Moral Dilemma re. a wedding

[Norseman82]

Just a question: Have you ever heard the Church deny a couple? I heard of it once when the man was discovered to have a wife. But if you are going through Canan, has anyone ever heard of a priest refusing to marry a couple?

I have heard one prominent priest tell cohabitating couples that they must live separately or else he won’t perform the sacrament.

 

[Norseman82]

Shortly after she told me she was pregnant, I talked all this over with Jane in a gentle but forthright way. She’s not a terribly mature person, and her response was basically “I want what I want and I’m gonna have what I want”.

This is the statement that troubled me. Even if they were still virgins, it smacks of irresponsibility to have that attitude with such limited resources. If it were not for that, you could more easily frame the wedding in terms of a couple finally doing what’s right in the sight of God.

The other option is to express concern over “how are they ever going to make it with that attitude”.

 

[jmcrae]

I cant see how this is any of your business really.

I expect this means that you want them to grieve because of their HUGE mistake, or what?

this isn’t just a random neighbor; it’s her daughter’s Godmother, the person who is supposed to be training up her daughter in the right way to live the Catholic life - how can she do this if she is getting pregnant out of wedlock?

The question of whether to attend the wedding is tied in with the unspoken question, “Do we want this woman to be the Godmother of our daughter, any more?”

Does this mean that everyone of us on these boards who have lost our virginity and are not married we should have a small wedding later on because we somehow don’t deserve to celebrate love because we made a mistake in the past?

If you are a Godparent, then you have a very serious responsibility to set the good example of perfection in Christian life to the children who are under your spiritual care. You are the Image of Christ or the Image of Mary for that child - you must live the part.

 

[ahollars]

… But to have an elaborate “do” when they’re flat broke and have a new baby seems to me to be both inappropriate and imprudent. My interest isn’t in punishment, but in maintaining standards.

You are still doing it. This insight of yours has nothing to do with morality, and it is none of your business!

 

[IrishAm]

If they were having a small, simple wedding and reception – even after the birth of the baby – there would be no dilemma; we’d definitely go. But to have an elaborate “do” when they’re flat broke and have a new baby seems to me to be both inappropriate and imprudent. My interest isn’t in punishment, but in maintaining standards.

I think you should treat them the same way you treat everyone else who is making financial decisions you consider imprudent but are not asking you to pay for their choices. If you don’t go out to dinner at a restaurant with people who are having troubles paying off their credit cards, then don’t go to the wedding/reception. If, however, you are applying a different standard to this young couple because their sin is (a) sexual and (b) obvious, then perhaps you should reconsider your judgment.

 

[Norseman82]

You are still doing it.

With that tone of e-voice, what are you, the OP’s mother?

This insight of yours has nothing to do with morality, and it is none of your business!

Except for the fact that the fornicatrix is the confirmation sponsor of her daughter…

 

[jmcrae]

You are still doing it. This insight of yours has nothing to do with morality, and it is none of your business!

Actually, it is her business, since there is still the important question of whether to retain this woman in the role of Godmother to her daughter.

 

[shannyk]

My issue isn’t the “what”, but the “how”.

If they were having a small, simple wedding and reception – even after the birth of the baby – there would be no dilemma; we’d definitely go. But to have an elaborate “do” when they’re flat broke and have a new baby seems to me to be both inappropriate and imprudent. My interest isn’t in punishment, but in maintaining standards.

So, am I to gather then, that this isn’t about morality but about making a poor financial decision? I don’t know if I’d have ever been to anyone’s wedding if I didn’t attend based on that criteria. Most weddings these days are an overindulgent fiasco, that is not unique to this couple.

Don’t get me wrong, they do sound like they don’t have their priorities in check especially with a child in the picture, but, their decisions regarding their wedding festivities are already said and done. Not sure how you not going is going to make any relevant or appropriate statement to them or to your children.

 

[ahollars]

With that tone of e-voice, what are you, the OP’s mother?

Except for the fact that the fornicatrix is the confirmation sponsor of her daughter…

IMO, someone shouldn’t ask a question if they don’t really want to hear an answer, all because they don’t consider the notion that they might be wrong.

To your note: That isn’t what she is complaining about. It would be a different story if she were. Even if that were true, just how much time should pass before you think someone like her would be worthy of being a sponsor?

Point is, the OP read into the situation too far. It’s been at least 9 months since the transgression, right?

Yes, I am biased. I married a single mother. She and I are both CCD teachers. According to the OP’s logic, and yours too apparently, she shouldn’t be doing that because she’s not a good example to follow.

If the Church has reconciled someone, then we should too.

