Moral Question...

[bunnynessuk]

I have been involved in a debate regarding abortion with a non-catholic friend of mine, the question of a rape victim came up and she asked me if it would be against the church if a rape victim were to take the morning after pill - it is common place to be given this after a rape is reported as part of a rape kit. Should a catholic who is unfortunate to be in this position refuse or would it be acceptable given the circumstances??

Thanks! Jay

 

[noclevername]

Yes, regardless of how the baby was conceived, abortion is abortion. The morning after pill is a form of abortion because it takes the viable embryo and kills it.

 

[bobolink]

Check www.abort73.com for all you need in your debates and discussions! Catholic Answers also has good stuff - www.catholic.com

 

[kage_ar]

The protocol for rape victims is open to debate now, article might be of use to you:

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=7836

 

[tassitus]

Yes, regardless of how the baby was conceived, abortion is abortion. The morning after pill is a form of abortion because it takes the viable embryo and kills it.

More information along this lines can be found here:
morningafterpill.org/catholic-teaching.html

I am not familiar with the website, but the teaching looks authentic (‘Statement on the So-Called “Morning-After Pill” by the Pontifical Academy for Life, October 31, 2000’).

Someone kindly correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[tassitus]

The protocol for rape victims is open to debate now, article might be of use to you:

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=7836

I am not so sure how “open” the debate is - after reading the above link, don’t forget to also read these:
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=7837 (written in response, by Rev. Thomas J. Euteneuer, President, Human Life International) and
airmaria.com/2007/10/09/father-peter-damian-fehlner-std-ways-in-on-plan-b-in-connecticut/ (written also, I believe, in response by Father Peter Damian Fehlner, S.T.D.).

Peace all.

 

[noclevername]

More information along this lines can be found here:
morningafterpill.org/catholic-teaching.html

I am not familiar with the website, but the teaching looks authentic (‘Statement on the So-Called “Morning-After Pill” by the Pontifical Academy for Life, October 31, 2000’).

Someone kindly correct me if I’m wrong.

I’m not sure why you quoted me with that link because it said basically what i said in my first reply. The terminology was just a bit different.

The protocol for rape victims is open to debate now, article might be of use to you:

catholicculture.org/cultu…ew.cfm?id=7836

And for the record, I cannot believe the morning after pill is “under debate” for rape victims when birth control is strictly prohibited. That’s almost hypocritical. The morning after pill takes a fertilized ovum aka embryo, and prohibits it from implanting on the uterus wall. The IUD BC device does the same thing and I don’t agree with IUD either. But there is nothing wrong with birth control pills yet those are banned. They prevent egg release so no fertilization takes place but with the morning after pill, fertilization DOES take place. I just dont’ get it.

Also, I do know that rape is a horrible horrible thing. Thankfully I have never been in that situation. I was close to that situation once, my stepfather was making suggestions but thankfully my mother believed me and we moved away. But, even if a baby is created from a rape, it’s not that baby’s fault so why should it be killed? I know the mother will have to suffer for nine months and be reminded and yes that’s awful and terrible but knowing she killed a baby will make her suffer too. And she can give the baby up for adoption. There are many many families all over the place who would love to have that baby. I will have major major issues if this morning after pill becomes legal in the Catholic eyes but BC pills are still outlawed.

I know I’ll get a lot of flack for this post but it’s just the way I feel about it.

 

[tassitus]

I’m not sure why you quoted me with that link because it said basically what i said in my first reply. The terminology was just a bit different.

I quoted you with the link because (i) I agree with your response, and (ii) the link provided more detail regarding your (and my) position on this issue.

. . .I know I’ll get a lot of flack for this post but it’s just the way I feel about it.

You may get some flack, but if you do please know that it is, in my opinion, the same flack the Church is getting on this issue (so you’re in good company!).

Thanks for the open and honest response.

 

[noclevername]

Thanks Tassitus!! I appreciate all of the above.

 

[rusty20]

The way I understood the Church’s position in my Catholic Bioethics class was that the Church allows some form of ‘spermicide’ which prevents conception under the circumstance of rape. However, if conception has occured, the baby must be carried to term.

