Jesus in mind while talking about the signs of the Hour.

Is that so. Funnily enough when you quote that verse in context a different picture emerges…

And when the son of Mary is quoted as an example, behold! the people raise a clamour thereat,
And say: Are our gods better, or is he? They raise the objection only for the sake of argument. Verily they are a contentious folk.
He is nothing but a slave on whom We bestowed favour, and We made him a example for the Children of Israel.
And had We willed We could have set among you angels to be viceroys in the earth.
And verily he is a sign of the Hour. So don’t ye doubt concerning it, but follow Me. This is the right path.
And let not Satan turn you aside. Verily he is an open enemy for you.
When Jesus came with clear proofs, he said: I have come unto you with wisdom, and to make plain some of that concerning which you differ. So keep your duty to God, and obey me.
Surely God is my Lord and your Lord. So worship Him. This is a right path.
But the factions among them differed. Then woe unto those who do wrong from the doom of a painful day.
Do they only wait for the Hour, that it shall come upon them suddenly, when they do not know not? (43:57-66)

Sorry, I don’t know whether that came from you deliberately lying or you were just arrogant enough to speak without even checking your facts, but I’ve really lost all interest in continuing this discussion with you now. You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about, at best.

 

[justinthemartyr]

mohammed’s ascension into heaven?

mohammed is still buried and hidden by his followers, he never ascended, thats rediculous. there is no historic evidence of it either, only what is claimed in the book he did not write.

 

[swariffin]

Well Muslims don’t believe Jesus is going to live forever in heaven. But that he is going to return at the end of time to fulfill some more prophecies, and then everybody is going to die, and he will be resurrected on the Day of Judgment like everyone else. It is a miraculous sign.

But not many people have the grave of their Prophet with them, so it’s also kind of an honor for the Muslims, in one interpretation.

Dear Sister,

I don’t mean to be rude. Could you please explain me what do you mean by Jesus you claim will not live forever, but will survive until the end of time? I am confused.

 

[swariffin]

And he married a 9 year old girl. Any man who does so is by definition a pedophile.

]

Dear Brother Bpbasil,

The Quran or Hadits may say that Mohammad marry a 9 year old girl. We can’t justify it as pedophile, by bringing modern standard of living to the past history of 600 AD, can we? In Indonesia today, you can find a 13 years old girl (which is still young although older than 9) to be married, in the remote villages. Such practice is still legal by our traditional standard, although much discouraged by mean of persuasions. If we read that Abraham or Jacob in the OT to have more than one wife, it does not mean that we can practice poligamy today, right? Off course, I do believe that the Quran and Hadits must be reinterpreted just as we have done with our bible.

 

[swariffin]

Actually in that story the official 5 prayers were given to Muhammad through Allah, here is how that had happened:

-Allah told Muhammad to pray 50 times a day.
-Muhammad got back to Prophet Moses who told him go back and ask for reduction.
-Muhammad went back to Allah, and the prayers reduced by 10.
-Muhammad got back to Prophet Moses who told him go back and ask for more reduction.
-Muhammad went back to Allah, and the prayers reduced further by 10.
-Muhammad got back to Prophet Moses who told him go back and ask for more reduction.
-Muhammad again went back to Allah, and the prayers reduced by 10.
-And Muhammad repeated this coming and going between Moses and Allah till the prayers became only 5 a day.

I would like to ask my fellow Muslims, does that really make sense that Allah had changed his mind frequently in a single night, honestly is it logic !!!

Dear Brother Sam,

God also changed His mind, when Abraham prayed before the destruction of Sodom and Gomorah (Genesis 18:16-33). Even to the last 5, the quota could not be met. Only Lot and his family minus his wife survived. That story you bring out is quite similar to this. It is interesting.

 

[Madaglan]

Wouldn’t “assumption” rather than “ascension” be more appropriate to Mohammed? Jesus ascended to heaven on his own accord, while Mary was assumed into heaven. Well, I don’t think Mohammed was a true prophet, but I’m just putting forth these terms for consideration.

 

[MugenOne]

How do you explain the following news?

