Molinism, Predestination, Free Will, Grace?!

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Let’s start with the last one first. I was explicitly referencing the movie “Signs” where Mel Gibson and Joachim Phoenix sit on the couch and explicitly discuss this very issue: Does God constantly intervene in the world or not? They come to the conclusion that there are only two possibilities: You believe God intervenes constantly or you’re an atheist. You are absolutely right–that’s a false dilemma or a false dichotomy. There is a third position, which is mine–belief in God, but not a God who is constantly intervening in the world.
Does God ever intervene?
“He [Jesus] certainly rejected the idea that God just lets things happen without ever doing anything to prevent or alleviate suffering.” Please quote a passage from the NT or Catechism to back that up.
How do you interpret this:
“Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them.”
Mark 11:24 ?
I will gladly accept “alleviate suffering” in the sense of “strengthen your resolve” or something like that, and of course I wouldn’t see this as an “intervention” at the exact time of trial–once again, I would see it as a built-in part of creation before time. Although since this is mental, I could accept an “at the time” intervention–mentally. If God wanted to “alleviate suffering” by breaking natural laws, He could go into a famine area and make food and water magically appear. That doesn’t happen. Do aid agencies bring food and water? Yes. Are they agents of God? Sure, in a sense. Again, indirect, not direct, action.
Can you prove it **never **rains in answer to prayer?
“There is nothing to distinguish this argument [denying that God intervenes to stop evil from natural causes, or modern day miracles] from that of an atheist.” You’re right. An atheist would make the same arguments. Hitler was against smoking. I’m against smoking. We agree on that issue. That doesn’t make me Hitler, and agreeing with atheists on some issues doesn’t make me an atheist.
It puts you in the same category as Calvin who believed miracles haven’t occurred since the time of Jesus.
As for modern miracles, I guess I’m very much like the Apostle Thomas. I need to be shown. Curing a headache or a backache isn’t a verifiable miracle. How about all those nice preachers on TV who perform “healings” on every show? Are they performing miracles? No?
What is the justification for ruling out all healing in any context?
  1. Do you reject the accounts of miracles worked by the Apostles and all the saints canonised by the Catholic Church?
  2. Why doesn’t God give modern saints the power to work miracles which alleviate suffering?
  3. If you had the power to alleviate suffering in the world would you?
 
Does God ever intervene?

How do you interpret this:
Mark 11:24 ?

Can you prove it **never **rains in answer to prayer?

It puts you in the same category as Calvin who believed miracles haven’t occurred since the time of Jesus.
What is the justification for ruling out all healing in any context?
  1. Do you reject the accounts of miracles worked by the Apostles and all the saints canonised by the Catholic Church?
  2. Why doesn’t God give modern saints the power to work miracles which alleviate suffering?
  3. If you had the power to alleviate suffering in the world would you?
“Does God ever intervene?” He could, but I don’t think He does. Any intervention is through influencing your mind, giving you ideas, etc. Again, I am not excluding “intervention” per se, it’s just that if we assume a God who knows the future, he would build any “intervention” into original creation.

Mark 11:24 “Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them.” Demonstrably untrue unless you give it some special sense. Last week I prayed I would win the lottery. I didn’t. Why not? I wasn’t worthy? I didn’t pray hard enough? I’m not saying I understand the passage, but there’s certainly no magical cause and effect: I pray, prayers come true. Nope.

“Can you prove it never rains in answer to prayer?” You can’t prove a negative. I just don’t see God intervening directly to alleviate suffering (sickness, natural disasters). He could. I just don’t think He does. Why not? I have no idea. Neither does anyone else.

If I’m in the same category as Calvin vis a vis miracles, so be it. Again, that doesn’t make me a Calvinist because we agree on one item.

Your other points:

“1. Do you reject the accounts of miracles worked by the Apostles and all the saints canonised by the Catholic Church?” They’re possible, but I personally am skeptical. I think a lot of “miracles” can be explained by perfectly natural causes. If I “cure” 100 cancer patients, probably 30 will go into remission all by themselves. Did I “cure” them? No.

“2. Why doesn’t God give modern saints the power to work miracles which alleviate suffering?” I have no idea. It would be a good idea.

