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PumpkinCookie
Guest
How can we really enjoy our existence if we believe there is a chance our loved ones will be tormented forever in hell? Sorry, couldn’t resist.
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Aloysium
Guest
Hell is a state wherein there is an absence of love.
I would question the possibility of loving someone who has no love in them.
I am amazed, I really am, that no one feels sorry for Satan, I don’t believe heaven is any less enjoyable because of his lack of presence.
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tonyrey
Guest
You have to take into account that those who are in hell reject everyone except themselves. If they had any love for others they wouldn’t be in a state of total isolation which is the prime cause of their misery. As Aloysium implies, you cannot love some one who constantly rejects you and doesn’t care whether you’re alive or dead. In order to be loved we have to be lovable in some respect. Otherwise those who love us would be insane!
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PumpkinCookie
Guest
So God stops loving those in hell? What motivates his desire to sustain their existence? Hate? Vengeance? Or is he insane? Is there another option according to your statements?
Everyone in hell is just totally evil and selfish? Must be a comforting theory, since I’ve never had the misfortune to interact with someone like that. I guess no one is there. Is this why some can embrace this theology? They suppose hell is a moot reality since no one is there?
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oldcelt
Guest
Not cynical at all. I simply accept that I was lucky to have these people with me as long as I did. If I see them again I’ll be overjoyed…I just don’t think that the odds are very good.
John
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tonyrey
Guest
Luck is a hopelessly inadequate explanation of life. No one lives as if they exist for no reason or purpose even if they reject Design nor do they make important decisions by throwing dice. The best test of any theory is whether it works and faith in the blind Goddess fails miserably. It often has the opposite effect by driving not a few people to despair, depression and death either by suicide or self-neglect. In short “humanism” is a disaster…
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oldcelt
Guest
My belief system does and has worked for many…it is a rationalist/naturalist view of life as we know it. It requires no miraculous intervention by an unseen deity, but accepts that a much greater force was responsible for creation in the broadest sense of that term. We are a result of that creation and must make our way through life as best we can…grasping joy when it is available and dealing with hardship when it comes.
The mere ups and downs of life can drive some people to the sad ends that you mention, regardless of their belief system or lack thereof. I’m looking out the window at a beautiful day and will soon join my fellow creatures for some revels. I’m thankful to the creator for making this possible, even if it was not directly.
John
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tonyrey
Guest
Naturalism is incompatible with deism because it rejects any supernatural reality or activity. At least you are in a position to be grateful to the Creator even though you think He doesn’t know what He is doing! Your half-way house is closer to the truth.
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oldcelt
Guest
I beg you to read some more…the god that Deists believe in is inscrutable and unknowable. Whether he, she, it, has any notion of the totality of creation, is definitely open for discussion.Naturalism is incompatible with deism because it rejects any supernatural reality or activity. At least you are in a position to be grateful to the Creator even though you think He doesn’t know what He is doing! Your half-way house is closer to the truth.
That, is Deism.
John
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tonyrey
Guest
If the Deists’ god is inscrutable and unknowable there is no room for discussion, John! Without Revelation we are completely in the dark. There seems no reason why we exist or whether anything is good or evil. For all practical purposes deism amounts to agnosticism and not worth bothering about as far as I can see, although I may be wrong of course.
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oldcelt
Guest
The discussion lies in what, if any, control God exhibits after creating something. It’s the old micro-manager question. Does God truly create each and every particular directly, or simple create the basics and allow things to flow as they may? I tend strongly toward the latter since that premise, to me, matches best with the observable universe.If the Deists’ god is inscrutable and unknowable there is no room for discussion, John! Without Revelation we are completely in the dark. There seems no reason why we exist or whether anything is good or evil. For all practical purposes deism amounts to agnosticism and not worth bothering about as far as I can see, although I may be wrong of course.
Our lives may have no purpose on a universal scale, but I certainly believe that they do in our little part of that grand universe.
John
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mamlukman
Guest
Studies have shown that more pessimistic people have a more realistic view of the world.
And life is simply a series of chance events. You have very little control–especially at the lower socio-economic levels. Sad but true.
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tonyrey
Guest
Do you include persons?
That is what atheists believe. If life is simply a series of chance events God is redundant.
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mamlukman
Guest
Pessimism: “Our findings revealed that** being overly optimistic** in predicting a better future was associated with a greater risk of disability and death within the following decade,”
(American Psychological Assoc. study-- apa.org/news/press/releases/2013/02/pessimism-future.aspx)
UNY Stony Brook experiment in 1979 that showed** “depressed” students were more realistic about their ability to influence events** (newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/dont-worry-be-happy) --The optimistic people were living in a fantasyland where they assumed a lot more control than they had.
