Moral dilemma; please help!

[javelin]

Hi Everyone,

Thank you for the prayers – they’re working, somewhat.

I talked with Jean about it last night for a bit, after she asked where I was at. When I told her I had yet to find an oral contraceptive that was not abotive, she said that she also didn’t want to do anything that may be abortive, and really didn’t want to add any more chemicals to her body anyways. That was all good news! :clapping: That left us with abstinence, barrier methods of birth control, or sterilization.

Unfortunately, she seems to be leaning towards the latter, considering we have a healthy family and we’ve both often said (even before all this) that adoption was an option. I reiterated that I would be willing to abstain, which she said would be fine for a bit especially since her desire has waned recently. I also reiterated that I don’t think this is the time to make any permanent decision. While she respects that, she really believes that we are going to have to (“everyone has to” in her words) decide when enough is enough, and choose sterilization anyways. So why not now (or soon)?

The other obstacle is that everyone else in her life (including both our parents) are telling her she needs to “do what’s best for you” and contracept, regardless of what the Church says. I am really the only one resisting, so please keep praying for our strength and the wisdom to make the right decision in the midst of this storm.

Peace,
javelin

 

[Rascal]

javelin:

If that claim were true, it may just push her to a permanent solution – sterilization. I certainly don’t want to go there, but in her current mindset it is a possibility. It would at least handle the “contraception isn’t 100% effective” argument pretty well, and wouldn’t require her to add more chemicals to her body.

Please realize that “sterilization” is also NOT 100% effective. I have a feeling your wife will be worse off if she became pregnant using contraceptives or “sterilization”. Those are very surprising pregnancies and are very difficult for families or couples to handle. At least with NFP you have an idea that you are close to ovulation and could become pregnant, depending on how you apply the rules. I was just with a group of a few friends and we could count about 5 surprise pregnancies from couples who had tubal ligations. And not many couples will admit that.

To be sure you never become pregnant you only have three options: abstinance, male castration, female castration. The latter two I doubt a docter will ever do.

As for the arguments about abstinance, I can’t believe the God expects us to be in bed 24 hours a day for the rest of our lives after marrige in the attempt to procreate as fast as possible. Just think logically, most of us are abstaining all the time! It’s natural. There is not a single soul that has not abstained. Everyone here posting is abstaining (presumably). Does that make posting at catholic.com sinful? Of coures not.

Now to enter marriage with the expectation to never consumate is equally illogical. Why get married if you don’t plan to share in the sacrament of marriage? When and where that happens is up to the couple.

 

[Rascal]

javelin:

The other obstacle is that everyone else in her life (including both our parents) are telling her she needs to “do what’s best for you” and contracept, regardless of what the Church says. I am really the only one resisting, so please keep praying for our strength and the wisdom to make the right decision in the midst of this storm.

Well, you have to ask Why? Why is contracepting/sterilization best for her? That does not “guarantee” no more pregnancies, so that can’t be the reason. For her health? Think of all the side effects contraceptives/sterilization can cause. They are pretty serious and could make the situation even worse. Post tubal-ligation syndrome occurs in approximately 33% of women. With that in mind, see if your famliy/friends are really educated about the issue and truly understand the consequences.

You truly love your wife and helping her from jumping to the first easy answer is wonderful. Careful consideration of all the facts along with prayer should help guide you to a fruitful decision.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Rascal:

As for the arguments about abstinance, I can’t believe the God expects us to be in bed 24 hours a day for the rest of our lives after marrige in the attempt to procreate as fast as possible. Just think logically, most of us are abstaining all the time! It’s natural. There is not a single soul that has not abstained. Everyone here posting is abstaining (presumably). Does that make posting at catholic.com sinful? Of coures not.

Dear Rascal,

Abstinence is quantitative. Paul says, “for a time.” Even bunny rabbits have to stop to sleep and eat!

Alan

 

[javelin]

Rascal:

Post tubal-ligation syndrome occurs in approximately 33% of women.

I know there are potential serious side-effects for women. For her sake, I would do it in her place and be sterilized if we came to decide that sterilization was what needed to be done.

I don’t know of any serious side-effect to a vasectomy, though I will say I don’t know much about them at all. One of the articles bear06 showed me talked about vasectomies leading to the “development of sperm antibodies”, but it didn’t say why that was bad.

javelin

 

[felra]

javelin:

Hi Everyone,

Thank you for the prayers – they’re working, somewhat.

That left us with abstinence, barrier methods of birth control, or sterilization.