“3. If you had the power to alleviate suffering in the world would you?” Yes. I would eliminate it. Remember we’re dividing suffering/evil into two groups: one group is caused by the will of man (wars, murder, etc.); the other group has nothing to do with men (sickness, natural disasters). I can see the first group as being the fruits of sin or whatever. The second group? I have no idea. A mystery.
 
I gave the example of a human creator who builds a machine that he absolutely knows will cause great harm. The act of building that machine with the absolute foreknowledge that it would cause harm would be enough to convict that man in any court in the world.
The same applies to a deity, in my belief.
God’s knowledge comes, ontologically, AFTER choices are made. Eternity is not lined up along with time the way you think it is,
 
. . . Mark 11:24 “Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them.” Demonstrably untrue unless you give it some special sense. Last week I prayed I would win the lottery. I didn’t. Why not? I wasn’t worthy? I didn’t pray hard enough? I’m not saying I understand the passage, but there’s certainly no magical cause and effect: I pray, prayers come true. Nope. . . .
Seriously?! You had the gall to pray to win the lottery??!! You spoke with God and the only thing that came to mind to ask for was winning the lottery? What!!?? . . . sorry, on second thought I don’t believe you.
 
How do you interpret this: Mark 11:24 ?
Please believe me when I say that I sincerely appreciate your challenging me, because it gives me a chance to look things up and learn a few more things. That’s why I’m here.

First, Mark 11:24. I have quite a few Bible commentaries. Surprisingly (to me) there was virtually nothing in any of them referring to this verse except a warning that your prayers should not be selfish. (note to Aloysium: Hey, maybe I prayed to win the lottery so I could give it all to the poor!)

Next I went to the Catechism and looked in the index for “miracles.” Nothing. “Signs and wonders”: a passing reference to Jesus performing miracles to prove He was sent by God. Nothing else.

I did a Google search on “Catholic” and “miracles” and came up with 9.5 million hits. Needless to say, I’m not wading through that. I looked at a few sites: nothing beyond lists of miracles and some definitions.

A search of “miracles” on this site brought up 89 pages…I scrolled through the first 10 pages. Nothing on the necessity of believing in miracles. Some stuff on their usefulness in apologetics.

I can see where belief in miracles would be a useful thing for some people. I’m just not one of them. In conclusion–I’m going on vacation, so you can talk among yourselves–it seems to me that the Catholic Church is a very big tent. We all share certain core beliefs. Beyond that, there are optional beliefs (Lourdes, Fatima–if you didn’t already guess, I’m not a fan). A lot of people believe them, but it’s not a requirement. I suspect that everyone has, in some ways, a unique understanding of religion. We should all be charitable and recognize that that’s OK.
 
I’m not certain…that quality may not be necessary.
Then you probably believe in an impersonal creative force that may not even know what it is doing - although “Creator” gives the opposite impression…
 
God’s knowledge comes, ontologically, AFTER choices are made. Eternity is not lined up along with time the way you think it is,
This sounds like Aquinas. For Aquinas, God could only do the possible. His foreknowledge ended at free will choices because it isn’t possible to predict what a man with free will would do.

I personally don’t buy this because as I’ve said a few times, people don’t have an infinity of choices for every decision. Their decisions are limited by the genes, their minds, and the external environment (reality). So there are really very few choices available at any given time, and I can see no reason why God wouldn’t have foreknowledge of those choices and their outcomes. But I’m not Aquinas.
 
Then you probably believe in an impersonal creative force that may not even know what it is doing - although “Creator” gives the opposite impression…
I observe some degree of organization…though certainly not complete. Organization, to me, implies a degree of what I would describe as intelligence. So, I would say that the creator is aware of creating, maybe even has a general plan…but not in a manner that I am yet able to comprehend.
 
God’s knowledge comes, ontologically, AFTER choices are made. Eternity is not lined up along with time the way you think it is,
If, as is so often claimed on this forum, God is free of the bounds of time then Foreknowledge and creation all occur as one event to that deity. There is no need for a lineup…the Christian God knew from the moment of creation the outcome for all of creation, including us. There can be no free will under such a scenario…the creator knew at the instant of creation…still created. It was a foregone conclusion from the beginning.
 
Please believe me when I say that I sincerely appreciate your challenging me, because it gives me a chance to look things up and learn a few more things. That’s why I’m here.

