Mom had tubes tied

[beckers]

Exactly. I have noticed with some surprise comments in this thread that their Mother “denied them a sibling” Kind of makes it seem that a lot of this is about “me” rather than “her”

I know i wonder if people who are only children get upset at God for deny them a sibling?

I can’t believe that people think it’s okay for the OP to have told his housemates about his mother’s tubal. There is no reason to ever tell anyone the specific about why you need prayers. God knows all of our needs. God would know which specific petition you are asking for even if you just use someone’s general name.

Some people have no problems with people knowing their business but some people are very private people. I am a very open person in some areas and closed in other areas. Think how you would feel if suddenly someone came out of the blue at church and said “Hey Mary- Charlie told me you are going through a divorce because your Husband had an affair so I’ve been praying for you for these specific reasons”. Could you imagine someone who is a very private person hearing this? They have enough issues dealing with being open to people and when they took a chance to open up it gets spread around. When it comes to prayer intention More information is not always better. Remember you can not un-do knowledge of information once it is spoken!

Granted asking for prayers is a good intention and i don’t think the OP was intentional going out of his way to spread private information but one should respect people’s private revelations, had your mother wanted it to be general news then she should be the one to tell people.

 

[estesbob]

I know i wonder if people who are only children get upset at God for deny them a sibling?

.

When my kids were young I beleive both of them wished God had denied them a sibling!

 

[Black_Jaque]

1. It’s not a sin to desire a sibling.
2. It IS a sin to get your tubes tied.
3. I can’t believe I’m seeing this on a Catholic forum - contraception being excused.
4. Cam probably should not have told his housemates all the gory details, but if we expect Cam to be so understanding of his mother ought we not have the same mercy on Cam.
5. "Your pain is nothing compared to hers. " Utter and complete nonsense! I can’t believe someone posted a statement like this. Nothing is more foolish than to tell someone that the pain they are experiencing is petty in comparison.

Contraception is the ultimate insult a parent can lay on a child. The act of contracepting makes a statement. It says, “Based on my experience with the children I already have, I don’t want any more.” That is why contraception is evil. And I am convinced this plays a huge role in the strange flipped-out events like Columbine. Kids are being told that they aren’t worth the hassle; they’re not worth the risk! No wonder they are full of angst!

Yes Cam’s mother suffered greatly with the loss of a child. Yes she had a lot to fear. But she knew what it was like to have a child - Cam. And for some reason the joy she experienced with Cam did not outweigh the risk of another loss.

Near as I can tell the only thing Cam did wrong was to tell his roomies Too Much Information. If Cam had really laid into his mother for doing such a thing I would not reprimand him one bit.

 

[estesbob]

1

) It’s not a sin to desire a sibling.

Nobody said it was

1. It IS a sin to get your tubes tied.

Nobody said it wasnt

1. I can’t believe I’m seeing this on a Catholic forum - contraception being excused.

Who did this?

1. Cam probably should not have told his housemates all the gory details, but if we expect Cam to be so understanding of his mother ought we not have the same mercy on Cam.

He asked for our opinion and we gave it. he got upset becuase he didnt like some of the answers he got

1. "Your pain is nothing compared to hers. " Utter and complete nonsense! I can’t believe someone posted a statement like this. Nothing is more foolish than to tell someone that the pain they are experiencing is petty in comparison.

You likewise have no basis to judge who is suffering more pain .

Contraception is the ultimate insult a parent can lay on a child. The act of contracepting makes a statement. It says, “Based on my experience with the children I already have, I don’t want any more.” That is why contraception is evil. And I am convinced this plays a huge role in the strange flipped-out events like Columbine. Kids are being told that they aren’t worth the hassle; they’re not worth the risk! No wonder they are full of angst!

Most in this thread agree contraception is evil-you are preaching to the choir.

Yes Cam’s mother suffered greatly with the loss of a child. Yes she had a lot to fear. But she knew what it was like to have a child - Cam. And for some reason the joy she experienced with Cam did not outweigh the risk of another loss.

Her business-she didnt come here asking for our opinion of what she did-her son did.

Near as I can tell the only thing Cam did wrong was to tell his roomies Too Much Information. If Cam had really laid into his mother for doing such a thing I would not reprimand him one bit.

She didnt ask his opinion of what she did.

 

[zzz]

Exactly. I have noticed with some suprise comments in this thread that their Mother “denied them a sibling” Kind of makes it seem that a lot of this is about “me” rather than “her”

You hit the nail on the head! I agree completely.

