Moment of Reckoning on Liturgical Abuses

[Yes]

This coming Saturday will be a “moment of reckoning” of sorts at my parish with regard to liturgical abuses. We are undergoing training for extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion and lay readers.

The training will be conducted by the “diocesan liturgist”, a liturgically abusive priest who did damage to the way the Mass is celebrated at our parish when he last visited about 4 years ago.

Things are different now. We have a GOOD new pastor (unfortunately he was under the care of the aformentioned priest while he was a tranditional deacon) and a new bishop.

What is the best way to get across that we need to stop several abuses. Most importantly:

• Laypersons entering the sanctuary and circling the altar during the kiss of peace. (The teaching priest instituted this when he was last here – the pastor at the time could care less.)
• Pouring the Precious Blood out of a flagon into 4 chalices.
• Using 7 or more EMsHC when maybe 2-3 are needed at the absolute most.
• The forced standing of altar servers even during the Consecration.

What would be the best way to challange this man without damaging my relationship with my pastor? I feel this could really be a turning point and I don’t want to miss the opportunity. Thank you.

 

[dylanschrader]

The abuses you mention are condemned in the instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum, which came out in 2004. If necessary, you could politely ask whether the priest is familiar with it.

I would recommend setting up a special meeting with the priest, being polite but not dancing around the issue. Tell him that you are concerned that the parish is doing some things which are liturgically inappropriate, even abuses.

Be able to back up what you’re saying. Your word against his is not going to get very far.

Remember, your parish has a right to the authentic celebration of the liturgy according to the liturgical norms. Not everyone in the parish is aware that what is going on is not correct, but they still suffer because the celebration is becoming confusing to them even if they don’t know it.

Redemptionis Sacramentum says:

[12.] On the contrary, it is the right of all of Christ’s faithful that the Liturgy, and in particular the celebration of Holy Mass, should truly be as the Church wishes, according to her stipulations as prescribed in the liturgical books and in the other laws and norms. Likewise, the Catholic people have the right that the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass should be celebrated for them in an integral manner, according to the entire doctrine of the Church’s Magisterium. Finally, it is the Catholic community’s right that the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharist should be carried out for it in such a manner that it truly stands out as a sacrament of unity, to the exclusion of all blemishes and actions that might engender divisions and factions in the Church.

Good luck!

 

[Windmill]

What is the best way to get across that we need to stop several abuses. Most importantly:

All quotes in red are from Redemptionis Sacramentum

• Laypersons entering the sanctuary and circling the altar during the kiss of peace. (The teaching priest instituted this when he was last here – the pastor at the time could care less.)

[72.] It is appropriate “that each one give the sign of peace only to those who are nearest and in a sober manner”. “The Priest may give the sign of peace to the ministers but always remains within the sanctuary, so as not to disturb the celebration. He does likewise if for a just reason he wishes to extend the sign of peace to some few of the faithful”.

• Pouring the Precious Blood out of a flagon into 4 chalices.

[106.] However, the pouring of the Blood of Christ after the consecration from one vessel to another is completely to be avoided, lest anything should happen that would be to the detriment of so great a mystery. Never to be used for containing the Blood of the Lord are flagons, bowls, or other vessels that are not fully in accord with the established norms.

• Using 7 or more EMsHC when maybe 2-3 are needed at the absolute most.

[158.] Indeed, the extraordinary minister of Holy Communion may administer Communion only when the Priest and Deacon are lacking, when the Priest is prevented by weakness or advanced age or some other genuine reason, or when the number of faithful coming to Communion is so great that the very celebration of Mass would be unduly prolonged. This, however, is to be understood in such a way that a brief prolongation, considering the circumstances and culture of the place, is not at all a sufficient reason.

• The forced standing of altar servers even during the Consecration.

See this article: Kneeling at Mass

What would be the best way to challange this man without damaging my relationship with my pastor? I feel this could really be a turning point and I don’t want to miss the opportunity. Thank you.

 

[maciejk60]

A few years ago I had the same problem at my Parish here is Orange County. We had several meetings with the then 'Liturgical Director" from the Diocese. His first comments were we that we were not trained in this area and we should follow what he “dictates”. After that did not work, he declared us dissenters.