This does seem sort of problematic, but I guess the justification is that the woman did not give of her body freely and thus the ‘rules’ don’t apply to her. I think it has something to do with the act not being a real sexual act, but an act of evil. It’s a really confusing statement. It does seem ridiculously contradictory to the Church’s stance on contraception as a whole…

 

[maryjk]

The way I understood the Church’s position in my Catholic Bioethics class was that the Church allows some form of ‘spermicide’ which prevents conception under the circumstance of rape. However, if conception has occured, the baby must be carried to term.

This does seem sort of problematic, but I guess the justification is that the woman did not give of her body freely and thus the ‘rules’ don’t apply to her. I think it has something to do with the act not being a real sexual act, but an act of evil. It’s a really confusing statement. It does seem ridiculously contradictory to the Church’s stance on contraception as a whole….

The rapist sperm is considered an unjust intruder. Similar to a neighbor that breaks into your house to harm you. You don’t have to love your neighbor at that point. You can protect yourself.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

A rape victim is allowed to take measures to avoid conception. She is not permitted to end the life of a newly conceived baby.

Since there is a space of time that it takes for the sperm to reach the egg after intercourse, she is allowed to take measures for conception to not happen.

Let’s differentiate between the morning after pill, and RU-486.

The morning after pill is a high dose of birth control pills to suppress ovulation. Sometimes it could be abortifacient.

RU-486 is the abortion pill. It attacks a living embryo.

As for the argument, some say that it is possible to determine if ovulation has occurred in a rape victim or not. If ovulation has not occurred, they argue that the pill would suppress ovulation, and not allow for conception to occur.

Some others argue that ovulation cannot be predicted accurately in a rape victim, because of stress etc, that the pill should not be allowed at all, to avoid the chance of an early abortion.

 

[iluvmybabies]

Uhm ok…So let’s pretend there is this girl that got nearly beaten to death by a rapist…She’s passed out and nearly dying when someone runs into her in the back alley or wherever she was raped…

They take her to the hospital, she’s unconscience, and the doctor’s administer the morning after pill just to be safe, is this girl condemned to hell for “killing” an unborn child??

What if she’s conscious, barely making it and is able to make her own choices in some painful way. So she makes the report, barely even able to speak from the pain and abuse she just received…And she caught a disease from this terrible person…And there’s a chance she was ovulating causing her chances of being pg even faster, they don’t offer the next morning pill yet, until she’s in better condition to make that decision…She’s so traumatized she doesn’t even go outside…She quit working and has to see a psychiatrist…Before a week goes by she’s healing somewhat but still unable to even look at herself in the mirror so the doctors visit her at home, and offer her the next day morning pill, whatever it’s called, so she takes it because she’s afraid she might be pg and she can barely handle her terrible traumatizing event let alone fathom that from that near death experience and traumatizing rape she might have a child from this terrible monster when she didn’t even give him the permission, he just stole that personal, intimate moment from her in the worst possible way…

Is this wrong?

How can anyone love a child that comes from a monstrous event?

I know of a woman whom kept her child and that child was abused over and over and over…She never got married, never trusted anyone enough to do so…The child was never sexually abused but emotionally and physically, she would take out her anger and her stress and her trauma on that child. When her family decided to finally speak with her because they abandoned her…They told her to abort and she said no, not the Catholic thing to do…So they abandoned her in her worst time…They finally decided to seek her out and found out about the abuse, they told her to just let the child go, and call child services…The child was almost 13 years old…When she didn’t because she was so overwhelmed and well over the edge I don’t think she knew what she was doing…any more; her child comfronted her and she told her that she was born from a rape… This little girl told her that she now understood why she hated her so much and that she was sorry that her life was ruined because of her. The woman drank herself to sleep that night…

The next morning the little girl was gone…She visited her family and told them that she was sorry they never saw her as anything more than a monster, and that her face reminded them of the monster that destroyed her mother. She told them that she loved her mother but that she couldn’t take the abuse any more and didn’t want to continue destroying her. That she was sorry.

As far as I know that little girl disappeared…No one ever heard from her again and her mother drank herself to death…she stopped being close to GOD…

My mom knew of another woman whom went through this as well, except she was in a comma during most of the pg…Then the baby was born through emergency csection and then she got out of the comma…
When they told her she told them to take the child away from her and she never recovered…Some family adopted the baby and she always lived wondering about the child, but remembered that man’s face and she said she couldn’t deal with it…She too has been living a very lonely life…And far from GOD…

My dad’s friend’s sister went through that too…But since their family had money, they made sure she got the best treatment possible, but she kept the baby as well against her family’s wishes and they left her alone for a while, like 3 years I believe…So without their help went the counselor etc and she was starting to come back to the dark memories, and started mistreating her tot, then her family came back and helped her again and things got better, she remade her life, and even though she loves her now older child, she’s still reminded and has to seek help on a weekly basis. Her hubby helps her too and my dad said that he can tell they don’t treat the first born the same as the others…And it’s understandable because that’s a traumatizing event and even though she’s tried very hard not to treat her child differently, it’s very hard for her even after 16 years to get over it…She even turned from GOD for a long time and is barely coming around…

And I am wondering is this fair for the child and the raped victim?