Unfortunately, she seems to be leaning towards the latter…I also reiterated that I don’t think this is the time to make any permanent decision. While she respects that, she really believes that we are going to have to (“everyone has to” in her words) decide when enough is enough, and choose sterilization anyways. So why not now (or soon)?

The other obstacle is that everyone else in her life (including both our parents) are telling her she needs to “do what’s best for you” and contracept, regardless of what the Church says. I am really the only one resisting, so please keep praying for our strength and the wisdom to make the right decision in the midst of this storm.

Peace,
javelin

I can very much relate to your situation. Following the birth of our 3rd child, my’s wife medical doctor strongly recommended no further pregnancies due to the potential for serious health risks to my wife and the baby. He recommended sterilization procedure during the scheduled c-section. Literally every “good” Catholic family member and married friend that my consulted agreed/supported use of contraception or sterilization as totally reasonable.

We also consulted 2 diocesan priest who offered the pastoral counsel of introducing some form or contraceptive technology as a reasonable solution given the medical gravity of our situation. My wife does not trust NFP as it having “failed” in limiting future pregnacy following the birth of our second child.

Initially, I was caste as the sole hold out on standing with what the Church taught regarding prohibitions against contraception/sterilization. People were actually quite rude and derogatory in their characterizations of me. The pressure to give in to doing what was deemed “reasonable” was great.

I have since persisted in prayer, fasting for my wife and I to be united in desiring and doing what is pleasing to God in the area of our marital union. Not at all easy. Not at all pleasant. But I have since developed a circle of supportive Catholic family and friends and a faithful priest. I see it as a process. I affirm myself that I am only responsible for my own actions, while trying to give empathy, support, validation to my wife’s concerns and fears. The good news is that in the 6months since the birth of our last child, there has been some thaw in the impasse in our mariage on this issue. God is faithful to those who are faithful to Him and persist in standing for and doing what is right.

I’ll pray for you. You faith encourages me likewise.

Felra

 

[javelin]

Felra,

Thank you for sharing your story; it is encouraging.

May I be so bold as to ask what you are doing right now? NFP (what form?), complete abstinence, or trusting in the natural inhibitors while breastfeeding? Feel free to PM me if you would rather that than post.

I will keep you in my prayers as well.

javelin

 

[Princess_Abby]

Felra,

Thank you very much for clarifying your position. To be clear as to my own personal feelings, I, too, cannot imagine submitting to my spouse if he were to impose any form of contraception whatsoever. (Christopher West does clarify that any spouse who imposes contraception on the other, is, in fact, being abusive and the other spouse is not required to submit to that). Thank you for helping me see that point.

However…Christopher West also points out that there is no sin in choosing to continue intimacy with one’s spouse, even if they insist on contracepting. I’m quoting from the Good News About Sex & Marriage pg 129, “In the meantime, don’t cooperate in the sin of your husband by directly assisting in the contraceptive behavior. For example, don’t take the pill or insert a diaphram for his sake. If your husband knows where you stand and still withdraws during intercourse, or even forces the use of a condom, then he alone is responsible for the contraceptive behavior.”

I’m simply pointing out to Javelin that his will and intent can be different than his wife’s if he so chooses.

Abby

 

[pittsburghjeff]

AlanFromWichita:

There is one question still open, though, and I don’t think your explanation addresses it. If contraceptive sex does not fulfill a husband’s obligation, then how can NFP or abstinence not be a sin?

Alan

Alan,

I guess the moral distinction between contraception and NFP is more based on natural law reasoning than an explicit biblical reference.

To truly understand, you have to look at God’s design. God attached pleasure to things that are good for human beings and the human race. One of those things he attached pleasure to is sexual intercourse. Why? For two reasons - he wants us to procreate and he wants couples to feel united so they stay together for the sake of strong families.

Another example, by the way, is eating. We have to eat to survive, so God attached pleasure to eating (unless we over-eat).

As you know, when we contracept, we are thanking God for the pleasure attached to sex, but using the pleasure in the way we want to rather than the way he designed it. We reduce sex to a mere pursuit of intimancy and pleasure and shut God’s life-giving design out of the act.

Remember God created non-fertile days for women. He built non-fertile sex into his plan. And when someone using NFP abstains from sex on the few fertile days of a woman’s cycle, sure they are rejecting the fertility on those days, but they are also rejecting the pleasure attached to the act on those days. They arent misusing sex - they just aren’t using sex at all.

The best analogy I have heard is that comparing NFP to conatrcaepting is like comparing dieting to bulemia. In Bulemia, you accept the pleasure attached to eating but you reject the nutrition. In dieting, you simple limit how much or what types of food you eat. One is disordered, the other, if done in moderation, is not.

