Moral Basis for copyright and similar laws

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On the subject of culture, copyright interferes with the functioning of culture. People, when not prohibited by law, will change or add verses to songs to adapt them to their circumstances. Stories get changed, and new stories using the same characters and lands get created by people who did not originally invent the characters and lands.

These processes have occurred for millenia, but are violations of copyright law.
No. This shows you don’t get the “public domain” concept yet. Again, that link I posted a while ago takes you to the actual laws
In previous centuries, giving credit where credit was due meant giving credit for the works you’ve written to the people by whom they were most inspired. So if an author wrote a book based on the teachings of an individual, credit for the work would frequently go to the person who did the teaching, not the author.
That still goes on to this day. Credits and dedications and citations and footnotes give that credit. The monetary credit goes to the people who published, promoted and distributed this NEW WORK. The author gets a slice of that.
 
What matters more than whether copyright and similar laws fit capitalism or communism is whether they fit the teachings of the Catholic Church.
Jesus said “the servant is worthy of his hire”. Does the Catholic Chatechism negate that?
 
What matters more than whether copyright and similar laws fit capitalism or communism is whether they fit the teachings of the Catholic Church.
Well, if you look at the bottom of this webpage, you will see this notice: “Copyright © 2004-07, Catholic Answers.” And if you look at the US Conference of Catholic Bishops’ website, you will find the following at the bottom of the page: " © USCCB. All rights reserved." I hope they are not violating Church doctrine.
 
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Originally Posted by johnwis View Post
The competition between publishers is in getting sales, which may or may not involve getting the best possible writers.
there’s no “may not” involved.
If Shakespeare is what sells best, there’s no reason for publishers to pay writers, with or without copyright law.
I can only guess since you never answered my question about WHY you are against people’s creative works beign protected.
I am against limiting the benefit of anyone’s work to other people beyond what is necessary to allow those who labor to obtain just remuneration for their labor.

The real value that needs protecting is in the labor of workers, whether the labor be intellectual or manual. It doesn’t matter whether anyone can make money from selling copies of music as long as those who labor get remuneration for their labor.
excuse me? so who prints the music? Who advertise it? Who distributes it?
That “agreement of employment” you kept discussing is between the composer and the publisher. Are you seriously saying a composer would have to do all of the above?
I am not saying the composer would have to print and distribute the music.

The person who wants to play the music is the one who needs a printed copy, so they could print it themselves, pay someone else to print a copy, or buy an already printed copy.

Without copyright advertising and distribution of good compositions are free because people who like it will discuss it with other people and distribute copies to each other.

The employment agreement I keep mentioning is between someone who wants a piece of music composed and a composer, whether the person or company that wants the music composed is a publisher, a sheet music store, a company making a move or television show, or someone who just likes music and wants something new to listen to.

If people want new music, it isn’t available, and they can’t afford it individually, they will pool their money to hire composers to compose it.
 
No. This shows you don’t get the “public domain” concept yet. Again, that link I posted a while ago takes you to the actual laws
I do understand the public domain. If a work is in the public domain it can be used for the purposes I mentioned above. While a work is under copyright it is not in the public domain, and therefore can not be used in the cultural processes I described above. Until a few hundred years ago, everything was in the public domain, no matter how newly written it was.
That still goes on to this day. Credits and dedications and citations and footnotes give that credit. The monetary credit goes to the people who published, promoted and distributed this NEW WORK. The author gets a slice of that.
If these other contributors mentioned in the credits, dedications, citations, and footnotes don’t deserver a monetary cut from the proceeds of the copies of the book, then why does the author if someone other than the author is the one who makes and sells copies of the book.

There is no human being who writes a book, song, or anything else without being heavily influenced by people and events.
 
Jesus said “the servant is worthy of his hire”. Does the Catholic Chatechism negate that?
The Catechism is does not negate that, and neither do I. For creative people to be hired, whether as regular employees or contractors, is exactly what I’m advocating.

According to www.merriam-webster.com, a hire is “payment for labor or personal services”, which copyright is not.
 
Well, if you look at the bottom of this webpage, you will see this notice: “Copyright © 2004-07, Catholic Answers.” And if you look at the US Conference of Catholic Bishops’ website, you will find the following at the bottom of the page: " © USCCB. All rights reserved." I hope they are not violating Church doctrine.
First, as you may realize, Church officials have violated the teaching of the Church on many occasions, so what particular groups in the Church do can not be taken as an indicator of Church teaching.

Second, what matters is not what label is slapped on something, but the actual restrictions placed on the benefit people can derive from what has been created.

Third, I am a little bothered by the “All Rights Reserved” part of the quote from the USCCB web site.

I think any misuse of copyright law by Church officials is due to misunderstanding the issues involved and not intentionally disregarding Church teaching. After all, modern copyright law and technologies that highlight its problems, have not been around long compared to the Church, so the Church has not had much time to examine the issues.
 
The CCC in 2405 states “Goods of production–material or immaterial-- such as land, factories, practical or artistic skills, oblige their possessors to employ them in ways that will benefit the greatest number.”

In 2404 it states “‘In his use of things man should regard the external goods he legitimately owns not merely as exclusive to himself but common to others also, in the sense that they can benefit others as well as himself.’”
This just means that an artist should prefer to sell his art to a public art gallery rather than a private collector, so that it can be seen by a wider audience; it doesn’t mean that he should allow himself to be ripped off, or have to give his work away for free just because someone can’t pay. Galleries are also a lot more likely to honour the copyright law, and give him a portion of any sales of greeting cards, calendars, etc. that they make from his art.
 