8 years old girl seeking divorce from 30 years old man.

yementimes.com/article.shtml?i=1145&p=front&a=2

Saudi Arabia: Young woman married at 10 years old, must pay to obtain divorce

adnkronos.com/AKI/English/CultureAndMedia/?id=1.0.2085641017

Riyadh, 18 April (AKI) - A 23 year old girl, forced to marry at ten in Saudi Arabia was ordered to pay the equivalent of 16,750 euros to obtain a divorce from his husband, according to Saudi daily al-Watan.

The girl, deemed as a ‘rebel’ by a judge in the capital, Riyadh, was forced to marry a 67-year-old man due to her family’s economic problems, in exchange for a dowry of 100,000 Saudi riyals (16,750 euros).

 

[Angelos]

Please demonstrate your ability to participate in the discussion at an intelligent level. If Jesus was taken by Allah before his death, he didn’t die. He wasn’t killed by Allah.

Who appointed you a judge and ruler over me? The very Koran you trust and read clearly states that Allah caused Jesus to die before He took Him to Himself (3:55 and 5:117). Please read your Scripture carefully before criticizing my posts for the sole sake of criticizing them.

Rather, that Allah will cause him to die. Just like everyone else.

You are again reading into your scripture what is actually NOT there. According to those two verses, Jesus’ death occurred before His assumption.

Implied? It is explicitly stated in authentic hadith literature, and clearly suggested in the Qur’an. In fact, the Qur’an suggests the idea and the hadith literature explains it.

I believe vice versa. The Hadith makes up the story and the Koran verse is misinterpreted to support that hoax!

Earthly king? Is that right? This post, and others of your recent posts, are just not up to par. I’m not sure why your quality of posting has fallen so low… please think a little harder. This is barely worth a reply. Sorry to be so harsh, but really, I feel bad for you here.

You believe Mohammed to be a celestial king? When did you change your faith? It is actually you who is consistently writing poor replies that attack my character rather than my ideas

 

[dolphinlove]

Please demonstrate your ability to participate in the discussion at an intelligent level. If Jesus was taken by Allah before his death, he didn’t die. He wasn’t killed by Allah.

Earthly king? Is that right? This post, and others of your recent posts, are just not up to par. I’m not sure why your quality of posting has fallen so low… please think a little harder. This is barely worth a reply. Sorry to be so harsh, but really, I feel bad for you here.

And you send me a private message and ask me why im so rude
You really need to ask yourself what does ‘rude’ mean

 

[Angelos]

Is that so. Funnily enough when you quote that verse in context a different picture emerges…

You definitely did not do your homework! If you had read my post in its entirety, you would not have posted this reply.

And when the son of Mary is quoted as an example, behold! the people raise a clamour thereat,
And say: Are our gods better, or is he? They raise the objection only for the sake of argument. Verily they are a contentious folk.
He is nothing but a slave on whom We bestowed favour, and We made him a example for the Children of Israel.

I fail to see how the word “example” entails Jesus’ descension from heavens on the day of Judgment. These verses overtly narrate Jesus’ earthly mission with nothing implying His assumption or even the denial of crucifixion.

Besides, a verse in the same Surah says:
Surah 43:55-56. So, when they angered Us, We punished them and drowned them every one.And We made them a thing past, and an example for those after (them).

Do these verses, in your humble opininon, mean that Pharaoh and his folk are supposed to return on the last day solely because they were made examples for mankind???
Kadaveri;3583139:

And had We willed We could have set among you angels to be viceroys in the earth.
And verily he is a sign of the Hour.

So don’t ye doubt concerning it, but follow Me. This is the right path.
And let not Satan turn you aside. Verily he is an open enemy for you.

Not every Koran translation has the same reading! Islamic scholars and commentators have not reached an agreement as to what the pronoun in the sentence refers.The two translations I have read do not only contradict your quotation but also dissent from each other.

