Mohammeds revelations- who/what revealed them?

[ralphinal]

Hi

Thank you for missing me and remembring me. You are a peaceful and polite person; I like you.

I was busy with peaceful discussion on an AtheistAgnostic forum; they are also good people, but Catholics are more friendly, humanly and charitable. I feel quite at home here.

Thanks

Don’t be too hard on them Paar.

Some of them simply do not have the gift of faith. Some refuse to release the hold that sin has on them. They all need our prayers.

 

[Angelos]

Hi

One of my friends here has written:

“Christianity has many prophets, apostles, and martyrs who are all witnesses to virgin birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus”

My submissions:

1. For virginity of Maryam, there can be no witnesses; as mentioned by me, except GodAllahYHWH the Omnipresent.

What you get from the notion of “witness” is rather different from the same notion given in the New Testament. When we say Jesus’ apostles and disciples witnessed Jesus’ resurrection and miraculous conception, we do not mean that all those people were present at the time of Jesus’ resurrection and angel’s annunciation and were enabled to see the related events. The New Testament actually teaches that Jesus’ disciples became witnesses to His resurrection after they had seen Him risen. In the Acts Jesus Himself tells His apostles and other followers when and how they will be His witnesses:

Acts 1:8 You shall receive the power of the Holy Spirit coming upon you, and you shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth.

1. For death of Jesus on Cross; there was no proper witnesses.

Your deliberate choice of the qualifier “proper” preceding the noun “witness” reflects your deliberate designation of some witnesses as improper through your baseless personal judgments. Nevertheless, this objection of yours ironically confirms the fact that some people witnessed Jesus’ passion, which is the only thing that matters during our current debate.

a. There was no qualified physician there to certify that Jesus had died; all laymen guesses

Here are my objections to your theory in the form of questions:

1) Was there supposed to be an expert (physician) to certify Jesus’ and other crucified men’s death? Was asking an expert to confirm a criminal’s death a crucial part of Jewish and/or Roman procedure related to capital punishment?

2) Was there a certain physician at the feet of the cross to doubt Jesus’ death? Who was he/she?

3) How would Jesus naturally survive so much physical pain and torture, hunger, thirst, loss of blood, so many wounds - including the fatal one at his side - without a miracle? If He could have made a miracle out of His will, why would He have waited until after humiliation through crucifixion?

b. There are conflicting reports in the gospels; some say the disciples fled away from the scene. Name how many from the twelve were present?

Could you please quote the NT verses where all of the apostles and disciples are reported to have fled from the scene in contrast to some other verses where some of the apostles are reported to have witnessed the crucifixion?

You seem not to have read the Gospel of John, where Jesus declares from the cross His beloved disciple as His mother’s true son! (John 19:26)

c. If a few were there; they were at a distance. If they were there for the purpose of witnessing; none of them went upto Jesus close enough to certify that Jesus had died. Please remember, on this single point Paul constructed the whole edifice of the present “Christianity” at Rome, so it has to be seen in full details.

I shall not respond to your baseless arguments about Christianity, which reveals your hatred towards Paul, whom Islamic assertions turn into a false god mightier than Allah!

John the evangelist was close enough to Jesus to confirm His death. More, Jesus was laid in the tomb by Nicodemus and Joseph or Arimathea, both of whom were not idiots that could have mistaken an alive man for a dead one.

1. The edifice of witnessing perhaps rests only with a Roman constable as per the story of NTBible, I think.

I have already debunked this assertion.

1. As for the resurrection; when Jesus’ death on cross never happened; there is no question of any resurrection.

Where are your witnesses and/or physicians to support your arguments?

You will certainly fail this lesson if you do not read the Bible carefully and study harder!

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Sacred Scripture foretold about the deception of the evil one who comes as an angel of lite, not to mention these are to be accursed if they bring another gospel other than the one that was given to us by Jesus and his apostles, even if they the apostles themselves should bring another gospel are to be accursed.