 

[aicirt]

I think I need to clarify here. I do not want them to “grieve because of their HUGE mistake” nor am I trying to make Jane a “target for my indignation”. Nor do I think the marriage isn’t worth celebrating.

As I said originally, "I’m certainly glad that she’s chosen to give her child life, and that she’s marrying John rather than denying her daughter a father." I’m glad they’re marrying in the church. I’m assuming that they’ve made the situation right with God. I will pray for many blessings on their marriage and on their child.

To further clarify: had they chosen to marry before their baby was born, it wouldn’t have been a shotgun wedding, because they were already engaged. As I understand it, our parish priest encouraged them to move the wedding date up. They chose to ignore him.

My issue isn’t the “what”, but the “how”.

If they were having a small, simple wedding and reception – even after the birth of the baby – there would be no dilemma; we’d definitely go. But to have an elaborate “do” when they’re flat broke and have a new baby seems to me to be both inappropriate and imprudent. My interest isn’t in punishment, but in maintaining standards.

You can maintain the standards in your own family and I hope you do because I do understand what you are saying. However, you need to consider that this has passed the muster of their parish priest. (Note a previous post where a priest would only marry a couple who were living together in a chapel.) In your case, the priest obviously thought it a good idea to marry ASAP. But the girl didn’t want it. Why? Well, she’s not paying for the wedding so it must be her parents who gave the go ahead. I’d be surprised if John wanted the big “do”. I’m sure he and his family are trying to figure out how he is going to support his new family and would have preferred a check.

Take this as a learning experience as to what can happen and remember you might have control over your daughter’s wedding, but if you have a son, he could find himself in the same spot as John. You aren’t going to be able to forbid him to get married because the size of the wedding is the domain of the bride and her family.

I don’t know if you or another poster thought you should free the bride of being the godmother to your daughter. I honestly wouldn’t do that.

 

[adrift]

They sinned. The charitable thing to do is to assume they confess the sin and God forgave them.

Sad thing is, every one gets to know about their sin, while the rest of us get to keep our sins hush hush.

Go to the wedding and forgive this young couple. Let your daughter see you do not cast people out of your life for sinning.

This post is right on and I hope you will listen to it.

 

[mommamia]

I just don’t understand how choosing to marry within the Church’s guidelines is somehow setting a bad example

You have to do whatever it is you feel you have to do. Personally I feel you are being petty. You don’t approve of her big wedding, so what? Are you paying for it?

Honestly if it were my wedding, I would rather you not come.

And she’s not the godmother, but the sponsor. I was under the impression when my son was confirmed that who he chose as his sponsor was up to him, not me.

By your reasoning, I might as well just quit the Church all together. After all, I chose to wait until my son was born to get married. Because it was what I wanted, no other reason. I wanted a big white wedding, and not to be pregnant in my wedding photos. See, I knew I would only get married once, and I wanted it the way I wanted it. So I’m obviously just a bad example, and should go back and withdraw myself from all my godchildren, and those I have sponsored, since I don’t live up to your standards.

Seriously, this is just silly. The girl would probably be better if you just didn’t go, and ended the friendship if this is how you really feel.

 

[GraceDK]

With that tone of e-voice, what are you, the OP’s mother?

Except for the fact that the fornicatrix is the confirmation sponsor of her daughter…

The forniatrix?
And what are you?
The liar, the slanderer, the boaster, the luster?
Which label would you like to put on you when we refer to you in the future, regardless if you are now in a state of grace or not???

 

[GraceDK]

I just don’t understand how choosing to marry within the Church’s guidelines is somehow setting a bad example

You have to do whatever it is you feel you have to do. Personally I feel you are being petty. You don’t approve of her big wedding, so what? Are you paying for it?

Honestly if it were my wedding, I would rather you not come.

And she’s not the godmother, but the sponsor. I was under the impression when my son was confirmed that who he chose as his sponsor was up to him, not me.

By your reasoning, I might as well just quit the Church all together. After all, I chose to wait until my son was born to get married. Because it was what I wanted, no other reason. I wanted a big white wedding, and not to be pregnant in my wedding photos. See, I knew I would only get married once, and I wanted it the way I wanted it. So I’m obviously just a bad example, and should go back and withdraw myself from all my godchildren, and those I have sponsored, since I don’t live up to your standards.

Seriously, this is just silly. The girl would probably be better if you just didn’t go, and ended the friendship if this is how you really feel.

Please do not withdraw.
Christ came for sinners, not for the righteous.
Actually if the sinners leave there are no one left…
And like you I wouldn’t want the OP to be at my wedding.