I wrote the then Bishop and outlined what was going on and quoted what was “declared” by the Liturgical Director. The Bishop actually wrote back and stated I must have gotten things wrong! No way would a representative of his make such statements!

Well that gave me a great hint, especially in todays day and age. I wrote back the Bishop and copied the Liturgical Director and said. “Never again will there be a case of “he said-she said” I will video tape every meeting for future reference”

We were never visited by the Liturgical Director again!!! By the way, he is no longer a priest either!

 

[John_Lilburne]

…What is the best way to get across that we need to stop several abuses. Most importantly:

• Laypersons entering the sanctuary and circling the altar during the kiss of peace. (The teaching priest instituted this when he was last here – the pastor at the time could care less.)
• Pouring the Precious Blood out of a flagon into 4 chalices.
• Using 7 or more EMsHC when maybe 2-3 are needed at the absolute most.
• The forced standing of altar servers even during the Consecration.

What would be the best way to challange this man without damaging my relationship with my pastor? I feel this could really be a turning point and I don’t want to miss the opportunity. Thank you.

If the relationship with the pastor is important then it would make sense to approach him privately or write him a letter about the issues. Perhaps he will agree and address them at the meeting or in another way.

If you raise the matters is a public meeting, listing these things the pastor allows as abuses, the pastor is likely to feel humiliated and your relationship with him damaged.

It seems to me that the number of Extraordinary Ministers is the pastor’s call. It is not a liturgical abuse if he honestly thinks that is how many he needs. So I would not raise this, at least until progress has been made on the other issues.

Some documentation on the other issues:

FLAGON
2004 Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum:
“[106.] However, the pouring of the Blood of Christ after the consecration from one vessel to another is completely to be avoided, lest anything should happen that would be to the detriment of so great a mystery. Never to be used for containing the Blood of the Lord are flagons, bowls, or other vessels that are not fully in accord with the established norms.”

SIGN OF PEACE
From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“154. … The priest may give the sign of peace to the ministers but always remains within the sanctuary, so as not to disturb the celebration. In the dioceses of the United States of America, for a good reason, on special occasions (for example, in the case of a funeral, a wedding, or when civic leaders are present) the priest may offer the sign of peace to a few of the faithful near the sanctuary.”
Also n. 294 may be helpful on this.

KNEELING FOR CONSECRATION
2002 GIRM
“43. The faithful should … In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. …”.
If in England or Wales, their 2002 GIRM has:
“43. … But they should kneel at the consecration, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.”

Sometimes questions can be more diplomatic, for example, “Has our bishop given any directions about the posture of the people during the Eucharistic Prayer?”

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

The diocessan liturgist receives his authority from the bishop. He was probably appointed by the bishop or at the very least the current bishop asked him to remain on. Be aware, therefore, that going against him probably will not do much good within your diocese.

Keep in mind as well that he more than likely has advanced degrees in liturgy and is keeping up on the latest developments in this area.

Without being there, I can’t make any comment on whether abuses are occurring. But keep in mind that what people often THINK documents are saying is not what they are saying. You may think it says something in plain english; but it would be akin to you and I reading civil law books and quoting laws. There’s a good chance that laws that sound to us like they fit a particular situation actually do not, and only a lawyer would know this.

 

[scylla]

Pax is right, going head to head with this guy is probably a bad idea. Usually these type people are pretty emotional and very clever in dodging truth.

There really should be no innovation in the liturgy, yet development should always be encouraged if it is consistant with tradition, which is a reflection of the truth. Development in this way…
Giving respect to God is of utmost importance so we should refrain from extraordinary activities at Mass such as holding a raffle. (which recently happened in my parish)

One thing you should stress is that truth matters and tradition doesn’t change as it reflects what truth is. This will keep you focused on what is important when you talk to someone like this as many times you will hear silly things like, early Christians practiced this this way, so we should.

Early Christians got drunk at Mass, so should we make the same mistakes again?

Be very careful, clear and wise as many of the liberals, especially the more educated ones can twist words in documents to mean pretty much everything they want. So full participation can mean Sister heretic giving a homily on the virtues of Fidel Castro or female oppression in the Church.

