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Aloysium
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I suppose, given 13 billion years:
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came together, transforming itself spontaneously to become:
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mamlukman
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Sure. Why not? It doesn’t mean God wasn’t involved. It just means he wasn’t constantly interfering, which makes sense to me.
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Richca
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A difficulty I see in your analysis here is this. It is self-evident that human artifacts are made by humans who have intelligence. For example, if we found a watch in the park, we would logically conclude that this watch is the product of some intelligent human who made it. Now, lets consider natural things such as the human brain or the human body which is evidently on a superior order of complexity and unity, an order of complexity and unity that is truly mind boggling. If we know that a thing as simple as a watch was put together and fashioned by some intelligent human, is it not reasonable to postulate that something as complex as the human brain or the human body, indeed, the entire order of nature and the universe was fashioned and made, and is being fashioned and made, by some intelligent being? We know for certain that the products and artifacts made by human beings, who on planet earth are the most intelligent kind of animal, are made by human beings. They do not make or come together by themselves. The daily revolution of the earth on its axis and its yearly orbit around the sun is not being done only by the earth itself or whatever other secondary causes but it is caused by God, the First Cause, the designer and maker of the universe, and not only sometime in the distant past but right now, presently!
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Richca
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Whatever effects are taking place in the universe presently have a cause which are all reduced in the here and now to the First Cause, God. The governance of the universe is what we call God’s providence.
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tonyrey
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A delightful analogy! Obviously miracles never cease…
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mamlukman
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Of course. Maybe. Depends on what you mean by “governance of the universe.” Yes, ultimately, the universe depends on God. But if by “governance of the universe” you mean a God that is constantly fiddling with the controls and tweaking this over here and that over there, then I think we part company. For example, I think Bart Ehrman goes off the tracks because his only conception of God is an “active God” who needs to constantly tinker with the universe. That doesn’t make sense to me. Why can’t we go back to a Newtonian concept of a God who simply creates the universe, gives it some physical laws, and sits back and watches it develop–as He planned? It seems to me that if God’s constantly tinkering that leads to a number of implications–God didn’t know how to do it right in the beginning; God’s not satisfied with how it’s going, etc. All of those implications diminish God. And this is the paradox I’ve pointed out earlier–the very people who want to bring God into the universe to tinker with it are in fact limiting the power of God. A Contradiction.
And the previous few posts about complexity–please, not the early 19th c. analogy of the watchmaker! Anything but that. Given chance, natural laws, and 14 billion years, almost anything can evolve. As I’ve said before, some people need to read some books on probability–just because there’s a small chance doesn’t mean it won’t happen. Improbable things happen all the time, and most people are aware of all sorts of low probability events in their own lives. An example: We lived in Saudi Arabia next door to a guy who my wife had known in jr. high and hadn’t seen since. What are the odds? How many times have you been traveling abroad and bumped into someone you knew from 20 years before? Actually, the probability of these events is much higher than most people think. That’s why they happen with regularity.
But back to complexity. I think a lot of people have problems with God and complexity. Even if there are huge numbers of atoms in the universe moving at random, it doesn’t mean God can’t know and understand their movement. Some people are quoting axioms like “The effect cannot be greater than the cause.” I suppose Aristotle or someone thought that up, but rather than believe in those sorts of axioms I would rather believe in science. Randomness, chance…it’s all part of the universe. Why not?
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tonyrey
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The fact that the laws of nature cannot cater for every contingency implies that divine intervention must be far more frequent than we can imagine - if God is a loving Father…
The element of chance obviously plays a large part within the framework of Design but it must be offset by divine intervention far more often than we realise. I’m quite sure God has averted many natural disasters and even prevented the extinction of the human race on more than one occasion. Otherwise Providence ceases to be a meaningful concept::
Matthew 5:45
Calvin went to the other extreme: “It is certain that not a drop of rain falls without the express command of God”.
The truth is generally found between generalisations.
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mamlukman
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I’m sorry, but we disagree on this one. I think it’s futile to try and convince each other, but I will try to explain my point of view a little more.
Your first sentence “laws of nature cannot…” implies that there is some master plan, and that nature somehow is interfering with it, and God has to swoop down like Superman (yes, I’m exaggerating!) to save the day. I’m suggesting that is exactly what I said earlier–it limits God. It suggests that God was not smart enough to design a universe where He didn’t have to swoop down. Or it suggests a universe that needs to be constantly upgraded, like software (universe 2.0). Or it suggests that there is some outside force that interferes to screw things up, and God needs to fix it. Whatever the suggestion is, it limits God. Another limitation is simply the idea that God must be an “active” God and work only through direct intervention. I see no reason at all that God can work however He likes–which includes indirectly (through evolution or chance, for example).
The second paragraph has problems for me as well. I think you have to bear in mind that the laws of chance are also created by God. Again, why does God have to swoop down periodically to set things straight? That implies several possibilities, none of which are acceptable to me: God didn’t get it right the first time. Chance is some sort of demonic force, or at least outside God’s creation. Etc. Again–limiting God.