 

[jrabs]

You hit the nail on the head! I agree completely.

I agree as well.

The OP seems to be asking for validation. Unfortunately, sometimes this is not what the OP gets.

To the OP…your mom made a choice many years ago and it is possible she has made peace with God and herself since then.

This is not about you, it is about her and her life. Do not judge her. She also does not owe you an apology or an explanation. Please just let her be on this and grieve silently and gracefully.

 

[Black_Jaque]

1) It’s not a sin to desire a sibling.

Nobody said it was

…but you said…

Kind of makes it seem that a lot of this is about “me” rather than “her”

2) It IS a sin to get your tubes tied.

Nobody said it wasnt

Do some research on other threads and you will find that this area is not as black and white as you are making it seem.

Situational ethics have been implied, not just in this quote but other posts as well. Those defending Cam’s mother are implying that since she went through an awful experience, her actions are excuseable.

You likewise have no basis to judge who is suffering more pain .

Right. And that’s not what I’m doing. It is possible to acknowlege Cam’s pain without comparing it to his mother’s pain. Becker’s flat out told him that his pain is petty comparatively. A parent’s loss of a child is immense pain. But that’s the beauty of being open to life. You are saying that the joy of having more children is greater than the pain of losing one. Which is more painful? I have no idea, and I don’t think it matters.

Most in this thread agree contraception is evil

…except when faced with risk of losing more children or your own life? Then contraception is understandable?

Her business-she didnt come here asking for our opinion of what she did-her son did.

No. Her son did not come here asking for our opinion on what his mother did. Her son came here wondering if his feelings were normal. Some told him that his feelings are not important compared to his mothers.

She didnt ask his opinion of what she did.

Nor did he ask our opinion of what he did (telling his roomies); yet some folks thought it appropriate to reprimand him. He made it our business by telling us what he did. She made it his business by telling him what she did. (That is not to say that she then made it his roommates business, he crossed the line there).

If you do illegal drugs in the privacy of your own home that’s your business. If you tell a cop about it, you just made it his business. Don’t be surprised when he puts the cuffs on you.

 

[estesbob]

…but you said…

Situational ethics have been implied, not just in this quote but other posts as well. Those defending Cam’s mother are implying that since she went through an awful experience, her actions are excuseable.

Right. And that’s not what I’m doing. It is possible to acknowlege Cam’s pain without comparing it to his mother’s pain. Becker’s flat out told him that his pain is petty comparatively. A parent’s loss of a child is immense pain. But that’s the beauty of being open to life. You are saying that the joy of having more children is greater than the pain of losing one. Which is more painful? I have no idea, and I don’t think it matters.

…except when faced with risk of losing more children or your own life? Then contraception is understandable?

No. Her son did not come here asking for our opinion on what his mother did. Her son came here wondering if his feelings were normal. Some told him that his feelings are not important compared to his mothers.

Nor did he ask our opinion of what he did (telling his roomies); yet some folks thought it appropriate to reprimand him. He made it our business by telling us what he did. She made it his business by telling him what she did. (That is not to say that she then made it his roommates business, he crossed the line there).

If you do illegal drugs in the privacy of your own home that’s your business. If you tell a cop about it, you just made it his business. Don’t be surprised when he puts the cuffs on you.

Tilting at a lot of strawmen here. Most in this thread agree that contraception is wrong in all cases-I do, beckers does-it appears that the vast mnajority of posters do. You want to take a couple of posts by others and use it to lecture the rest of us-of course nicely changing the subject.

When someone tells me their Mother “denied them a sibling” it is an indication that they are focused on themselves rather than the tough decision their mother made-albeit a bad decision. Would it be wrong for a couple using NFP to “deny” their child a sibling? Do we “owe” our children siblings? if so how many?

BTW stateing it is a tough decision is a statementt of fact-not a statement of support for the decision. When i counsel Pregnant women about their options I most certainly dont assume that the decion is easy becuase Church teaching is so clear.

It is interestng that you would compare a private conversation with ones child to confessing a crime to a policemen. Do you have any children?

 

[jrabs]

That is not to say that she then made it his roommates business, he crossed the line there

).

Hello…he posted a thread. It’s implied when someone opens up a thread I think - unless stated otherwise.

 

[Black_Jaque]

Hello…he posted a thread. It’s implied when someone opens up a thread I think - unless stated otherwise.