“when throwing darts in the study, participants who were considered defensive pessimists were 30% more accurate after having pictured negative outcomes.” (blog.todoist.com/2014/07/22/the-productivity-paradox-pessimism-vs-optimism/)
I could go on citing studies, but anyone interested can look them up! Pessimism rules.
What does God do? He rolls the dice!
We’ve had this discussion before, Tony. I agree with atheists about a lot of things: we both like hamburgers, we like new cars, we think murder is wrong, We go on vacation to the same spots, etc. etc. I think there are substantial numbers of people in every religion who believe what I do–God created the universe, but God does not constantly tinker with the universe by intervening at all time. This is not a diminution of the powers of God; in fact, just the opposite–it would be a much inferior God who could not foresee things and had to step in and break His own laws of physics to set things right, or to answer prayers that He foresaw before the creation of the universe. And, as always, I invite anyone who thinks this is somehow “un-Catholic” to show me the documents. My belief is just as Catholic as people who believe God is constantly tinkering.
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tonyrey
Guest
It is an insult to God to call His miracles “tinkering”. No doubt all the miracles recognised by Church in the canonisation process are frauds and the miracles at Lourdes are due to wishful thinking on the part of the specialists in the Medical Bureau, not to mention the cures in answer to prayer by Christians and the members of other religions throughout the world and throughout history. Of course every single one of them has a scientific explanation - yet to be discovered - and Jesus was misguided in telling His followers their prayers will be answered. Obviously the laws of nature are so perfect they take into account everyone’s needs and ensure that no one is ever maimed, blinded, paralysed or killed in an accident. Obviously there is no need at all for God ever to intervene to minimise suffering or prevent injustice. Obviously He would be inferior and inconsistent if He ever had the temerity to break His own laws. In His wisdom He knew nothing in the world would ever go wrong and it would be the best of all possible worlds if He remained passive and impassive “at all time”…
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Aloysium
Guest
You and I exist.
Neither one of us brings himself into existence.
God creates and maintains our individual existence in everyone of its moments.
We exist in relation to God, who is Father to us.
Everything that exists does so as an expression of His will.
We are gods in that we have the free will to make of ourselves what we choose.
Like rowers, we see only what has been, and we require a captain to guide us.
There are many captains, including greed, lust, sloth and pride.
Through Jesus Christ, we have the Way set to eternal joy.
God has revealed His will collectively through His church and individually through the graces of the Holy Spirit.
God is involved in everything that happens in every moment.
The laws of physics are a human creation describing what happens usually (0.95 of the time); I would guess that if you think otherwise, you haven’t worked much in labs.
Creation exists in accordance with God’s will.
Amazing things happen which most people discuss in private, in solemn moments that are very special and sacred. Like Jesus in his hometown, you are not going to experience them where there is no faith. I would unfortunately include these forums in that latter group.
:twocents:
Neither one of us brings himself into existence.
God creates and maintains our individual existence in everyone of its moments.
We exist in relation to God, who is Father to us.
Everything that exists does so as an expression of His will.
We are gods in that we have the free will to make of ourselves what we choose.
Like rowers, we see only what has been, and we require a captain to guide us.
There are many captains, including greed, lust, sloth and pride.
Through Jesus Christ, we have the Way set to eternal joy.
God has revealed His will collectively through His church and individually through the graces of the Holy Spirit.
God is involved in everything that happens in every moment.
The laws of physics are a human creation describing what happens usually (0.95 of the time); I would guess that if you think otherwise, you haven’t worked much in labs.
Creation exists in accordance with God’s will.
Amazing things happen which most people discuss in private, in solemn moments that are very special and sacred. Like Jesus in his hometown, you are not going to experience them where there is no faith. I would unfortunately include these forums in that latter group.
:twocents:
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oldcelt
Guest
Aside from the first statement…everything you wrote, and have written, are items of un-provable belief. I respect that…but they are not answers.
John
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tonyrey
Guest
God doesn’t roll the dice; He has designed the universe with its framework of order **within which **coincidences occur. Only a dreamer believes everything can go precisely to plan in an immensely complex **physical **system in which countless events occur at every moment of the day and night. Omnipotence doesn’t entail absurdity.
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tonyrey
Guest
Nor was Shakespeare a fool when he referred to “the Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune” and “the thousand Natural shocks that Flesh is heir to”. Nor is the Catechism heretical when it explains that “the evils in nature seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures”. What is heretical is to believe God** never **intervenes in human affairs and that prayer is useless because it never has any effect whatsoever on what occurs in this world. That certainly is akin to deism or atheism.
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Aloysium
Guest
What is truest is unprovable. You do feel, correct? I have to stretch my imagination to “know” what is undeniably real for the other.
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