As for Providence, I think it depends on how you look at it. If you look at it within time (as we must), it looks as if God is swooping down here and there. From God’s point of view outside time, His Providence was part of the original creation, not a periodic visitation. (By the way, I’m not suggesting God couldn’t swoop down if He wanted to–I just don’t see why He needs to or wants to.)
You see stories on TV every day: A tornado hits, and Billy Bob says, “It was only by the grace of God that my house was spared. Anther 50 feet and I would be dead.” But the tornado–by going 50 feet left of Billy Bob–destroyed the house of the neighbor and killed her. Jesus even made fun of this idea in Luke 13:4-5 “Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them–do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you no.”
My own opinion is that it boils down to your emphasis on the transcendence or immanence of God. God is both, of course, but everyone stresses one or the other.
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tonyrey
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mamlukman
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I’ll simply say that I still think that by insisting on an active God that intervenes constantly you are limiting God. God does not have to intervene constantly to be loving, merciful, etc. and God can work indirectly through chance and natural laws that He Himself created.
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Aloysium
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From my way of seeing things, God is involved in everything as its Creator.
He is the Ground of Being that underlies all that is.
Natural laws are human inventions that describe what happens most of the time.
That said I also believe universe is rational and that it unfolds as it should.
I see everything as “alive”.
To my way of thinking, the concept of angels describes what the current material world view understands as processes, as they are actually, in themselves.
We have free will and our goal is to become loving beings, a goal that will see us in paradise, our home.
He makes it possible to get there. Of course, He intervenes constantly.
That’s the short of it, imho.
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Richca
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Richca
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Axioms such as “the effect cannot be greater than its cause” are from a science too, a science that is actually higher than the one your thinking about. Aristotle called metaphysics, the science of being as being. Metaphysics is the highest science attainable by the natural light of reason. It deals with the ultimate causes and principles of reality and more specifically, the ultimate cause and principle of all which is God. Consequently, as God is the ultimate cause and principle of all, the principles of metaphysics apply to all the natural sciences.
As I indicated above concerning the Providence of God, a science of pure randomness and chance is not sustainable in light of divine revelation, the catholic faith, or catholic philosophy. For Wisdom “spans the world from end to end mightily, and ordering all things well.” All secondary causes fall under the order of the first universal cause, God, and nothing escapes this order even those things that appear to us to happen by chance, as for example, a person digging in a field finds some buried treasure unintentionally. The Divine Will which is the cause of things, however, does not impose necessity on all things especially if we consider the case of the free will of human beings.
That the universe is the product of pure randomness and chance also implies that there is no purpose to it or reason why anything that exists in the universe exists at all. There is no reason why the sun rises every day in the east and sets in the west. There is no reason why we have rain although it is obvious that without rain or the sun we would have no plants on the earth or water for animals including us to drink. There is no reason why there are human beings on earth. This is all evidently fictitious and an idea we cannot hold nor does it befit the creator.
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tonyrey
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The reverse is true! If God is unable or unwilling to suspend the laws of nature whenever He chooses He is not omnipotent nor fully expressing His infinite love. He does work indirectly through chance and natural laws but life is so immensely complex with billions of creatures pursuing so many different goals it is impossible to prevent so much evil without direct intervention. That is precisely why there is so much unnecessary suffering in the world. The only reason He doesn’t prevent **all **evil is that it would defeat the purpose of making us free to choose what to believe and how to live. Otherwise miracles would occur everywhere at every moment of the day! In fact they do occur very frequently but they are impossible to detect because they are not always observable or recognisable as miracles. Infinite love always finds ways of helping us far beyond what we can imagine - such as the life, death and resurrection of Jesus… and His presence in the Holy Eucharist…
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Aloysium
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Following up from what i wrote above . . .
So why is there suffering if God is involved in everything?
That’s a question i would have asked years ago. At that time it led me also to the conclusion that He isn’t
However, that was before bad things really started happening; when the suffering was out there - more read about and feared than experienced
What one does discover in suffering are the beatitudes.
He is truly with us always, guiding healing, consoling and bringing us to new life
The wealth, honour, power, the things of this world, they can all be done without - our true Goal is far loftier.
So why is there suffering if God is involved in everything?
That’s a question i would have asked years ago. At that time it led me also to the conclusion that He isn’t
However, that was before bad things really started happening; when the suffering was out there - more read about and feared than experienced
What one does discover in suffering are the beatitudes.
He is truly with us always, guiding healing, consoling and bringing us to new life
The wealth, honour, power, the things of this world, they can all be done without - our true Goal is far loftier.
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tonyrey
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tonyrey
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Not for nothing is Jesus called Emmanuel…
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mamlukman
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Why should that be so? It has no necessary basis. See next post…
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mamlukman
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