Right. I agree. And that is why his mom made it his business when she volunteered the fact that she had her tubes tied.

Do we “owe” our children siblings? if so how many?

Yes, in some respects we do owe our children siblings. There is no number that can be applied to the second question, rather we owe them as many as is prudent. It’s prudential judgement.

Would it be wrong for a couple using NFP to “deny” their child a sibling?

It could be, and it might not be. There are numerous factors that go into the decision to avoid or attempt conception. Providing siblings for existing children is certainly worthy enough for husband and wife to discuss.

When someone tells me their Mother “denied them a sibling” it is an indication that they are focused on themselves rather than the tough decision their mother made-albeit a bad decision.

When someone shouts, “Ouch! That hurts!” that is an indication that they are focused on themselves rather than the foolish decision someone made. So what of it? God gave us pain receptors for a reason.

Yes Cam’s mother is his mother. Yes she may have felt the decision was a difficult one. And Yes she may have been poorly counceled. That means Cam still needs to treat his mother with all due respect. That doesn’t mean Cam should preserve his mother’s ignorance of the evil she has done.

It is interestng that you would compare a private conversation with ones child to confessing a crime to a policemen. Do you have any children?

The point is she volunteered the information to him. It’s foolish of her to think her son will take such news stoicly. The conversation is between her and her son. But she’s diluded to think that he can bear such a slap without some emotional response.

Whether I have children or not is not your business.

 

[gmarie21]

Cam, What were you expecting from your mom when you brought up the issue again after telling her the truth of the sin of contraception the first time which lead her to telling you the truth about what she did years ago? What will give you peace about this issue? Are you hoping for her appology?

 

[estesbob]

Whether I have children or not is not your business.

If you had children i seriously doubt you would think it was OK for your kids to discuss in public everything you you told them in private

 

[Smber2c]

** Black Jaque** thank you for pointing out how some people are talking out both sides of their mouth.

Telling people to only give advice if it is explictly asked for while advising on a question that was not explictly asked seems obvious hypocracy.

People have treated the OP as if he is wrong for feeling injured by his mom denying more children. This perhaps is what he came to ask, but I completely disagree that he’s wrong in that feeling. If it hurts, it hurts. Doesn’t mean should crucify his mother, but he can feel injured.

I had a recent discussion on whether children have a fundamental right to having 2 parents in their lives. I think yes, it is a right that only the most extreme circumstances should deprive children of both parents. I’m less sure on this one, but it seems possible that children may also be due siblings to the degree their parents relationship makes appropriate.

I’m one of 5 so I don’t really know the lack of siblings, but I do know the joy of having several.

 

[beckers]

Blaque Jaque

I am completely against conception so don’t make assumptions about me. When I said “**Did she know all of the ramifications of her decision when it happened? Sounds like she didn’t. Do some research on other threads and you will find that this area is not as black and white as you are making it seem.” **The churchs position on these procedures is not as black and white as you do one then your sinning. Example: if a women has cancer of the ovaries and has to have them removed versus a women having a tubal to keep her from getting pregnant. They both of the same effect that neither women is going to be able to have children but the intention was different. I was trying to point out that he should read some of the other threads on these boards. Tons of people have told their stories about tubal or vasectomy or hysterectomies. Maybe he could gain some understand and some closure. He after all mentioned that he wonders “did she mean to have me or not?”.

” Cam’s pain without comparing it to his mother’s pain. Becker’s flat out told him that his pain is petty comparatively. A parent’s loss of a child is immense pain. But that’s the beauty of being open to life.“You are saying that the joy of having more children is greater than the pain of losing one. Which is more painful? I have no idea, and I don’t think it matters.”-****

There are different levels of grieving and pain per situation. I may grieve for a friend who has lost a child but my grieving is not comparable to the actual reality of losing a child. The same goes for excitement and joy. I may be really excited for my friend to get married but it is not going to be on the same level that she feels. Does that makes sense? In this situation the OP is grieving over what may or may not have been (No guarantees that even without the produce she would have produced a sibling for the OP since that is god’s plan and not ours). He has a right to grieve but no it’s not of the same level as his mothers. She could be grieving over the**** reality**** that she couldn’t have any more children. Every time she saw the OP playing or sleeping or just being a person she may have wondered or felt the pain or desires to have more children but because of her decision she couldn’t.