God Bless and keep the faith,
Scylla

 

[Yes]

…I wrote the then Bishop and outlined what was going on and quoted what was “declared” by the Liturgical Director. The Bishop actually wrote back and stated I must have gotten things wrong! No way would a representative of his make such statements!..

I wrote a similar letter to our former bishop. I thought it was well crafted. No emotion just an IS: xyz and S/B: xyz with direct quotes from the GIRM and RS.

“His” response (at least it was on his letterhead with his signature) was crude and petulent. In essence it said “I am amazed you have the time to write such letters” and “I’m the final arbitrator of what takes place in my diocese, so buzz off.”

I don’t know if he dictated the letter or if one of his offended minions drafted it for his signature, but it was a clear sign that no improvement was going to take place during his reign.

Now that we have a new pastor and a new bishop, things DO seem to be improving, so I thought this Daturday would be a good time to bring-up some of these matters.

 

[Yes]

The diocessan liturgist receives his authority from the bishop. He was probably appointed by the bishop or at the very least the current bishop asked him to remain on. Be aware, therefore, that going against him probably will not do much good within your diocese.

The bishop has been on the job for a few months. I doubt he would have stripped this guy of his title – just yet.

Keep in mind as well that he more than likely has advanced degrees in liturgy and is keeping up on the latest developments in this area.

So? He has actively instituted abusive practices at my parish in the past.

Without being there, I can’t make any comment on whether abuses are occurring. But keep in mind that what people often THINK documents are saying is not what they are saying. You may think it says something in plain english; but it would be akin to you and I reading civil law books and quoting laws. There’s a good chance that laws that sound to us like they fit a particular situation actually do not, and only a lawyer would know this.

Not true. We are not trying to self-interpret some obscure passage from the Bible or some arcane paragraph from Canon Law. The abuses and their corresponding correct practices we are talking about are extremely well documented by the Church in very clear language. They are also commented on at length by respected experts, also in clear language.

 

[Yes]

…There really should be no innovation in the liturgy, yet development should always be encouraged if it is consistant with tradition, which is a reflection of the truth…

I’m not really at all sure what “development” means in this context, particularly with respect to “innovation.” Don’t get me wrong. I have seen self-important people try to impose elements into the Mass that are not supported by the Church under the guise of solemnity and tradition. That is just as bad as the person who tries to introduce one of the horrific abuses that we are all aware of.

I would never suggest something is amiss unless it was very clearly documented by the Church. An ideal example right now is the purification of sacred vessels by anyone other than clerics or instituted acolytes. Our indult (at least in the USA) has run out. The Pope has specifically said it will not be renewed. That leaves very little wiggle room.

P.S. This is nothing to do with “liberals.” I almost consider that a slur in this context.

 

[scylla]

I mean development in the way that conducting the Mass on an altar instead of a rock, or worshipping in an ornate Church instead of a catacomb.

These days it would be…
Develop as in bring out the truth and enrich the faith, more accurate, beautiful statues, better more articulate homilies, more ornate, tasteful and beautiful Churches, give the best to God to honor God.

I am pretty sure liberal covers it, it would be a slur if the person was faithful to the Church and cared about preserving truth. But when truth is dependent upon perspective then the person is exhibiting liberal views and should be denounced and labeled.

I have no problem calling a spade a spade.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Yes]

Develop as in bring out the truth and enrich the faith, more accurate, beautiful statues, better more articulate homilies, more ornate, tasteful and beautiful Churches, give the best to God to honor God.

I don’t see any of that as being “development.”

I am pretty sure liberal covers it, it would be a slur if the person was faithful to the Church and cared about preserving truth. But when truth is dependent upon perspective then the person is exhibiting liberal views and should be denounced and labeled.

I have no problem calling a spade a spade.

I can almost feel my eyes glaze over when I hear someone spew labels like “liberal” when it comes to describing people they believe are abusive. There are plenty of VERY “liberal” (politically and otherwise) Catholics out there who are also VERY orthodox. Conversely there are also plenty of conservatives out there who are quite heterodox.

I even know some “traditional Catholics” who are quite judgemental yet are very heterodox in their own ways…

 

[scylla]

So what do you see is development? Is making the Church more faithful development?

Politics really don’t matter as we are not of this world we are just in it. I am talking about liberal not in a political manner but in a manner which describes how some approach the Holy Faith.
They see it as a personal expression of their view of God rather than a submission to the revealed truth of God.