Now, does NFP violate the verse you cited in Paul about not depriving the other spouse, except by mutual consent for prayer? I think that you are reading that verse too literally. Remember, some have used that verse to justify spousal rape. I am not suggesting that you are taking it that far. But if you take it literally it would mean that spouses have a moral duty to have sex with the other whenever or wherever, whether one spouse wants it or not, or even if both spouses don’t want it, unless they are taking a break from sex to engage in prayer. I don’t think Paul meant that. I think he was simply telling them to engage in the marital act because sex is good for marriages.

Besides, as you point out, Paul lists a reason why you should not abstain. I hardly think that a couple on NFP abstaining from sex a few days out of the month would be enough to cause one of them to engage in some other kind of lust or temptation from the devil.

.

 

[Rascal]

AlanFromWichita:

Dear Rascal,

Abstinence is quantitative. Paul says, “for a time.” Even bunny rabbits have to stop to sleep and eat!

Alan

Please elaborate. 1 hours is okay, but nor 5 hours? “for a time” is fairly open. My point was not necessarily theological as it is it’s how God made us.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Rascal:

Please elaborate. 1 hours is okay, but nor 5 hours? “for a time” is fairly open. My point was not necessarily theological as it is it’s how God made us.

Dear Rascal,

That’s a very good question. Perhaps I was being flippant, but I didn’t disagree with your point that technically, I’m abstaining right now or my WPM typing speed would be seriously impaired.

I agree that “for a time” is pretty wide open, and probably means something between 1 hour and forever. It makes sense that when giving such a vague teaching, he would provide some guidelines or we would not know how to follow it. That is why, I believe, he added the rationale, “to be free for prayer, but then return to one another, so that Satan may not tempt you through your lack of self-control.”

This says to me that the actual amount of time should be left up to each one of us, according to Paul’s guidelines. In my case, then, I believe the time should be governed based on the degree to which Satan tempts me. Many months may not be a problem now, whereas when I was first married, after 2 days I started having trouble at work keeping my eyes to myself amidst all the “scenery.”

The degree to which Satan tempts each one of us must vary, because Paul said that even getting married in the first place depends on your propensity for lust. So I suggest there is no absolute answer to your question because it can vary by individual, and over time – otherwise Paul would have been more specific. Maybe three weeks is normally OK for someone one time but the next time around the same person may be tempted after one week. I don’t know about women, but for guys I don’t think that is rare at all. I doubt Satan respects my calendar, so I have to use my own judgment as to the exact time when it comes to heeding Paul’s teaching.

Does my position betray a lack of self-control? Yes, it does. If it weren’t for that in the first place, Paul would have preferred I didn’t get married at all!

Somebody please reread 1 cor 7:1-7 again and tell me why I’m wrong. usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians7.htm

Alan

 

[bear06]

javelin:

I know there are potential serious side-effects for women. For her sake, I would do it in her place and be sterilized if we came to decide that sterilization was what needed to be done.

javelin

Got to jump in here. I know at least one family who went on to have 6 kids after his vasectomy. I don’t know a lot of people who walk around talking about this though. It might be helpful to throw out that question on this loop for some additional insights although you might find a much lower percentage of people having them on this loop.

 

[bear06]

Hi all-

I’ll try not to barrage you with too many posts today!

First, Javelin, to your question of why you can take a drug or a procedure to treat a disease that will limit fertility…I actually know the answer to this one! You are not trying to mess with your God given fertility when you do this. You are trying to cure a diseased part of the body not by directly causing infertility. Infertility is a side effect of a cure, not a cure in itself.

As far as NFP and necessity…You can only use NFP for grave reasons. Mental illness, physical illness (hayfever probably wouldn’t be grave enough!) would fall under these categories. I believe spacing is also acceptable for both of these reasons. A lot of people are under the assumption that it’s OK to use NFP for whatever reason. This is wrong and clearly spelled out in more than one document from the Church. If used because we don’t want more than x kids, it DOES equate to Catholic birth control.

Once again, these all may seem to be little differences that don’t amount to a lot in our reasoning. Thankfully, this is why we haven’t been put in charge of the Church!

As far as nursing goes, this is not full proof but a good NFP plan can be used to get through the nursing time too. I know people who have been using NFP for years for mental and physical reasons who have never had it not work even during irregular times. You might look into Creighton for a better plan. You’d still need to abstain until you got the cycles and signs down.

Can I ask a few questions here because I always think that some good stuff gets missed when the conversation runs long?