 

[GraceDK]

**jmcrae;
this isn’t just a random neighbor; it’s her daughter’s Godmother, the person who is supposed to be training up her daughter in the right way to live the Catholic life - how can she do this if she is getting pregnant out of wedlock? The question of whether to attend the wedding is tied in with the unspoken question, “Do we want this woman to be the Godmother of our daughter, any more?” **

Good luck at finding someone who never slipped up. Are you sinless? Are you worthy to be a sponsor of anyone. Did you assume there are people who don’t sin? On these boards which are full of people who take their Catholic faith seriously you see souls that are sick, people that fall into fornication, adultery, pornography, masturbation, lustful thoughts… not to mention a whole range of other sins. If you have never sinned in the sexual area, is it because of God’s protection and grace or is it because you are strong and perseverent in your self? What makes you think that fornication is a worse sin than something you comitted?
Don’t you think it would be tough if everyone could see your past failures as a young Catholic couple??? Where is your empathy?
There is no unspoken question. We are dealing with a young woman who sinned in the past, now she is having a child and a Catholic blessed marriage and you wanna shun her. It’s people like you who once made unmarried women go to witches to have abortions. Shame on you.

If you are a Godparent, then you have a very serious responsibility to set the good example of perfection in Christian life to the children who are under your spiritual care. You are the Image of Christ or the Image of Mary for that child - you must live the part.


You always have a responsibility. First of all to be humble and loving and realise your own weakness.
Welcome to reality. No one is perfect. No one. Are you like Christ or the virgin Mary??
I cant believe you actually sit there and write those things. Has the Gospel taught you nothing? Has God never shown you your own despicable sins when you came to believe in Him???

 

[sanctamaria17]

One of my best friends is marrying in the Church next year. She just graduated college and unfortunately has not yet found a job, but she is having her big day, with her dress, reception, etc. and she’s excited about it

She is not pregnant, but has had her share of sins, the lessons learned being the reason she’s a very, very orthodox girl now (and if anyone DARE slander her or refer to her as a fornicatrix, we’ll have a little bit of a “chat” that will involve boxing gloves. That may not be the Catholic way of doing things but slander is also not the Catholic way of doing things). As for her “poor financial decision”…well…

Marriage is supposed to be a celebration. As Catholics, presuming everything is valid and sacramental, we only marry once. That’s ONE day to celebrate with ALL of your family and friends, as you join in one of the greatest mysteries of human existence. That’s ONE day you will remember FOREVER, the day you CHOSE to commit to someone else in love for the rest of your life. Because love isn’t an emotion, it’s a choice and such an enormous responsibility. That’s a huge calling and rite of passage.

Can you blame them for wanting to celebrate that? Can you blame HER for wanting this, for wanting one last chance to go all out? They will not get much chance AT ALL with a new baby…let them celebrate. Even Jesus made wine for a wedding, where the people had already had their share of intoxication…if JESUS did that, why can’t we do likewise and celebrate?

Also, even most priests will say, wait till the baby’s born. You already are under enough stress when expecting a child and coercion should not be a factor at all. And, depending on how many weddings happen in a parish, sometimes a priest can’t simply “move up”. My parish back home has thousands of families (town of fifteen-twenty thousand and over 80% Catholic), two priests, and weddings/baptisms every weekend except when not allowed by the Church (Lent/Advent? Correct me if I’m wrong). Thus, sometimes, you just have to wait.

So, even as my friend struggles to find a job in today’s economy, I will still not only attend both her gigantic wedding and all-out reception, I will rejoice, pray, dance, drink, eat, enjoy, and celebrate with my dear friend and her beloved, who is truly a good man to her and has helped her weather many storms. That’s why, when asked to sing at her wedding, the only answer I gave was a resounding YES!

 

[GraceDK]

One of my best friends is marrying…!

Halleluja!

Wonderful post there sanctamaria.
Whom the Son sets free is free indeed!

Peace

 

[aicirt]

What about the baby? Is it more important that the child be born in wedlock or the bride have a big wedding?

In this case, the couple were already planning on marrying and the priest voiced his opinion to marry them ASAP.

 

[sanctamaria17]

The sin was already committed. After that, who cares if the baby is born in wedlock when many priests advise to wait afterward?

No child is legitimate or illegitimate. As for the wedding, it’s already planned. As for the sin, it’s probably already confessed.

Geez, we all commit sin…I think we’re too hard on this young lady. Let her have her day and celebrate with her husband and child.

 

[Simon_X]

The sin was already committed. After that, who cares if the baby is born in wedlock when many priests advise to wait afterward?

No child is legitimate or illegitimate. As for the wedding, it’s already planned. As for the sin, it’s probably already confessed.

Geez, we all commit sin…I think we’re too hard on this young lady. Let her have her day and celebrate with her husband and child.

You make a lot of sense my friend…