The Catechism is does not negate that, and neither do I. For creative people to be hired, whether as regular employees or contractors, is exactly what I’m advocating.
That’s not how the creative process works, though. Paintings, books, and music can’t be produced assembly line style at a minimum hourly wage, with the expectation of so many paintings, or so many books, or so many songs, in a specified period of time. The creative process isn’t like factory piece-work.
According to www.merriam-webster.com, a hire is “payment for labor or personal services”, which copyright is not.
That’s why you don’t “hire” creative people - because they don’t produce labour for personal services. You just buy their finished works, or the copyright to make copies from their finished works, after the creative process is over.
 
This just means that an artist should prefer to sell his art to a public art gallery rather than a private collector, so that it can be seen by a wider audience;
Even in a public art gallery, literally billions of people will not be able to see it if copies can not be distributed to other parts of the world, including those parts who can not afford to pay to see it.
it doesn’t mean that he should allow himself to be ripped off, or have to give his work away for free just because someone can’t pay.
I agree it means he shouldn’t be ripped off. If someone has hired him to create a work or wants the physical piece of art, they need to pay him. If he doesn’t want to give his labor away for free, he doesn’t have to. He can just wait to do his labor until he is hired.
Galleries are also a lot more likely to honour the copyright law, and give him a portion of any sales of greeting cards, calendars, etc. that they make from his art.
How is whether an art gallery will abide by copyright law relevant to whether the restrictions spelled out in copyright law are just.
 
That’s not how the creative process works, though. Paintings, books, and music can’t be produced assembly line style at a minimum hourly wage, with the expectation of so many paintings, or so many books, or so many songs, in a specified period of time. The creative process isn’t like factory piece-work.
You are correct that it isn’t usually done like factory work, but it is frequently commissioned, in which the artistic laborer is hired to create a particular piece or set of pieces. If a company wants a mural in the lobby of its office building, it hires an artist to paint the mural. If a movie company wants a soundtrack for a movie, they frequently, admittedly not always, hire a composer and musicians to produce the music they need.
 
You are correct that it isn’t usually done like factory work, but it is frequently commissioned, in which the artistic laborer is hired to create a particular piece or set of pieces. If a company wants a mural in the lobby of its office building, it hires an artist to paint the mural. If a movie company wants a soundtrack for a movie, they frequently, admittedly not always, hire a composer and musicians to produce the music they need.
And if they are also going to want to include the work in a book, or make greeting cards, calendars, etc., or make a stand-alone recording of the music for sale to tourists and/or fans of the movie, then they include that in the contract, as well - the artist or composer knows exactly what is going to happen to the work once it is delivered to the client.
 
Even in a public art gallery, literally billions of people will not be able to see it if copies can not be distributed to other parts of the world, including those parts who can not afford to pay to see it.
If the gallery wants to make postcards or art books that include these artworks, the artist is informed of it, and gets paid to release the copyright to the gallery so that they can do that. The process is not all that difficult; it’s just a matter of open and honest communications.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnwis View Post
Even in a public art gallery, literally billions of people will not be able to see it if copies can not be distributed to other parts of the world, including those parts who can not afford to pay to see it.
If the gallery wants to make postcards or art books that include these artworks, the artist is informed of it, and gets paid to release the copyright to the gallery so that they can do that. The process is not all that difficult; it’s just a matter of open and honest communications.
If what is included in the contract is fair remuneration for the labor done, then as long as the employer abides by the contract, the artistic laborer has his fair remuneration, regardless of what else is done with the fruit of his labor or copies thereof.

If the contract does not provide just remuneration for the labor done, then the problem is in the contract for the labor.
 
That last post was supposed to quote the post before the one it did
 
If the gallery wants to make postcards or art books that include these artworks, the artist is informed of it, and gets paid to release the copyright to the gallery so that they can do that. The process is not all that difficult; it’s just a matter of open and honest communications.
That still does not address access by people who can not afford whatever cost the art gallery decides to charge.
 
If what is included in the contract is fair remuneration for the labor done, then as long as the employer abides by the contract, the artistic laborer has his fair remuneration, regardless of what else is done with the fruit of his labor or copies thereof.
This is only true if the artist is an employee of the client, which isn’t exactly the norm, for the simple reason that most people’s hour to hour day jobs don’t entail making paintings. But if you make paintings for your regular employer, then yes, the copyrights belong to him,and he can do whatever he wants with them. You are remunerated by having a full-time job with a secure wage; you don’t have to depend for your survival on royalties.
If the contract does not provide just remuneration for the labor done, then the problem is in the contract for the labor.
In the case of an artist or other creative person, it’s not a contract for labour: it’s a contract for a finished product. Hiring an artist is not like hiring a secretary or a delivery boy.
 
That still does not address access by people who can not afford whatever cost the art gallery decides to charge.
If they can’t afford the buck fifty for a postcard, then how are they going to afford a camera to steal the image with? 🤷
 
If they can’t afford the buck fifty for a postcard, then how are they going to afford a camera to steal the image with?
First, how are they stealing it if it is still there?

Second, the poor people are not necessarily the ones obtaining the image. A relief worker could take a picture of it and send the image via email to other relief workers who could show the image to poor people.
 
This is only true if the artist is an employee of the client, which isn’t exactly the norm, for the simple reason that most people’s hour to hour day jobs don’t entail making paintings. But if you make paintings for your regular employer, then yes, the copyrights belong to him,and he can do whatever he wants with them. You are remunerated by having a full-time job with a secure wage; you don’t have to depend for your survival on royalties.
A contract employee is still an employee. Whether the terms of the contract are for hourly pay vary from contract to contract, and is part of what needs to be considered when determining whether the remuneration in the contract is just.
 
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