Molinism, Predestination, Free Will, Grace?!

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oldcelt said:
Certainly not…I will claim a good notion of logic.

John
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Unfortunately, John, logic is applied to beliefs. There is nothing else for it to consider. The only facts accepted by almost everyone are the facts that the world exists and we exist. “almost” because there are a few solipsists floating around. So far I haven’t come across a nihilist, although some individuals are heading in that direction… 😉
 
thinkandmull said:
(1) For some Catholics Rosmini or Hegel are a better source of thought on ontology than Aquinas. To each his own.
  1. God doesn’t change in His essence. But people are free to believe that God is a highly emotional (but not irrational) being, caring like a Father, and feeling hurt when we are hurt. Peter Kreeft had an article once I read on suffering that such as much. Strange to hear that from a Thomist
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The Son of God certainly shares our suffering:
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
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Matthew 25:40-45
 
tonyrey said:
Unfortunately, John, logic is applied to beliefs. There is nothing else for it to consider. The only facts accepted by almost everyone are the facts that the world exists and we exist. “almost” because there are a few solipsists floating around. So far I haven’t come across a nihilist, although some individuals are heading in that direction… 😉
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You speak of facts. Tony. You do realize that no one in these discussions have any…including myself. Facts are very different from faith or truth.
Of course, I’m assuming that you know that.

John
 
oldcelt said:
You speak of facts. Tony. You do realize that no one in these discussions have any…including myself. Facts are very different from faith or truth.
Of course, I’m assuming that you know that.

John
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We don’t have facts, John! The truth consists of facts. They **exist **whether we like it or not. If you didn’t believe you or I exist you wouldn’t bother to communicate with me or anyone else. 🙂
 
tonyrey said:
We don’t have facts, John! They **exist **whether we like it or not. If you didn’t believe you or I exist you wouldn’t bother to communicate with me. 🙂
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We are not talking about you and me in this current condition…are we? The thread is about an afterlife that no one has any reputable facts to confirm. If you, or anyone else has them, I’d love to read them.

John
 
oldcelt said:
We don’t have facts, John! They **exist **
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You seemed to imply there are no facts whatsoever! If there are the only one of which we are absolutely certain is the fact that we exist. We infer the existence of everything else from our perceptions. Our primary datum is our intangible mind which transcends the laws of nature…
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tonyrey said:
You seemed to imply there are no facts whatsoever! If there are the only one of which we are absolutely certain is the fact that we exist. We infer the existence of everything else from our perceptions. Our primary datum is our intangible mind which transcends the laws of nature…
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There are definitely facts…the principle laws of the universe. Our contentions are two-fold…where did they commence…and are they orderly or chaotic? Then, can you, or anyone else, conclude something as spectacular as a Christian heaven from any of the known facts?

John
 
oldcelt said:
There are definitely facts…the principle laws of the universe. Our contentions are two-fold…where did they commence…and are they orderly or chaotic? Then, can you, or anyone else, conclude something as spectacular as a Christian heaven from any of the known facts?

John
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Facts and the laws of the universe exist in our minds. Nowhere else! They **describe **both spiritual reality and physical reality but spiritual reality comes first. Science wouldn’t exist without the power of the mind. As Pascal pointed out, the universe doesn’t know we exist but we know the universe exists because we exist at a higher level.

You believe in the Creator because the universe obviously cannot explain itself. We are minicreators in being able to control what happens in the universe - a remarkable feat we take for granted. It is overwhelming evidence that we are not just cogs in a machine but agents who can enhance or destroy what God has created. Our existence as persons is far more spectacular than anything else. Given the difference between good and evil there is no reason to suppose heaven - or hell - is less probable than the laws of nature. Both we and they are miracles!

Strangely enough, you reject the Christian God because you believe in love and evil.
That should give us hope that eventually we shall be reunited with our loved ones… Why not? Many non-Christians share that optimism. The cynics are an extremely small minority.
 
tonyrey said:
Facts and the laws of the universe exist in our minds. Nowhere else! They **describe **both spiritual reality and physical reality but spiritual reality comes first. Science wouldn’t exist without the power of the mind. As Pascal pointed out, the universe doesn’t know we exist but we know the universe exists because we exist at a higher level.

You believe in the Creator because the universe obviously cannot explain itself. We are minicreators in being able to control what happens in the universe - a remarkable feat we take for granted. It is overwhelming evidence that we are not just cogs in a machine but agents who can enhance or destroy what God has created. Our existence as persons is far more spectacular than anything else. Given the difference between good and evil there is no reason to suppose heaven - or hell - is less probable than the laws of nature. Both we and they are miracles!

Strangely enough, you reject the Christian God because you believe in love and evil.
That should give us hope that eventually we shall be reunited with our loved ones… Why not? Many non-Christians share that optimism. The cynics are an extremely small minority.
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Hope springs eternal…

John
 
oldcelt said:
I don’t think so…realist…you might have me there. 🙂
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Do you live as if this is the only life we have and regard life after death as out of the question? Doesn’t it all seem rather futile?
 
tonyrey said:
Do you live as if this is the only life we have and regard life after death as out of the question? Doesn’t it all seem rather futile?
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Completely out of the question…no. Likely out of the question…yes. Still, I do not see futility. This is our shot at existence…may as well enjoy it and do the best we can for those who follow.

John
 
oldcelt said:
Completely out of the question…no. Likely out of the question…yes. Still, I do not see futility. This is our shot at existence…may as well enjoy it and do the best we can for those who follow.
John
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How can we really** enjoy** our existence if we believe we shall never ever see our loved ones again?
 
tonyrey said:
How can we really** enjoy** our existence if we believe we shall never ever see our loved ones again?
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By making the most of every moment that we have with them. The current existence is reality as best we can know it…I’m content to work with that,

John
 
oldcelt said:
How can we really** enjoy**
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The problem is that we may live many years without our loved ones - which is hardly a recipe for enjoyment. In fact the more we enjoyed life with them the more we miss them.
Absence makes the heart grow fonder but if it is final it can make the heart bitter and grief-stricken. As Othello said in a different context, “O Iago, the pity of it, Iago!” Delight is replaced by despair…
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tonyrey said:
The problem is that we may live many years without our loved ones - which is hardly a recipe for enjoyment. In fact the more we enjoyed life with them the more we miss them.
Absence makes the heart grow fonder but if it is final it can make the heart bitter and grief-stricken. As Othello said in a different context, “O Iago, the pity of it, Iago!” Delight is replaced by despair…
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I’m sure that you’re right in many cases, but certainly not all. Many are much better able to deal with loss. There are many in my life who I would love to see again, but I do not despair because I think that the likelihood is slim.

John
 
oldcelt said:
I’m sure that you’re right in many cases, but certainly not all. Many are much better able to deal with loss. There are many in my life who I would love to see again, but I do not despair because I think that the likelihood is slim.

John
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I’m sure you would despair, John, if you were an inveterate “humanist”. What an unwittingly ironic description of a “naked ape”! It couldn’t be more cynical…
 
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