My mom was telling me that if they took the pills that at least these children wouldn’t be abused and having a hard life that they too might become abusive or even think it’s ok to live like that…Never really knowing love?! I don’t know sounds pretty terrible to me…

 

[Pro-Life_Teen]

How can anyone love a child that comes from a monstrous event?

It’s a child. Her child. That the means of conception were horrific doesn’t mean the child is any less a son or daughter of God and of the mother. It may be hard and to a degree painful, but the child is still hers. If she truly cannot see herself being a good mother, she can place her child up for adoption.

The baby is the rapist’s child in the loosest sense- he came to harm and left.

if they took the pills that at least these children wouldn’t be abused and having a hard life that they too might become abusive or even think it’s ok to live like that…Never really knowing love?! I don’t know sounds pretty terrible to me…

If they took the pills, the children would be dead. It’s a similar justification to euthanasia, or how a mother kills her own born children because she thinks it would help them. And while they may be in Heaven, the Lord placed them on earth for a reason. They’ve had a hard life, but people can live through hardships and make what is bad into something good.

 

[redtech]

Uhm ok…So let’s pretend there is this girl that got nearly beaten to death by a rapist…She’s passed out and nearly dying when someone runs into her in the back alley or wherever she was raped…

They take her to the hospital, she’s unconscience, and the doctor’s administer the morning after pill just to be safe, is this girl condemned to hell for “killing” an unborn child??

What if she’s conscious, barely making it and is able to make her own choices in some painful way. So she makes the report, barely even able to speak from the pain and abuse she just received…And she caught a disease from this terrible person…And there’s a chance she was ovulating causing her chances of being pg even faster, they don’t offer the next morning pill yet, until she’s in better condition to make that decision…She’s so traumatized she doesn’t even go outside…She quit working and has to see a psychiatrist…Before a week goes by she’s healing somewhat but still unable to even look at herself in the mirror so the doctors visit her at home, and offer her the next day morning pill, whatever it’s called, so she takes it because she’s afraid she might be pg and she can barely handle her terrible traumatizing event let alone fathom that from that near death experience and traumatizing rape she might have a child from this terrible monster when she didn’t even give him the permission, he just stole that personal, intimate moment from her in the worst possible way…

Is this wrong?

How can anyone love a child that comes from a monstrous event?

I know of a woman whom kept her child and that child was abused over and over and over…She never got married, never trusted anyone enough to do so…The child was never sexually abused but emotionally and physically, she would take out her anger and her stress and her trauma on that child. When her family decided to finally speak with her because they abandoned her…They told her to abort and she said no, not the Catholic thing to do…So they abandoned her in her worst time…They finally decided to seek her out and found out about the abuse, they told her to just let the child go, and call child services…The child was almost 13 years old…When she didn’t because she was so overwhelmed and well over the edge I don’t think she knew what she was doing…any more; her child comfronted her and she told her that she was born from a rape… This little girl told her that she now understood why she hated her so much and that she was sorry that her life was ruined because of her. The woman drank herself to sleep that night…

The next morning the little girl was gone…She visited her family and told them that she was sorry they never saw her as anything more than a monster, and that her face reminded them of the monster that destroyed her mother. She told them that she loved her mother but that she couldn’t take the abuse any more and didn’t want to continue destroying her. That she was sorry.