Javelin, have you started researching drugs that are OK to take when you are pregnant, like all4life told you about? Have you consulted other doctors? Have you called Creighton? Have you asked your wife for a temporary use of abstinence to find and give a med a chance to work before doing something you consider immoral or permanent? When NFP failed, was it because you couldn’t abstain or because you read the NFP signs wrong?

 

[bluerose]

Here’s my “for what it’s worth”:

Three years ago, my brother-in-law’s wife was diagnosed with Primary Pulmonary Hypertenstion. For those unfamiliar with it, it is a disease that is ultimately fatal, with a prognosis of (usually) 5 to 10 years.

She was put on two drugs, Flolan and Tracleer. These drugs were essential; without them, she would die a lot faster than with them. The hope was mainly to keep her alive until research discovered a cure for this disease.

The downside (or even downer side, to be honest) is that besides the fact that the drugs would cause horrendous birth defects (mental and physical) in any unborn child (if they survived at all), my BIL’s wife’s condition was such that she would probably not even survive a pregnancy, let alone childbirth. Therefore, not only did the doctors advise ABC for my SIL, but they even hinted that HE might want to get a vasectomy.

They both said, “No.”

They said they would abstain. For how long? However long it took. Mind you, she could live for another ten years. No matter, my BIL said. He would not endanger her life–physical or spiritual–to satisfy his desires. My sister-in-law told the doctor that she had three other children to live for and leave an example for. She would not endanger her life or her soul. That was it; end of discussion.

Perhaps it was an easy call to make for someone who had eternity clearly in sight. She never made the five year mark, much less the ten-year mark; she only lived eight more months. But I believe that in those eight months she and her husband were closer than most couples who have sex on a regular basis. Their intimacy transcended the physical. His unwavering strength and support during her medical crises, the way she kept up her chin and comforted her husband and prepared him and their children for life without her, and their steadfast faith in God’s holy will showed us what a marriage SHOULD be.

She was only 28 when she died, but she was a hero to all of us. I’m sure she is a saint in heaven. So I will ask her to pray for you and your wife and for all on the board who are having difficulty with the Church’s teaching.

BlueRose

 

[javelin]

bear06:

As far as NFP and necessity…You can only use NFP for grave reasons. Mental illness, physical illness (hayfever probably wouldn’t be grave enough!) would fall under these categories. I believe spacing is also acceptable for both of these reasons. A lot of people are under the assumption that it’s OK to use NFP for whatever reason. This is wrong and clearly spelled out in more than one document from the Church. If used because we don’t want more than x kids, it DOES equate to Catholic birth control.

Interesting. I had never heard this before right now, and certainly not during the NFP classes we took prior to marriage. While this appears to clear up some of the double-standard that Alan was frustrated with (“why is NFP OK for birth control but ABCs are not”), it does nothing to increase my faith in the Church’s position on family life. It almost appears like the Church wants us to have as many children as we possibly can.

So:

1. It is wrong to do anything to avoid pregnancy, except only in the most grave circumstances.
2. We must not abstain for too long, lest we open ourselves to temptation.
3. Therefore, we must have sex with our spouse whenever it is desired, which will mean as many children as possible because women especially desire sex more when they are fertile (which is one reason NFP is harder on women than men). To avoid sex when it is desired is avoiding pregnancy, and thus wrong (unless there is a grave reason) by #1 and #2. But we’re also supposed to trust that God won’t give us more than we can handle, so keep the babies coming! It doesn’t matter if I have to sell the house and can’t afford a vehicle that will fit them all because God will provide somehow, right? Oh, wait, we’re also supposed to be responsible for the care and well-being of our children, and for the choices we make. It would not be responsible for us to have more children than we can adequately care for. But wait, that’s not a grave enough reason because God will provide!

:banghead:

And there’s definitely no way I could afford day care for them all, so that would mean my wife is home, pregnant, with children going nuts all around her virtually forever, or at least until her body or mind decide they are going to fall apart. :bigyikes:

If I knew that was how it was supposed to be, I would have chosen a 15-year engagement with complete abstinence before getting married so we had fewer child-bearing years.

Yeeesh…

Trying to recover,
javelin

 

[javelin]

(Calmer now)

So, bear06, you said spacing was a “valid” reason for using NFP. What other reason would you use it for? And how long is a “space” before it becomes too long? People have Irish twins all the time and survive just fine, so spacing doesn’t seem like a valid reason at all. So NFP could never be used to essentially be finished having children? Must there always be one more “planned”? If that is the case, NFP is mis-named. It should be called NFF, Natural Family Fatalism.