The following applies to both Islam and Mormonism:

**Galatians 1:6-9 I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you by the grace of Christ for a different gospel, not that there is another. But ther are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if WE or an ANGEL FROM HEAVEN SHOULD PREACH TO YOU: a gospel other than the one that we preached to you; LET THAT ONE BE ACCURSED!

vs.9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone PREACHES to you a gOSPEL other than the one that you recieved, let that one be accursed!**

So the apostle announces before hand 400 years later Islam comes on the seen and 1900 years later Mormonism both recieved their doctrines from an angel of lite that brought to their (manly) founders a different gospel, God’s sacred Word makes judgment on them before they come into existance and makes the prophet and or angel accursed for bringing another gospel, and ANYONE who preaches another gospel other than the one Jesus gave his Church, all these the prophet, angel, and the teacher are all accursed.

Can any Muslim or Mormon please answer this question? Why would you follow a leader who brings another gospel after the Word of God fore warns you before it came to pass not to accept another gospel either from an angel from heaven, or anyone else according to Galatians above?

 

[paarsurrey]

Galatians 1:6-9 I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you by the grace of Christ for a different gospel, not that there is another. But ther are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ.

Hi

Galatians is written , I think, by Paul. Where is the Gospel of Jesus as hindted in it? I think none exists by this name. Paul was only lost in his clever imaginations , in my opinion.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Don’t be too hard on them Paar.

Some of them simply do not have the gift of faith. Some refuse to release the hold that sin has on them. They all need our prayers.

Hi

I value your advice.

Thanks and regards

 

[paarsurrey]

In the Acts **Jesus Himself tells **His apostles

Acts, I think, is not written by Jesus or authenticated by him.

Thanks

 

[Angelos]

Acts, I think, is not written by Jesus or authenticated by him.

Thanks

I agree with you that Acts was not written by Jesus Himself. Quoting one’s words from a book does not necessarily mean that the book was written by the owner of the utterance. Nevertheless, the fact that none of the books of the New Testament was written or dictated by Jesus Himself does not necessarily mean that the “quoted words” were not uttered by Jesus. All authors of the New Testament wrote their books/epistles through inspiration and as witnesses to Jesus Himself and His teachings.

I strongly disagree with you that the Acts was not authenticated by Jesus unless what you get from the word authentication is finding in the text Jesus’ direct words confirming the author. Had Jesus confirmed the reliability of the text through His words within the text, nothing would change since people would then deny the authenticity of Jesus’ statements of authorisation in the text! What a paradox indeed!

Take it this way: Is the Koran authenticated by Mohammad himself? NO! Is the Koran authenticated by Allah himself in the text? YES. BUT who can prove it? NOBODY. It is a matter of faith.

Thanks.

 

[Angelos]

Hi

Galatians is written , I think, by Paul. Where is the Gospel of Jesus as hindted in it? I think none exists by this name. Paul was only lost in his clever imaginations , in my opinion.

Thanks

Your mistaken presumption results from your failure to comprehend the true meaning of the word Gospel. Gospel of Christ simply means the Good News of salvation proclaimed by Christ to His apostles and disciples. Actually, everything related to Jesus is the Good News, including the annunciation of His birth and His manifestation through baptism by John. However, His resurrection is the summit of His Gospel.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Hi, Paarsurey, I am sorry you are unable to anwer the question about the accursed who preaches another gospel of Jesus. Paul seems to be your topic of discussion to your response. You try to discredit Paul a zealot for God, a Pharisee learned man of the written and oral Torah. I dont think you have the authority to disqualify Paul’s mental capacity of religious authority, Does this 2000 year old teaching from the New Testament cause doubt about your founding faith, because that is what this teaching from God’s word is addressing, another gospel to which you are claiming your religious faith outside of Jesus Gospel again 400 years prior to Islam. Can you at least answer truthfully that you do follow another gospel other than the one Paul, Jesus taught? Or am I to assume you accept the Gospel of Jesus?

Before you answer the above question, can you reread Galatians below?