43.61] And most surely it is a knowledge of the hour, therefore have no doubt about it and follow me: this is the right path. (IT instead of HE)

43:61. And lo! verily there is knowledge of the Hour. So doubt ye not concerning it, but follow Me. This is the right path. (personal pronoun excluded)

When Jesus came with clear proofs

, he said: I have come unto you with wisdom, and to make plain some of that concerning which you differ. So keep your duty to God, and obey me.
Surely God is my Lord and your Lord. So worship Him. This is a right path.
But the factions among them differed. Then woe unto those who do wrong from the doom of a painful day.
Do they only wait for the Hour, that it shall come upon them suddenly, when they do not know not? (43:57-66)

The clause “When Jesus came with clear proofs” pertains to Jesus’ prophetic mission on earth. This is why it is not a surprise for us to see the same sentences in the 19th chapter of the Koran, where baby Jesus speaks to his people from his cradle (19:34-39)

Sorry, I don’t know whether that came from you deliberately lying or you were just arrogant enough to speak without even checking your facts, but I’ve really lost all interest in continuing this discussion with you now. You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about, at best.

ROTFL. Read those Koran verses in Surah 19 and 43 comparatively to find out the truth and what causes you to make a faulty interpretation of your scripture. Further, the word “descension” is surprisingly missing from the verses which you claim to be hard evidence for Jesus’ secınd coming. Let me repeat it once more (hopefully for the last time): This Surah does not talk about Jesus’ death, nor does it deny the crucifixon. No one reading the Koran at that time knew, even through fantasy, that Jesus was not crucified but was assumed into heaven. Thus, it WAS impossible for people at that time to construe the sign of the hour as Jesus’ descension without talking of His assumption first!

I respect your decision. However, people who interpret this verse as you are not different from people who assume that Noah wore jeans, drank coke, and watched the eurovision song contest on tv during his voyage in the ark

 

[Reuben_J]

Dear Brother Bpbasil,

The Quran or Hadits may say that Mohammad marry a 9 year old girl. We can’t justify it as pedophile, by bringing modern standard of living to the past history of 600 AD, can we? In Indonesia today, you can find a 13 years old girl (which is still young although older than 9) to be married, in the remote villages. Such practice is still legal by our traditional standard, although much discouraged by mean of persuasions. If we read that Abraham or Jacob in the OT to have more than one wife, it does not mean that we can practice poligamy today, right? Off course, I do believe that the Quran and Hadits must be reinterpreted just as we have done with our bible.

I can understand that ancient tribal practice allowed minors to get married and having intercourse. However Mohammad did not impress me by succumbing to this practice. Having sex with a child is simply wrong. He who claimed to unite the Arabs to worship the one God could not see the beastiality in having sex with a child beats me. He who participated in this ancient tribal practice set the example for Muslims to follow today - you have it, they marry at age 9 or 10. It’s buffling that the last prophet did not set the wrong right. I know, I know, the Muslims here would say, what’s wrong with having sex with a child as long the consent is mutual. Maybe I’m too hard on people to see paedophille as evil, I don’t know.

 

[Nickkname]

I don’t think any fan of modern literature would agree with you there. The Night Journey is so well written and poignant that it has become a standard motif. You can see it everywhere from James Joyce to Kubrick’s film Eyes Wide Shut, among ten thousand other examples.

Well, it’s a good thing fans of modern literature aren’t gods.

Getting back on topic: Without passing judgment on the authenticity of the ascension of Mohammed, I’ll just say that I have yet to hear a sound explanation for why the Prophet had to ascend into heaven. I mean, couldn’t God have spoken to him directly? Or through an angel? Or was the ascension into heaven meant to prove to that there is no God but God and Mohammed is his messanger? (I mean no offense to Muslims or to Islam).

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Please no posts about marriage of young girls, that is a different topic (and not a very productive one) for a different thread.

Some new information came up in this thread that I cant figure out. Do Muslims believe Jesus died before He ascended? It really doesnt make sense for a dead person to ascend, so I dont know if this is true or not.

 

[scapularkid8]

Not sure if this has been mentioned or is even relevant, but I heard on a history channel special that not only is the rock holy to Muslims, but Jews as well because they believe in their cosmology it is from beneath that point if God were not Merciful, the entire of Creation on Earth would be engulfed in the “floods” that he subdued and continues to hold back to allow land to exist. Sort of like the Dutch-boy-at-the-****-in-Amsterdam image…just something I though I’d add

:twocents: