Moral Dilemma - Contracepting

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Big picture moral theology, what do we think as Catholics about black and white rules when we read the life of Jesus and how He constantly challenged the Pharisees? He’s God obviously. He can do whatever He wants. But I think about how He says the Sabbath was made for us, not us for the Sabbath. He was always showing compassion for others even outside of the Jewish customary norm. For example, the adulterer (Who would have been stoned typically) or the apostles not always washing or the disciples eating in the fields on the Sabbath. So can we as Catholics, and I’m not referring to my situation necessarily, get too caught up in the rules and lose sight of the “weightier matters of the law”? I know Gods will for us is not to sin but sometimes I think we get too caught up in the rules and forgot about people. Jesus was all about people.
 
So are you going to contracept? Is that what you came here to tell us?

It seems you are convincing yourself you are being virtuous, because your wife is forcing you.

You wont see me judging you, my brother. I am no Saint. But please dont try to convince us, or yourself that you are being just to contracept. You are being bullied.
 
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Well, if your wife is absolutely not interested in talking to a priest, then perhaps you should get some spiritual counseling yourself. Your posts pretty much sound like, “Everybody else is committing mortal sin so why can’t we do it too.” That’s a dangerous attitude to have. You also don’t know for sure what “everybody else” is doing in their private bedroom.

There are a lot of behaviors the Church deems sinful that we might see as making some part of our relationship lives or our sex lives easier or more pleasant. That doesn’t mean we’re allowed to go commit the sin. Sometimes it’s hard to do what God wants. Sometimes people need to make sacrifices.
tal3210 said:
Big picture moral theology, what do we think as Catholics about black and white rules when we read the life of Jesus and how He constantly challenged the Pharisees?
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You keep framing this as some big moral theology issue because you’re not allowed to do something you want to do.
It’s not convincing. This has nothing to do with being “pharisaical” and everything to do with the fact that you’re having a conflict with your wife and you desperately want to just be “allowed” to go sin so you can get out of the conflict.

I’m going to step off this thread now because I basically agee with Ammi. I am no saint either, but I never went around trying to find a moral theology justification for the stuff I did or asking other Catholics to give me the green light. And if a spouse is trying to make you sin, that’s when you man up and just say NO. Good luck.
 
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tal3210 said:
we have done it in our marriage
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tal3210 said:
We have done nfp before too and she hated it.
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What method? Have you explored other methods?

I will tell you, there is one method that I would have HATED as well.
tal3210 said:
He constantly challenged the Pharisees
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Because the Pharisees that Jesus criticized were hypocrites. It would have been like me encouraging people to embrace the Church’s teachings on marriage while I had an IUD and encouraged my brother to get a vasectomy.
 
TheLittleLady said:
Because the Pharisees that Jesus criticized were hypocrites. It would have been like me encouraging people to embrace the Church’s teachings on marriage while I had an IUD and encouraged my brother to get a vasectomy.
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I agree, but maybe you shouldnt apply the term “encourage” here. Hypocrisy is not wrong because of encouraging something they are weak at (or fail themselves) because they would not reject other’s encouragement, but rather judging (excommunicate, cast out, divorce) others while guilty of the same fault.
 
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Poster. Why are you more concerned with driving a wedge between you and your wife and not concerned with driving a wedge between you and your Creator?
 
It’s a balancing act. It’s very obvious he’s not trying to drive a wedge between himself and his creator, if that were the case he likely wouldn’t be here in the first place. The wrath of a wife, while insignificant in the big scheme of things, can be quite a force to be reckoned with in the now. Trying to keep everyone happy and do right by everyone can be very difficult, especially when doing right by one will be displeasing to the other.
 
Wrong, Tal3210. We may not contracept…period. It really is black and white. If one knowingly and with full consent uses artificial contraceptives before, during, or after sex, it is a grave sin. We need to know our faith, live it, and not make excuses and pretend that our own situation is the exception to a moral precept.
 
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tal3210 said:
But we can’t be so rigid with the application of teachings in the church that we become like the pharisees. Right?
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Rigidity is not the problem. The rules that God gives us are not just dry prohibitions, they are meant to teach us about Him and about what He intends for us. The problem with the pharisees was not that they uncompromisingly enforced the law, but that they separated the law from God and uncompromisingly enforced what was left.

Though it might seem more merciful, separating the Church’s teachings from the rules and then compromising on what is left is actually another way of falling into the same trap. It doesn’t matter much whether you are hard line or conciliatory once you’ve removed God from the equation.
 
tal3210 said:
I know that we need to seek local counsel and I plan to, but I’m also curious if others have ran into a situation similar to ours and what their priests might have said.
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I’ve only had the discussion with a priest once. He couldn’t obviously support contraception, but after his declaration that contraception would be against the Catholic faith’s teachings, I offered a small argument as to why it might be prudent at that time to practice it (all morality and faith aside) and in response… he grew quiet, and chose to say nothing; Nodded a couple times, and then we went on to a new topic.

I felt as though he saw a point was made… and he never said a word after I spoke. We had some silence, his small head nods a couple times, and then… new topic.

Having said that, I know a large percentage of Catholics who practice conception. Four or five kids seems to be the point where the Catholics I know personally say feel their family needs to be complete. Usually this involves a vasectomy on the man’s part… but one had her tubes tied during the C-section of her last child). Vasectomies win out over birth control pills - I think because they are not young, newly weds with no children. These are couples in their mid to late 30’s (36-38) who are truly ‘done’ having children with 3, 4, 5… 6 or 8, and opt for a vasectomy… even though some of them are strong Catholics and love their Catholic faith.
 
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CoffeeCatholic said:
I felt as though he saw a point was made… and he never said a word after I spoke. We had some silence, his small head nods a couple times, and then… new topic.
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Maybe he just felt your mind was made up and didn’t feel like having a pointless discussion. Why did you go to see him at all?
 
Could be. Why do you want to know why I was having a conversation with him? LOL. I have lots of conversations with a lot of people.
 
Oh, sorry, first I didn’t mean for you to answer, and second, I thought it was a serious discussion you had made an appointment for.
 
What if your “argument” did make sense to him? What if you “converted” to contraception and he advised others? Would you be culpable for all that sin as well?
 
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Annie said:
Oh, sorry, first I didn’t mean for you to answer, and second, I thought it was a serious discussion you had made an appointment for.
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LOL… you didn’t mean for me to answer? Okay…? Ha ha.
 
Mmmm… you’re really far off the mark here. LOL. It wasn’t an argument. Not at all. Just a conversation. It was a “hmmm…” His nodding and pondering and quiet was more of a thought that you would have to think about and pray about… kind of.

And again… your answer is so far off the mark that it would actually be a whole new conversation. Like, apples and oranges. 🙂
 
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