Montana Catholic Bishops Will Not Support Constitutional Amendment Defining Personhood

  • Thread starter Thread starter childofmary1143
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
No, but they understand the wise use of resources. They understand that their limited resources are better spent on other initiatives (see the Bishops memo in a previous post). Frankly, it is futile to attempt to overturn a federal consitituion ruling with a state constitution ruling.

I could see Montana becomming a haven for illegal immigrants. If the state recognizes the unborn child as a person, they would be a US citizen before they were born. No threat of deportation there, get ready Montana, here they come!

Nohome
I take it that you find nothing wrong or offensive with your prejudicial, discriminatory statement about the immigrants and their unborn children.
And that, that is the “unfortunate” disadvantage you see for Montana?? Here they come??!!?
🤷
 
While I will not presume to tell the Bishops of Montana what they should do with regard to this proposal I will say that I hope it passes, and if I lived there I would be working to that end.

Roe V Wade was decided based on Amendment XIV’s assertion that no person shall be deprived of life liberty or property without due process (paraphrase). The reasoning of the Court was that the mother is clearly a person who should not be deprived of liberty (to kill her baby) because the personhood of the unborn child, in the opinion of the justices, is not as certain.

Since then, this interpretation has stood as precedent, meaning that many justices who might not necessarily agree with it, might feel bound to honor this precedent. It takes a lot to get a court to overturn precedent. When Brown V. Board of Education overturned Plessy V. Ferguson, one of the things that caused the shift was what the Court viewed as a major shift in the thinking of the American people as evidenced by practices and laws in many states. This logic has also been used in some of the recent decisions limiting the application of the death penalty to people who were minors at the time of the crime or suffer from mental disability.

If enough states pass similar laws or amendments to state constitutions, the Court might see this as evidence of a shift in the thinking of the American people and be more inclined to overturn precedent and recognize that the unborn child is in fact a person, which would make the deliberate killing of said child murder.
 
Thank you, Nohome. 🙂 It seems the Montana bishops are deferring to a future federal Human Life Amendment. They indicate that the USCCB is working on such an amendment, but the National Committee for a Human Life Amendment, which says it is working closely with the USCCB, seems to indicate that a federal Human Life Amendment is on the back burner.

This leaves the decision of the Montana bishops a bit disappointing, but they make a good point that alternate strategies can be pursued to lessen the number of abortions:
Montana Bishops:
  1. Establishing and funding pregnancy help centers that promote informed choice by offering alternatives to abortion, especially adoption;
  2. Provide supportive services to pregnant and parenting women including low income women and college students patterned after the federal “Pregnant Woman Support Act”;
    *** a very good bill, which didn’t go anywhere, unfortunately
  3. Bolster adoption alternatives by increasing adoption services for women who place their infant for adoption;
  4. Pass a law requiring parental notification with judicial bypass in cases where the woman seeking abortion is under eighteeen
40.png
Nohome:
They are calling a zygote a human. I defer back to my statement about breakfast, did I eat scrambled chicken this morning?
Not likely, but I suppose it is possible. Did you use fertilized eggs?
 
Thank you, Nohome. 🙂 It seems the Montana bishops are deferring to a future federal Human Life Amendment. They indicate that the USCCB is working on such an amendment, but the National Committee for a Human Life Amendment, which says it is working closely with the USCCB, seems to indicate that a federal Human Life Amendment is on the back burner.

This leaves the decision of the Montana bishops a bit disappointing, but they make a good point that alternate strategies can be pursued to lessen the number of abortions:

Not likely, but I suppose it is possible. Did you use fertilized eggs?
 
Not likely, but I suppose it is possible. Did you use fertilized eggs?
We buy farm raised, free range eggs. Roosters all over the place. So, yes, they were fertilized. Often there is a tiny embryo visible.

Nohome
 
No, but they understand the wise use of resources. They understand that their limited resources are better spent on other initiatives (see the Bishops memo in a previous post). Frankly, it is futile to attempt to overturn a federal consitituion ruling with a state constitution ruling.

I could see Montana becomming a haven for illegal immigrants. If the state recognizes the unborn child as a person, they would be a US citizen before they were born. No threat of deportation there, get ready Montana, here they come!

Nohome
Ok, I’m guessing that you are the one that needs the sensitivity training. Here goes.

When the Archangel Gabriel announced to Mary that she would be with child and that this child would be by the power of the Holy Spirit and would be God with us, he also told Mary about her cousin Elizabeth who was 6 months pregnant. Elizabeth lived in the mountainous region Judea. From Nazareth, where Mary lived, it must’ve been about a week or two travelling in a caravan. So, by the time Mary reach Elizabeth home and called out to her, “Elizabeth, it’s me Mary”. It is indicated in the Gospel that the child in Elizabeth womb leapt for joy and was according to the Gospel (and the prophets) filled with the Holy Spirit.
Now, my question to you is, was John the Baptist filled with the Holy Spirit because of Mary’s presence?

(Keep in mind that already from Her “fiat” she was co-redemtrix, co-mediatrix and advocate. But that’s another subject.)

Give up?..Saint John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother’s womb because of the presence of Jesus Christ in Mary’s womb!
Life begins at conception! Mary couldn’t have been more than 1 or 2 weeks pregnant. Jesus (zygot or not) was already a person.

To deny this is to deny the Incarnation, The Divinity of Christ and the sanctity of life given by God.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
 
I take it that you find nothing wrong or offensive with your prejudicial, discriminatory statement about the immigrants and their unborn children.
And that, that is the “unfortunate” disadvantage you see for Montana?? Here they come??!!?
🤷
I didn’t say a thing about immigrants, I mentioned illegal immigrants. The difference is profound.

I was pointing out a legal reality this constitutional amendment would create. You could have illegal immigrants carrying US citizens. Just another reason the CI-100 will be DOA.

Nohome
 
Ok, I’m guessing that you are the one that needs the sensitivity training. Here goes.

When the Archangel Gabriel announced to Mary that she would be with child and that this child would be by the power of the Holy Spirit and would be God with us, he also told Mary about her cousin Elizabeth who was 6 months pregnant. Elizabeth lived in the mountainous region Judea. From Nazareth, where Mary lived, it must’ve been about a week or two travelling in a caravan. So, by the time Mary reach Elizabeth home and called out to her, “Elizabeth, it’s me Mary”. It is indicated in the Gospel that the child in Elizabeth womb leapt for joy and was according to the Gospel (and the prophets) filled with the Holy Spirit.
Now, my question to you is, was John the Baptist filled with the Holy Spirit because of Mary’s presence?

(Keep in mind that already from Her “fiat” she was co-redemtrix, co-mediatrix and advocate. But that’s another subject.)

Give up?..Saint John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother’s womb because of the presence of Jesus Christ in Mary’s womb!
Life begins at conception! Mary couldn’t have been more than 1 or 2 weeks pregnant. Jesus (zygot or not) was already a person.

To deny this is to deny the Incarnation, The Divinity of Christ and the sanctity of life given by God.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
Hey, that’s all great. If the people of Montana use your treatise to defend CI-100 when it gets to court (and it will), it will be thrown out faster than you can say separation of church and state.

Nohome
 
When life begins and the definition of a human being are two different things. Is an acorn an oak tree? Did I have scrambled eggs for breakfast or scrambled chicken? These are the kind of things that become problematic with such a definition.

Do we allow women with ectopic pregnancies to die because it would be murder to save her life? Do we investigate every miscarriage as a possible murder? These are the absurdities that come with such a definition.

Nohome
Nohome, are you saying that a different stage of development should allow humans to kill each other?

If you are consistent with the belief that a human within the womb can be killed due to the stage of development, then you must accept that anyone of us can be killed at any stage of development.

Acorn to an oak is not teenager to a senior. After conception, the egg has hatched. Surely you are not trying to deny pure scientific fact?
 
We buy farm raised, free range eggs. Roosters all over the place. So, yes, they were fertilized. Often there is a tiny embryo visible.

Nohome
Well then, yes, I suppose you did eat scrambled unborn chickens. 🤷

Next question? 😉

BTW…speaking of bird’s eggs…unborn eaglets have more protection than unborn humans:
fws.gov/midwest/eagle/protect/laws.html

Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act
Lacey Act
Migratory Bird Treaty ActPDF Version

Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act

The bald eagle will continue to be protected by the Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act even though it has been delisted under the Endangered Species Act. This law, originally passed in 1940, provides for the protection of the bald eagle and the golden eagle (as amended in 1962) by prohibiting the take, possession, sale, purchase, barter, offer to sell, purchase or barter, transport, export or import, of any bald or golden eagle, alive or dead, including any part, nest, or egg, unless allowed by permit http://www.fws.gov/midwest/eagle/images/intree.jpg (16 U.S.C. 668(a); 50 CFR 22). “Take” includes pursue, shoot, shoot at, poison, wound, kill, capture, trap, collect, molest or disturb (16 U.S.C. 668c; 50 CFR 22.3). The 1972 amendments increased civil penalties for violating provisions of the Act to a maximum fine of $5,000 or one year imprisonment with $10,000 or not more than two years in prison for a second conviction. Felony convictions carry a maximum fine of $250,000 or two years of imprisonment. The fine doubles for an organization. Rewards are provided for information leading to arrest and conviction for violation of the Act.
The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service prepared Bald Eagle Management Guidelines to help landowners, land managers and others to meet the intent of this Act.
Lacey Act

Protections provided by the Lacey Act will continue even though the bald eagle has been delisted under the Endangered Species Act. This law, passed in 1900, protects bald eagles by making it a Federal offense to take, possess, transport, sell, import, or export their nests, eggs and parts that are taken in violation of any state, tribal or U.S. law. It also prohibits false records, labels, or identification of wildlife shipped, prohibits importation of injurious species and prohibits shipment of fish or wildlife in an inhumane manner. Penalties include a maximum of five years and $250,000 fine for felony convictions and a maximum $10,000 fine for civil violations and $250 for marking violations. Fines double for organizations. Rewards are provided for information leading to arrest and conviction. violation of the Act.
Migratory Bird Treaty Act

The Migratory Bird Treaty Act is a Federal law that carries out the United States’ commitment to four international conventions with Canada, Japan, Mexico and Russia. Those conventions protect birds that migrate across international borders.
The take of all migratory birds, including bald eagles, is governed by the Migratory Birds Treaty Act’s regulations. The Migratory Bird Treaty Act (MBTA) prohibits the taking, killing, possession, transportation, and importation of migratory birds, their eggs, parts, and nests except as authorized under a valid permit (50 CFR 21.11). Additionally, the MBTA authorizes and directs the Secretary of the Interior to determine if, and by what means, the take of migratory birds should be allowed and to adopt suitable regulations permitting and governing take (for example, hunting seasons for ducks and geese).
Penalties under the MBTA include a maximum of two years imprisonment and $250,000 fine for a felony conviction and six months imprisonment or $5,000 fine for a misdemenor conviction. Fines double if the violator is an organization rather than an individual.
The MBTA and its implementing regulations provide authority for the conservation of bald eagles and protect against take if the Endangered Species Act protections are removed.
 
Nohome, are you saying that a different stage of development should allow humans to kill each other?
No, where did I say that? Why am I pro-abortion just because I think CI-100 is a dumb idea?
If you are consistent with the belief that a human within the womb can be killed due to the stage of development, then you must accept that anyone of us can be killed at any stage of development.
Back up the wagon partner! I didn’t say anything about killing anyone at any stage of development. I just said CI-100 is stupid, will encounter all kinds of legal problems and will be thrown out in court. Why would you pursue a losing argument?
Acorn to an oak is not teenager to a senior. After conception, the egg has hatched. Surely you are not trying to deny pure scientific fact?
Acorn is to oak as zygote is to human. Where did the teenagers come in to play? Human eggs don’t hatch! We are not oviparous, nor are we ovoviviparous. Humans are viviparous, no hatching required.

You folks read WAY too much into my comments.

Nohome
 
Well then, yes, I suppose you did eat scrambled unborn chickens.
But the sign on the farm house lawn says "Farm Fresh Eggs, $2.00/Doz. Civil law does not differentiate between the two.

Nohome
 
No, where did I say that? Why am I pro-abortion just because I think CI-100 is a dumb idea?

Back up the wagon partner! I didn’t say anything about killing anyone at any stage of development. I just said CI-100 is stupid, will encounter all kinds of legal problems and will be thrown out in court. Why would you pursue a losing argument?

Acorn is to oak as zygote is to human. Where did the teenagers come in to play? Human eggs don’t hatch! We are not oviparous, nor are we ovoviviparous. Humans are viviparous, no hatching required.

You folks read WAY too much into my comments.

Nohome
Nohome, a zygote is not comparable to an acorn. A human zygote is at a specific stage of development, just as infants, teenagers and seniors are at certain stages of development.

A non-fertilized egg is comparable to an acorn.

Now, Nohome, tell me the significance of defining a human at a certain stage of development as non-human (legally, non-person).

For African slaves, the significance was being able to buy, sell and use them for labour in the Southern economy.

For European Jews, the significance was being able to take all their personal property and wealth, then have a handy excuse to exterminate them.

I am curious why you think it is beneficial for American or Britain governments to define a human at a certain age as a non-person/non-human. What do you really think this is supposed to allow? Free healthcare for them? 🤷
 
A non-fertilized egg is comparable to an acorn.
An acorn IS a fertilized egg. It has a complete set of genetic instructions. It is one developmental stage of an oak tree. Crack open a biology book and see for yourself. Conception of the oak tree occurs before the acorn in formed.
Now, Nohome, tell me the significance of defining a human at a certain stage of development as non-human (legally, non-person).
Try claiming your unborn child as a dependent on your tax return. Better yet, apply for a social security card. You can’t. Why? Simple NO BIRTH CERTIFICATE.
For African slaves, the significance was being able to buy, sell and use them for labour in the Southern economy.)
There were also freed slaves. Slaves were not considered non-human. They were considered owned by others. Their freedom could be bought. Once said freedom was bought, they could not be returned to slavery.
For European Jews, the significance was being able to take all their personal property and wealth, then have a handy excuse to exterminate them.
They were still human. Persecuted humans.
I am curious why you think it is beneficial for American or Britain governments to define a human at a certain age as a non-person/non-human. What do you really think this is supposed to allow? Free healthcare for them? 🤷
Never said it was beneficial, just that civil law is what it is.

Children, though human, are recognised differently from adults in civil law. Same thing with the unborn. Life may begin at conception, but life as an autonomous being begins at birth.

I’m not in any way, shape or form saying that this gives anyone license to kill unborn life, just that it is dealt with in civil law differently. To change it would be to change nearly every law on the books.

Nohome
 
But the sign on the farm house lawn says "Farm Fresh Eggs, $2.00/Doz. Civil law does not differentiate between the two.

Nohome
Why should it? It is legal to eat chicken…scrambled or otherwise. 😛
 
But the sign on the farm house lawn says "Farm Fresh Eggs, $2.00/Doz. Civil law does not differentiate between the two.

Nohome
BTW…in the case of the eaglets, the law does not differentiate between killing an eagle, an eaglet or an egg (fertilized or not). So, I don’t see a problem with enacting legislation that protects an unborn human child from being killed…although eggs would be going a little far.
 
An acorn IS a fertilized egg. It has a complete set of genetic instructions. It is one developmental stage of an oak tree. Crack open a biology book and see for yourself. Conception of the oak tree occurs before the acorn in formed.

Try claiming your unborn child as a dependent on your tax return. Better yet, apply for a social security card. You can’t. Why? Simple NO BIRTH CERTIFICATE.

There were also freed slaves. Slaves were not considered non-human. They were considered owned by others. Their freedom could be bought. Once said freedom was bought, they could not be returned to slavery.

They were still human. Persecuted humans.

Never said it was beneficial, just that civil law is what it is.

Children, though human, are recognised differently from adults in civil law. Same thing with the unborn. Life may begin at conception, but life as an autonomous being begins at birth.

I’m not in any way, shape or form saying that this gives anyone license to kill unborn life, just that it is dealt with in civil law differently. To change it would be to change nearly every law on the books.

Nohome
Nohome, you are posting on a thread regarding the subject of which humans received the legal status of personhood and which ones haven’t.

I am pointing out that a group of humans, based solely on their location and their specific stage of development, are given a status of non-person legally. This status, as clarified by the government, endorses the killing of these humans.

Historically, such a status has been used only for reasons of control, mutilation, extermination, slavery, discrimination, etc.

You asked how in the world I read into your post as being pro-killing of a non-person humans.

I am asking, what is the purpose of a government in labelling groups of humans as non-persons?

And furthermore, by doing so, I am stating that those who support calling certain humans non-persons must consistently follow their statement; thus, every human can be called a non-person and thus, whatever that means to the particular government in question must be done to the human now defined as a non-person.

Your deliberately obtuse jumping is only clarifying the obvious.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top