Of course there are some who call themselves traditional who do the same that doesn’t make liberal Catholic right it just proves that people don’t do what is right even when they call themselves faithful.

We are all supposed to be judgemental or it doesn’t matter what we believe or what others believe. Now what we cannot judge is the state of a persons soul at judgement. I can certainly call a person disrespecting God, a person committing sacrilege.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[obadiah]

:

• Laypersons entering the sanctuary and circling the altar during the kiss of peace. (The teaching priest instituted this when he was last here – the pastor at the time could care less.)
• Pouring the Precious Blood out of a flagon into 4 chalices.
• Using 7 or more EMsHC when maybe 2-3 are needed at the absolute most.
• The forced standing of altar servers even during the Consecration.

What would be the best way to challange this man without damaging my relationship with my pastor? I feel this could really be a turning point and I don’t want to miss the opportunity. Thank you.

According to Eastern Orthodox Rubrics:

A lay Person is not to enter the Sanctuary, only Clergy.

On Sundays, EVERYBODY stands during the consecration.

 

[Yes]

According to Eastern Orthodox Rubrics:

A lay Person is not to enter the Sanctuary, only Clergy.

On Sundays, EVERYBODY stands during the consecration.

So?

 

[Yes]

So what do you see is development? Is making the Church more faithful development?

Politics really don’t matter as we are not of this world we are just in it. I am talking about liberal not in a political manner but in a manner which describes how some approach the Holy Faith.
They see it as a personal expression of their view of God rather than a submission to the revealed truth of God.

Of course there are some who call themselves traditional who do the same that doesn’t make liberal Catholic right it just proves that people don’t do what is right even when they call themselves faithful.

We are all supposed to be judgemental or it doesn’t matter what we believe or what others believe. Now what we cannot judge is the state of a persons soul at judgement. I can certainly call a person disrespecting God, a person committing sacrilege.

God Bless
Scylla

You’re just making the mistake of trying to equate “liberal” to heterodox and “conservative/traditional” to orthodox and it just dosen’t work. That’s limited/reductionist thinking at best.

To be quite candid, your definition of a “liberal” (or “they”) appears to be made-up.

One can be quite liberal and embrace changes in the Church (as defined by the Church) that bother some so-called “traditional Catholics” who dissent with their resistance.

I just follow God and His Son through their Church, the Catholic Church – and I leave the judging to them.

 

[obadiah]

What is the best way to get across that we need to stop several abuses. Most importantly:

• Laypersons entering the sanctuary and circling the altar during the kiss of peace. (The teaching priest instituted this when he was last here – the pastor at the time could care less.)
• Pouring the Precious Blood out of a flagon into 4 chalices.
• The forced standing of altar servers even during the Consecration.

What would be the best way to challange this man without damaging my relationship with my pastor? I feel this could really be a turning point and I don’t want to miss the opportunity. Thank you.

SO?!!?

 

[obadiah]

So?

Don’t you think these things are important?

 

[bkovacs]

According to Eastern Orthodox Rubrics:

A lay Person is not to enter the Sanctuary, only Clergy.

On Sundays, EVERYBODY stands during the consecration.

Hey that is similar to what is the norm at Traditional Catholic Masses that use the 1962 missal. Traditional Catholics do have similar things in common to the Orthodox liturgically. We both use the chant, incense, male alter servers, and only clergy as well. My advice to her is if she cannot attend a Traditional Catholic Mass. Go to a local Orthodox parish, for the safety of her soul.

 

[obadiah]

You’re just making the mistake of trying to equate “liberal” to heterodox and “conservative/traditional” to orthodox and it just dosen’t work. That’s limited/reductionist thinking at best.

To be quite candid, your definition of a “liberal” (or “they”) appears to be made-up.

One can be quite liberal and embrace changes in the Church (as defined by the Church) that bother some so-called “traditional Catholics” who dissent with their resistance.

I just follow God and His Son through their Church, the Catholic Church – and I leave the judging to them.

Dear YES, do you think that the traditional Catholic Traditions are faulty in some way?!? Do you think that
" Holding fast " is " liberal " or made up? Do you think
" embracing changes in the Church " is according to the faith of the Fathers?