(Obviously still a bit riled up)

javelin

 

[Princess_Abby]

Wow, BlueRose. That testimony brought tears to my eye.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Dear javelin,

re:

javelin:

Yeeesh…

Well, you did ask for opinions. What did you expect from a Catholic apologist web site? You didn’t expect a simple solution, did you? Too bad it sounds like there isn’t one.

I’ve learn a lot of fascinating things about the Church’s teachings, and heard a few new perspectives. When all the dust settles, I will not change from my original position that you need to decide what is right for you. Many here think it’s blasphemous to say your should form your own conscience, but if we weren’t supposed to do that, what value would the Spirit have?

Why are we given minds, and why are we asked to transform them?
Romans 12:2:

Do not conform yourselves to this age but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and pleasing and perfect.

Paul says so that you may discern what is the will of God. Why do we have to discern? If the Church hands us sufficient rule books, isn’t it just a matter of sufficient research? No, because there are precious few moral rules that can be applied “one size fits all.”

Obviously you have “grave reasons” for not wanting to conceive. What options that leaves you with are what the whole debate is about. The people who tell you about the sins you may be considering are looking out for your soul and your wife’s, but they are not the ones who will have to judge you, any more than I am. I dare not tell you it’s OK to go against what many believe the Church’s teachings applied to your situation would be, but I can find logical gaps and embedded exceptions in the teachings and can probably find a way to justify almost any point of view.

I have some ideas about what I would do in your situation, but I’ll keep them to myself for the moment, because I’m not you and I can’t imagine how many more new ideas there might be out there for you to consider. I believe you are really struggling to do the right thing and take all this into account but you also seem like you’re nearly at overload. I’ll try to lay off this thread somewhat unless something new comes up; meanwhile I invite you to PM me if you want to discuss something more in depth than you want to out here.

Alan

 

[bear06]

(Calmer now)

So, bear06, you said spacing was a “valid” reason for using NFP. What other reason would you use it for? And how long is a “space” before it becomes too long? People have Irish twins all the time and survive just fine, so spacing doesn’t seem like a valid reason at all. So NFP could never be used to essentially be finished having children? Must there always be one more “planned”? If that is the case, NFP is mis-named. It should be called NFF, Natural Family Fatalism.

(Obviously still a bit riled up)

javelin

I just must not be explaining things coherently! Sometimes I hate e-mail!

First of all, it’s not what the Church wants us to do, it’s what God wants us to do!!! The Church’s rules are not arbitrary, they come from God! I don’t know how many times I can say this.

As far as the NFP classes…They were wrong not to tell you that you can’t use NFP for any old reason. It has to be for grave reasons and this is always best decided with some spiritual direction from a priest that will tow the line with Church teachings which are ALWAYS best for us.

You’ve got #1 right. I don’t believe that #2, Corinthians, is intpreted by the Church the same way you and Alan (not sure if I missed anyone) are interpreting it. Can you show me a document that interprets it your
way? #3 Your getting from what I believe is a wrong interpretation of # 2.

Yes we are to trust in God and he will give us the answers if we do. Do you think otherwise? You seem to be missing the point that abstinence and NFP are both answers that He has given us for grave times such as financial, medical, etc. !!! God doesn’t work with catch-22s.

As far as NFP for spacing…God doesn’t put us all in one mold. What is difficult for you may not be difficult for another. Some might be fine with Irish twins and some might be put under incredible mental stress. I can’t tell you what proper spacing for you or anyone else might be. For some, it may be to never have another but the fact still remains for all of us that we must remain open to the possiblity of life! If, while practicing NFP for a grave reason, we become pregnant, then we accept this life and look to God for the grace to handle it. These situations must be handled on a case by case and child by child basis. I know Christ makes this point somewhere (sorry, no good at pulling quotes): “What parent would give his child a stone when asked for a piece of bread?”

He has promised good to those who follow his teachings and he promised to help us stay the course when we ask for it. We want the good now. It may not be our lot. This is where we have to stop looking at the here and now and look at the eternity.

I hope you looked into the questions I asked in my previous post because the help you are looking for may very well be right there.

 

[bear06]

AlanFromWichita:

D

Why are we given minds, and why are we asked to transform them?

This one is easy. God loves us so much that he gave us free will so that we may choose to love Him. He would not force us to love him. He even did this with the angels.

We can discern many things but not the teachings of the Church. We can discern what God wants for our lives, such as our vocations, but we don’t get to decide truth. Truth is truth and this is why the Church is the final interpreter. Interpreting truth and scripture without the divine guidance the Church has is exactly what the Protestants do.