First, Mark 11:24. I have quite a few Bible commentaries. Surprisingly (to me) there was virtually nothing in any of them referring to this verse except a warning that your prayers should not be selfish. (note to Aloysium: Hey, maybe I prayed to win the lottery so I could give it all to the poor!)
I pray to St Anthony whenever I lose something and I’ve had some incredible results. Once I hunted high and low for my keys until I gave up in despair. I said “Come on, old chap! I can’t find them without your help.” Within a few seconds I happened to glance out of the window and there they were, hanging from the lock of an old caravan. Coincidence? Yes, if it had been only once but these coincidences have happened so consistently over a long period of time it seems very unlikely. The only natural explanation I can think of is that praying stimulates my memory - which is so bad even that would be a miracle! Even my family have helped me search for something I’ve lost and failed… until my patron has stepped in… 🙂
Next I went to the Catechism and looked in the index for “miracles.” Nothing. “Signs and wonders”: a passing reference to Jesus performing miracles to prove He was sent by God. Nothing else.
I did a Google search on “Catholic” and “miracles” and came up with 9.5 million hits. Needless to say, I’m not wading through that. I looked at a few sites: nothing beyond lists of miracles and some definitions.
A search of “miracles” on this site brought up 89 pages…I scrolled through the first 10 pages. Nothing on the necessity of believing in miracles. Some stuff on their usefulness in apologetics.
I can see where belief in miracles would be a useful thing for some people. I’m just not one of them. In conclusion–I’m going on vacation, so you can talk among yourselves–it seems to me that the Catholic Church is a very big tent. We all share certain core beliefs. Beyond that, there are optional beliefs (Lourdes, Fatima–if you didn’t already guess, I’m not a fan). A lot of people believe them, but it’s not a requirement. I suspect that everyone has, in some ways, a unique understanding of religion. We should all be charitable and recognize that that’s OK.
Exactly. The Church teaches that our ultimate authority is our (informed) conscience - which implies we exist in order to choose what to believe and how to live. Although I’ve probably been discussing this particular subject longer than anyone else on this forum I’m still learning. That’s why it’s so fascinating, fulfilling and inspiring.

I hope you have an enjoyable vacation - with a minor miracle to make you wonder whether natural causes tell the whole story… 🙂
 
If, as is so often claimed on this forum, God is free of the bounds of time then Foreknowledge and creation all occur as one event to that deity. There is no need for a lineup…the Christian God knew from the moment of creation the outcome for all of creation, including us. There can be no free will under such a scenario…the creator knew at the instant of creation…still created. It was a foregone conclusion from the beginning.
John, a conclusion isn’t necessarily produced by one cause. Modern medicine recognises the frequently multifactorial origin of disease. The outcome of creation is far more likely to have many different factors within the all-embracing purpose of God.
 
I observe some degree of organization…though certainly not complete. Organization, to me, implies a degree of what I would describe as intelligence. So, I would say that the creator is aware of creating, maybe even has a general plan…but not in a manner that I am yet able to comprehend.
None of us can fully comprehend the Creator but there is no reason to believe we have greater insight and power. The fact that we have polluted this planet suggests it has a more fertile and positive purpose. Harmful side effects imply there is a superior Design just as evil implies the existence of goodness…
 
It may just be a question of semantics, but probably not. I have no problem with saying that God is the ultimate cause, first cause, whatever word you want. I have no problem with saying that God–ultimately–causes the present existence of the universe and in that sense there is a “continuing influence” which is “part of the creative act”; but then it gets tricky when you try to define that. If you mean that God is “active” in the sense that He actively wills the universe to continue to do whatever it’s doing, great. If you mean God is “active” in the sense that He’s constantly interrupting the action of natural laws (which He created) to do whatever you want to call it (“fix” things, “adjust” things, “answer prayers,” whatever) then that seems to me to be illogical and denigrates God, as I keep saying, by restricting Him to immediate or direct actions. If you assume God’s perfect foreknowledge of creation, there would obviously be no need to intervene–the “intervention” is, in fact, part of the creative act. . Does it take place after

creation? That–since God is outside time and space–doesn’t make sense.

The catechism says “The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator. God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes” (#308). Terms such as first cause and secondary causes are from philosophy and more specifically, first philosophy or metaphysics. The Church’s par excellent teacher here is St Thomas Aquinas whose philosophical doctrine the Church has officially endorsed on not a few occasions (he is mentioned by name in official Vatican II documents) to be the philosophy above all other philosophies to be taught to seminarians and in catholic universities. We will not stray from the truth of the catholic faith if we follow his philosophical doctrine and principles.