We are not arguing in theory about being open to life or the reasons why not to do it. We are discussion something that has already happened. He can’t go back and change what his mother did. He needs to accept it and be there for his mother. Because she may or may not have closure herself but a new door in their relationship has opened. God may being trying to use Cam as a vassal to help his mother come to terms with everything but I bet his mother would be more willing to talk about it and how it has effected her life, if she feels that her son wants to know and is not judging her. Treat her with the most respect you can Cam!

And yes I still think it was wrong for her son to tell his friends. She told him not his friends therefore she wasn’t making it public knowledge but was telling him as a confidant. I am not sure how much detail he went into with his housemates but he could have left it at pray for me or pray for my mom….etc without getting into too much detail.

 

[apricot_yogurt]

This shows that a sin can have repercussions beyond what we expect.
I had my 1st dd outside of marriage. I have been forgiven and healed, but I cannot expect my dd not to question it, not to wish she had been born into a marriage, not to always explain that her birth date is 18 months earlier than her parents wedding date, not to even feel jelousy perhaps to her friends who were born into marriage. I am not saying she will, but I need to realise that committing a mortal sin is not without earthly consequences.
The OP has every right to feel sad at this news, to question and to be mad maybe -these are the first steps to healing-just like my dd has every right to be mad at me-she is precious and deserved to be born into a secure home.

 

[estesbob]

** Black Jaque** thank you for pointing out how some people are talking out both sides of their mouth

Telling people to only give advice if it is explictly asked for while advising on a question that was not explictly asked seems obvious hypocracy.

The OP said:

Am I wrong to feel this way about a decision that didn’t involve me, but nonetheless hurts anyway? God Bless.

Looks like a question to me. So much for "hypocracy’ unless your definition of hypocracy is “anyone who disagrees with me”

People have treated the OP as if he is wrong for feeling injured by his mom denying more children. This perhaps is what he came to ask, but I completely disagree that he’s wrong in that feeling. If it hurts, it hurts. Doesn’t mean should crucify his mother, but he can feel injured.

What most of us have told him was it was wrong to keep btinging it up with his Mom and very, very wrong to tell his frineds what she did "

I had a recent discussion on whether children have a fundamental right to having 2 parents in their lives. I think yes, it is a right that only the most extreme circumstances should deprive children of both parents. I’m less sure on this one, but it seems possible that children may also be due siblings to the degree their parents relationship makes appropriate.

So a person is perfectly justified to be angry at their parents for not providing them with the number of siblings “they” wanted. Are you a parent? Have you checked with your kids to see how many siblings they need to have so they wont be mad at you in the future?

I

of 5 so I don’t really know the lack of siblings, but I do know the joy of having several.

So am i -which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

 

[ElizabethAnne]

Cam,

God bless you and may He bring healing to you and your family.

My parents too have made mistakes that I find very hurtful. I am still in the middle of dealing with it all, so I am still very angry at times. I haven’t shared my feelings with my mother yet because I know that I am unable to do it from a place of love, not anger, yet.

My mom had a tubal after my brother was born because my parents “couldn’t afford anymore children.” That excuse makes me feel like an expensive burden, like my parents are saying that my brother and I cost so much that we were the only ones my parents could afford. And I always wondered what it would be like to have a sister.

I just recently learned that my mom was taking the pill when my parents were first married. Why she feels the need to share these types of things with me, I do not know, but knowing this kind of thing brings up all kinds of emotions and questions.

I guess I just wanted to say “I hear you.” This kind of thing is difficult and hurtful. I think it’s good to have an open discussion about the subject with your mom (she is the one who brought it up in the first place, after all), and it’s okay to ask for prayers from good friends you can trust.

 

[gmarie21]

Hello,

Right now, I am going through a difficult time. I just found out a few weeks ago that my mom had her tubes tied after I was born. Her second child died of a rare condition days after the birth and the doctor told her that her risk of losing another child or doing harm to her own health were increased if she had any more children. She inadvertently mentioned this when I was talking about the evil of contraception. I brought it up a few days later to get some personal closure as to why she would mutilate herself. She got annoyed and said that it is none of my buisness, that I’ll never understand, and see everything “black and white.” Today, after morning devotions with my Catholic housemates, I asked them to pray for her, and found myself suddenly grieving. Can anyone relate to this in any way? Am I wrong to feel this way about a decision that didn’t involve me, but nonetheless hurts anyway? God Bless.