As far as I know that little girl disappeared…No one ever heard from her again and her mother drank herself to death…she stopped being close to GOD…

My mom knew of another woman whom went through this as well, except she was in a comma during most of the pg…Then the baby was born through emergency csection and then she got out of the comma…
When they told her she told them to take the child away from her and she never recovered…Some family adopted the baby and she always lived wondering about the child, but remembered that man’s face and she said she couldn’t deal with it…She too has been living a very lonely life…And far from GOD…

My dad’s friend’s sister went through that too…But since their family had money, they made sure she got the best treatment possible, but she kept the baby as well against her family’s wishes and they left her alone for a while, like 3 years I believe…So without their help went the counselor etc and she was starting to come back to the dark memories, and started mistreating her tot, then her family came back and helped her again and things got better, she remade her life, and even though she loves her now older child, she’s still reminded and has to seek help on a weekly basis. Her hubby helps her too and my dad said that he can tell they don’t treat the first born the same as the others…And it’s understandable because that’s a traumatizing event and even though she’s tried very hard not to treat her child differently, it’s very hard for her even after 16 years to get over it…She even turned from GOD for a long time and is barely coming around…

And I am wondering is this fair for the child and the raped victim?

My mom was telling me that if they took the pills that at least these children wouldn’t be abused and having a hard life that they too might become abusive or even think it’s ok to live like that…Never really knowing love?! I don’t know sounds pretty terrible to me…

Its not the babies fault, why should an innocent life have to die? If the mother doesn’t want the child, then she should put it up for adoption, there are thousands of people trying to conceive that can’t…

 

[agapewolf]

They take her to the hospital, she’s unconscience, and the doctor’s administer the morning after pill just to be safe, is this girl condemned to hell for “killing” an unborn child??

How can anyone love a child that comes from a monstrous event?

…

First of all, she didn’t make the decision to do it in this situation, so she committed no sin.

Second of all, you may want to rephrase your seriously offensive question.

My birth mother was pschizophrenic, not married, and got pregnant with me. Her consent could certainly be called into question…

How could anyone love me you are asking? Thanks a lot.

I’m loved quite fine thank you. My birth mother couldn’t manage, even though she loved me, and gave me up for adoption. I have since met her as an adult and she still loves me, as well as my adoptive family.

I also have a friend who was conceived by a rape. And she is loved quite fine.

 

[iluvmybabies]

It’s a child. Her child. That the means of conception were horrific doesn’t mean the child is any less a son or daughter of God and of the mother. It may be hard and to a degree painful, but the child is still hers. If she truly cannot see herself being a good mother, she can place her child up for adoption.

The baby is the rapist’s child in the loosest sense- he came to harm and left.

Perhaps because we have not been in similar situations, thank GOD, some of us can’t understand how to really think about this situation, I mean if you were the one abused and you are in medication and having a hard time living a “normal” life without help, and find out you are pg from that terrible event and horrible person we really can’t say much about what goes inside that person’s mind to really talk about it… I mean I can put myself in their shoes, and think through different set of being, and see through different eyes and I know that I wouldn’t be able to happily hold a baby and then give up to adoption, nor raise a child that didn’t come from love, from your husband, and knowing that I am barely even making it through a lonely life… Just breaks my heart you know? There was a couple that got married and went to Paris for their honey moon, young couple, both very attractive. They went down to the bar, of their 5 star hotel, there were a lot of people, this man approached the couple and was talking to them, they didn’t understand him because he didn’t speak english…the bar tender did and didn’t like what the man was telling them…He grabbed the newlywed hubby and told him to take his fiance and go back to their room…The guy started laughing and was like please!! And asked why, then the bar tender told them that the guy was asking to sleep with his wife…for money… The guy was like tell him that I am not interested, it’s our honey moon!! The bartender didn’t feel right with telling the guy they were honeymooners so he told the man to go away or they were going to call the cops…

Well they went off to the dance floor and romancing etc, newly weds…they went back to the bar for a few drinks and after the newly wed drank his glass of liquor he just straight out passed out, as if there was something in his drink…The bartender told the newlywed wife to stay there near her hubby while he went and called someone from the hotel to help get him back to their room. She told him ok, but needed to go to the bathroom, she pulled some guy close and asked him to tell the bartender she went to the ladies room, he didn’t understand her so she made like sign language or something… ( I read it in some newspaper many many years ago, I think I was still a kid when I read this) SO he finally understood. The bartender came back and was like HELLO??? And the guy told him she went to the bathroom… Well in the bathroom that man was waiting for her. He brutally beat her and raped her, in all areas and with devices, very horrifying. She was a virgin too, and saving herself for her hubby. When 30 minutes passed and she was not back from the bathroom the bartender went looking for her, he found her almost bleeding to death from all areas… She needed major plastic surgery to fix her breasts and other body parts…Her husband didn’t see her the same…He couldn’t touch her and she didn’t let him touch her. Then they found out she was pg. She tried to kill herself on a daily basis and her husband left her. They stuck her in a psych ward and she had her baby there, she never accepted herself being devirginized by such a terrible man and then conceiving a child that was not her husban’s. They found her trying to cut her insides out… I think I read she finally got out of the psych ward just recently, an older woman…and she had to have her uterus taken out from the damage she caused…Her exhusband is happily married with children of his own…