Accordingly, concerning the above text from the catechism, St Thomas says the actions done by creatures are done both by God immediately and the creature immediately. Not partly done by God and partly done by the creature, but wholly done by God and wholly done by the creature. For example, suppose we take an ax in our hands and cut wood or logs with it. The logs are cut both by us and the ax, we being the principle agent while the ax is an instrumental agent of cutting the logs. Similarly, God is the principle agent in all the actions of His creatures as He is the first cause of these actions, while creatures are secondary agents and instrumental and second causes of these actions. Human beings who have free will are a different kind of “instrument” than an ax of course.

This teaching steers a middle course between occasionalism (I have not strayed into this) and mere conservationism which would be the equivalent of the Newtonian concept you mentioned in a previous post. Secondary causes are true causes of creaturely actions which is opposed to occasionalism which denies that creatures are true causes at all. For example, fire does not cause heat but God in the fire causes heat.
Mere conservationism is not a Newtonian invention. This idea was floating around among the scholastic medieval schools in Aquinas’ time but rejected by Aquinas, St.Bonaventura, St Albert the Great, Blessed Duns Scotus to name a few. It is certainly not the official teaching of the Catholic Church as we find it in the Catechism of the Catholic Church or in the Catechism of the Council of Trent. Nor can it be reconciled with Divine Revelation and Holy Scripture and still less if we take into consideration the doctrine of grace. Consequently, the CCC#304 says:
“And so we see the Holy Spirit, the principal author of Sacred Scripture, often attributing actions to God without mentioning any secondary causes. This is not a “primitive mode of speech”, but a profound way of recalling God’s primacy and absolute Lordship over history and the world, and so of educating his people to trust in him. the prayer of the Psalms is the great school of this trust.”
 
The catechism says “The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator. God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes” (#308). … We will not stray from the truth of the catholic faith if we follow his philosophical doctrine and principles.
Everything Aquinas wrote is not infallible doctrine. However, I can certainly see my views reflected in what you wrote above–because, in a sense, God does actively keep the universe working through His will. The problem is that “in a sense” can be explained a lot of different ways. You’re taking it one way, I’m taking it another.
…Secondary causes are true causes of creaturely actions which is opposed to occasionalism which denies that creatures are true causes at all.
Again, you seem to be supporting what I’ve said: “Secondary causes are true causes…” Sure. Now I’m not quite sure what you mean by “mere conservationism”, but as far as I know, nothing I’ve said is against the Catechism or revelation, etc. etc. Your #304 is fine–notice it does not say what “actions” are attributed to God “immediately.” I have no problem accepting and believing that–creation is an example. As for grace, the last time I looked grace affected your spiritual or mental state. It didn’t cure diabetes.

Now I’m off on vacation, so I hope I can trust you alone on the web…be nice! And I’ll be on the lookout for miracles.
 
The catechism says “The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator. God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes” (#308). Terms such as first cause and secondary causes are from philosophy and more specifically, first philosophy or metaphysics. The Church’s par excellent teacher here is St Thomas Aquinas whose philosophical doctrine the Church has officially endorsed on not a few occasions (he is mentioned by name in official Vatican II documents) to be the philosophy above all other philosophies to be taught to seminarians and in catholic universities. We will not stray from the truth of the catholic faith if we follow his philosophical doctrine and principles.
 
Cardinal Ratzinger has a different opinion. He said that God could have eros for us. A prayer card I found last night has a prayer written by him in which he assures us that we are “necessary”. Not Thomistic, but not heterodox.
 
Cardinal Ratzinger has a different opinion. He said that God could have eros for us. A prayer card I found last night has a prayer written by him in which he assures us that we are “necessary”. Not Thomistic, but not heterodox.
We cannot be literally necessary because it would imply God is compelled to create us. Even so it seems unthinkable that infinite Love wouldn’t create anyone. Perhaps the solution is that God is not compelled to create the human race or any other beings in particular but does so with absolute freedom because inability to create is incompatible with omnipotence! Whatever the reason it is presumptuous to try to attempt a full explanation. All we know for certain is what Jesus has told us, together with the words of the saints and prophets which are consistent with His teaching.
 
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