                                                               Cameron

How can you have an older sister if your mom had her tubes tide after the death of her second child? Remember you are the one who brought up this topic, she proceeded to tell you about her tubes being tied b/c of your taking about contraception.

I am sorry you are hurting, but you really need to learn to forgive your mom and move on. I don’t blame my mom for having her’s tied (she didn’t know better at the time) per doctor’s orders. Heck, b/c she couldn’t have anymore children she adopted me. If she had not adopted me who knows what kind of life I’d have. Had I not been place for adoption I for sure would have been abused and in and out of foster care (as my bio-logical half siblings had been in their life with my bio-mom). If I had been placed with the other couple who may have adopted me I would not have been encouraged to get a good education and would have witnessed other problems beyond what I already have witnessed (my mom knew the other family who was being researched to adopt me). I have experienced plenty of pain in my life, but have learned that if I dwell in it then it will eat me alive and I’ll be miserable. I find it is much easier to forgive than not.

By the way… I don’t approve nor condone contraception, however I am a realist and realize that science and research, not to mention attitudes towards the medical field have advanced greatly even since 10 years ago. Not to mention, while the Church had made the information available at the time, I have found the common layman/woman was less educated back then about what and why the Church teaches in detail than today. My older relatives ALL went to Catholic grade and high schools but yet I find that I am the one educating them about Church teaching (and they went to school pre-Vatican II).

 

[kamz]

Ok, so what if cam’s mom used NFP to avoid another pregnancy because the doctor said it would happen again so she didn’t have her tubes tied but used NFP to avoid? Or how about if a mom is told she will die if she has another baby so she uses NFP for the rest of her fertile years to avoid another pregnancy… and her children or child finds out that mom used NFP to avoid another pregnancy even though mom would have died… so now that child is upset mom didn’t give them a sibling?

There are so many very personal senarios… I almost died giving birth to my 4th child and not knowing that it was a sin to have my tubes tied I had them tied four years ago… I hadn’t any idea it was against church teaching and I have been ill with it for the past four years, I have gone to confession repeatedly because I can’t come to terms with it… I am living in misery over this and am reminded of my sin every single time I see a pregnant woman… so I know what it is like to live with this and when my kids are grown I would be very, very hurt if they acted the way cam is… I have been as open as I can be for their ages about what I did and the fact that I did not know church teaching and that I have asked for God’s forgiveness many times… let me tell you… until you have lived this… you just DON’T know… you don’t know… I ache for Cam’s mom… weather she is saying it or not… believe me… it is a awful thing to live with… just awful and she will deal with it or has dealt with it… how do any of us know if she has asked forgiveness? My priest finally told me to stop confessing this to him… he keeps telling me that I am forgiven and I must forgive myself… well, easier said than done… I can’t… I just can’t forgive myself… please stop passing judgement on this woman… none of us really know what is in her heart and for us to think we do is just wrong.

 

[beckers]

Ok, so what if cam’s mom used NFP to avoid another pregnancy because the doctor said it would happen again so she didn’t have her tubes tied but used NFP to avoid? Or how about if a mom is told she will die if she has another baby so she uses NFP for the rest of her fertile years to avoid another pregnancy… and her children or child finds out that mom used NFP to avoid another pregnancy even though mom would have died… so now that child is upset mom didn’t give them a sibling?

There are so many very personal senarios… I almost died giving birth to my 4th child and not knowing that it was a sin to have my tubes tied I had them tied four years ago… I hadn’t any idea it was against church teaching and I have been ill with it for the past four years, I have gone to confession repeatedly because I can’t come to terms with it… I am living in misery over this and am reminded of my sin every single time I see a pregnant woman… so I know what it is like to live with this and when my kids are grown I would be very, very hurt if they acted the way cam is… I have been as open as I can be for their ages about what I did and the fact that I did not know church teaching and that I have asked for God’s forgiveness many times… let me tell you… until you have lived this… you just DON’T know… you don’t know… I ache for Cam’s mom… weather she is saying it or not… believe me… it is a awful thing to live with… just awful and she will deal with it or has dealt with it… how do any of us know if she has asked forgiveness? My priest finally told me to stop confessing this to him… he keeps telling me that I am forgiven and I must forgive myself… well, easier said than done… I can’t… I just can’t forgive myself… please stop passing judgement on this woman… none of us really know what is in her heart and for us to think we do is just wrong.

Thank you for your post.