The following applies to both Islam and Mormonism:

Galatians 1:6-9 I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you by the grace of Christ for a different gospel, not that there is another. But ther are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if WE or an ANGEL FROM HEAVEN SHOULD PREACH TO YOU: a gospel other than the one that we preached to you; LET THAT ONE BE ACCURSED!

vs.9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone PREACHES to you a gOSPEL other than the one that you recieved, let that one be accursed!

 

[AlessandraRose]

Definitely NOT from God. God would’nt lie.

 

[Sam_777]

Definitely NOT from God. God would’nt lie.

I totally agree.

 

[planten]

Can any Muslim or Mormon please answer this question? Why would you follow a leader who brings another gospel after the Word of God fore warns you before it came to pass not to accept another gospel either from an angel from heaven, or anyone else according to Galatians above?

** It is not fair to ask any question about the revelation after the gospel. Most of the bible is written by paul who was an enemy of Jesus. Jesus had not predicted the conversion of paul. It was paul who had come in the name of Jesus. Muhammad did never come in the name of Jesus.

It was of utmost importance that Jesus should have told his disciples that paul the enemy will convert soon. But he did not tell. Jesus only gave the good news of a parclete (AHMAD, the comforter) whom you have twisted to mean something else. Instead of the parclete, the church has run after paul who is not mentioned in the gospel.

So paul was the false prophet. Jesus had said that many will come in his name. So please tell who came in the name of Jesus?

Also, do not restrict or end the blessing with your gospel. What happened to thos epeople who lived before your gospel? And what will happen to all the people of the world without their own message from God? Your view of the divine blessing is very narrow. Please do not mind.**

 

[inJESUS]

** It is not fair to ask any question about the revelation after the gospel. Most of the bible is written by paul who was an enemy of Jesus.**

only Paul talked about the crucifixion and resurrection? no, yet you accuse Paul . At least your own prophet quoted Paul and your traditions mention him as an apostles.

Jesus had not predicted the conversion of paul. It was paul who had come in the name of Jesus. Muhammad did never come in the name of Jesus.

 

[Irenaeus07]

** It is not fair to ask any question about the revelation after the gospel. Most of the bible is written by paul who was an enemy of Jesus. Jesus had not predicted the conversion of paul. It was paul who had come in the name of Jesus. Muhammad did never come in the name of Jesus.

.**

What sect of Islam do you follow??? Just curious…

 

[morning_star777]

actually muslims belive some part of bible wat is useful for them.like planten claimed that paul was the false prophet.but if i will claim that muhammad is the false prophet or antichrist then?cuz newtestament claimed that who will denied jesus as god they are devil.and muhammed denied jesus as a god.so?don’t use bible reference to proclaim saint paul as false prophet.we can also prove that muhammad is the false prophet.cuz he denied jesus as god

 

[inJESUS]

to show that Muslims do not know what they’re talking about, and that is their zeal to make God untruthful, they follow anything, here is what the earliest Muslims said about Paul:

means, ‘We supported and strengthened them with a third Messenger.’ Ibn Jurayj narrated from Wahb bin Sulayman, from Shu’ayb Al-Jaba’i, “The names of the first two Messengers were Sham’un and Yuhanna, and the name of the third was** BULUS**, and the city was Antioch…

Shamun=Peter
Yuhanna=John
Bulus=PAUL.

that’s Ibn Kathir

“Among the apostles and those disciples around them, whom Jesus sent out, **there were Peter and his companion Paul.” **(Thalabii, Qisas al-Anbiyaa)

Al-Tabari:

“Abu Ja’far says: They assert that after Tiberius, Palestine and other parts of Syria were ruled by Gaius, son of Tiberius, for four years. He was succeeded by another son, Claudius, for fourteen years, following which Nero ruled for fourteen years. He slew Peter and crucified Paul head down. For four months Botlaius [Vittelius] ruled thereafter. Then Vespasian, father of Titus whom he sent to Jerusalem, ruled for ten years. Three years after his rise to power, forty years after the ascension of Jesus, Vespasian sent Titus to Jerusalem. Titus destroyed it and slew numerous Israelites in his wrath over the fate of Christ…”

and here is Allah repeating Paul’s “uninspired” words:

However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him.” (1 Corinthians 2:9)

Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, “ALLAH SAID, ‘I have prepared for My righteous slaves (such excellent things)
as no eye has ever seen, nor an ear has ever heard nor a human heart can ever think of.’”
(Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 589)

Here is Allah repeating the “uninspired” words of Matthew:
Narrated AbudDarda’:
I heard the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) say: If any of you is suffering from anything or his brother is suffering, he should say: Our Lord is Allah Who is in the heaven, holy is Thy name, Thy command reigns supreme in the heaven and the earth, as Thy mercy in the heaven, make Thy mercy in the earth; forgive us our sins, and our errors; Thou art the Lord of good men; send down mercy from Thy mercy, and remedy, and remedy from Thy remedy on this pain so that it is healed up. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 28, Number 3883)

“After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.” Matthew 6:9-13

Here is Muhammad stealing Jesus’ words and applying them to himself:

Narrated AbuUmamah
Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said, “Blessed is he who has seen me, but seven times blessed is he who has not seen me but has believed in me.”
Ahmad transmitted it. (Number 1688; taken from the ALIM CD-ROM Version)

“Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’” John 20:29

Here’s another quote from the “uninspired” Matthew Matthew 25:31-46
:

Hadith Qudsi 18:

On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: Allah (mighty and sublime be He) will say on the Day of Resurrection:

O son of Adam, I fell ill and you visited Me not. He will say: O Lord, and how should I visit You when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: Did you not know that My servant So-and-so had fallen ill and you visited him not? Did you not know that had you visited him you would have found Me with him? O son of Adam, I asked you for food and you fed Me not. He will say: O Lord, and how should I feed You when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: Did you not know that My servant So-and-so asked you for food and you fed him not? Did you notknow that had you fed him you would surely have found that (the reward for doing so) with Me? O son of Adam, I asked you to give Me to drink and you gave Me not to drink. He will say: O Lord, how should I give You to drink when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: My servant So-and-so asked you to give him to drink and you gave him not to drink. Had you given him to drink you would have surely found that with Me.

 

[paarsurrey]

“so We reinforced them with a third”

and the name of the third was** BULUS**, and the city was Antioch…

Shamun=Peter
Yuhanna=John
Bulus=PAUL.

that’s Ibn Kathir.

Hi

Please quote from Quran - the primary and the foremost source of guidance of Muslims.

Ibne Kathir might have an opinion only; having no authority from Islam/Quran/Muhammad.

Thanks

 

[inJESUS]

Hi

Please quote from Quran - the primary and the foremost source of guidance of Muslims.

Ibne Kathir might have an opinion only; having no authority from Islam/Quran/Muhammad.

Thanks

opinion or not, what is clear is that Paul was seen as an apostle among early commentators…criticizing Paul is a later Islamic invention.

 

[planten]

opinion or not, what is clear is that Paul was seen as an apostle among early commentators…criticizing Paul is a later Islamic invention.

You have said that Jesus sent paul. That is not right. Paul never met Jesus. the supposed meeting (vision) is not reliable. And paul addressed the people in the name of Jesus. Muhammad never did that. So paul can be the false prophet, not Muhammad. Muhaamd addressed every one in the name of the Creator (Allah).

 

[Irenaeus07]

Hi

Please quote from Quran - the primary and the foremost source of guidance of Muslims.

Ibne Kathir might have an opinion only; having no authority from Islam/Quran/Muhammad.

Thanks

So what makes your opinion more authoritative then Ibn Kathir???

Ibn Kathir memorized the Quran, have you???
Do you even know Arabic??? If you don’t know Arabic, how can you properly understand the Quran??? The Quran said, "It was made an Arabic that you understand."

Ibn Kathir knew Arabic do you???

If you don’t know Arabic, that would mean, Ibn Kathir understand the Quran better than you do, and I am merely judging by the standard of the Quran.