If they took the pills, the children would be dead. It’s a similar justification to euthanasia, or how a mother kills her own born children because she thinks it would help them. And while they may be in Heaven, the Lord placed them on earth for a reason. They’ve had a hard life, but people can live through hardships and make what is bad into something good.

Yes you are right, but if they don’t know that there is really a child there yet, and that she was even ovulating at the time it occured, then the morning after pill isn’t really a bad thing and you aren’t really killing anything…allowing these “children” that are not to just never really be… My db’s cousin came from a rape, and she has lived a very sad life, they are always hoping she’s alive on a daily basis…And she’s an adult…

 

[iluvmybabies]

First of all, she didn’t make the decision to do it in this situation, so she committed no sin.

Second of all, you may want to rephrase your seriously offensive question.

My birth mother was pschizophrenic, not married, and got pregnant with me. Her consent could certainly be called into question…

How could anyone love me you are asking? Thanks a lot.

I’m loved quite fine thank you. My birth mother couldn’t manage, even though she loved me, and gave me up for adoption. I have since met her as an adult and she still loves me, as well as my adoptive family.

I also have a friend who was conceived by a rape. And she is loved quite fine.

I am sorry if I have offended anyone, the conversation is of a rape victim, not of any other situation…I was not speaking about anything else other than a child conceived from a traumatizing event such as a rape…Nothing else…

I think I was born from a rape of my FATHER to my MOTHER because of his alcoholic abuse…I have had a rough life and my mother never has “liked me” she loves me but not “like” me, she loves me because she had no other choice but to do so, they are Catholics and very old fashioned…I have never had any good relationship with her and most that know me from several posts know that…It hasn’t been an easy life for me, but thanks to the GRACE of GOD and because my parents forgave each other had a good relationship with my father…So I can tell you from experience I know what it feels like not to feel loved from your mother even though she was married… So I can try to understand those that are not married and have been raped and go through living trying to accept a child they did not want, and might find it hard to love…

Would I have been happy not being born…I probably would never know but I can tell you that if my mother would have been raped outside of marriage I don’t think I would have wanted to be part of this life nor world, if my life was hard even with my father changing his ways and everything, I wouldn’t want to imagine my life with my mother in a different situation…

I am grateful GOD has given me life, but I can tell you it’s been difficult in most times than normal, and I am trying to live the best way I can, and trying to make things well with GOD…

Again sorry for offending you…or anyone else…That was not my intention… I am sure there are many that are loved after a rape and have a wonderfully blessed family and life…

It was just a question to try and understand those whom can’t get over nor can find the way to do so…and how horrible it must be for their children…in either case the choice is a difficult one, either you live with the terrible trauma and try to live a normal loving life with that child, have it and let it go to another family, or not even try to deal with it and move on…

Again my sincerest apology…

 

[iluvmybabies]

Uhm ok…So let’s pretend there is this girl that got nearly beaten to death by a rapist…She’s passed out and nearly dying when someone runs into her in the back alley or wherever she was raped…

They take her to the hospital, she’s unconscience, and the doctor’s administer the morning after pill just to be safe, is this girl condemned to hell for “killing” an unborn child??

What if she’s conscious, barely making it and is able to make her own choices in some painful way. So she makes the report, barely even able to speak from the pain and abuse she just received…And she caught a disease from this terrible person…And there’s a chance she was ovulating causing her chances of being pg even faster, they don’t offer the next morning pill yet, until she’s in better condition to make that decision…She’s so traumatized she doesn’t even go outside…She quit working and has to see a psychiatrist…Before a week goes by she’s healing somewhat but still unable to even look at herself in the mirror so the doctors visit her at home, and offer her the next day morning pill, whatever it’s called, so she takes it because she’s afraid she might be pg and she can barely handle her terrible traumatizing event let alone fathom that from that near death experience and traumatizing rape she might have a child from this terrible monster when she didn’t even give him the permission, he just stole that personal, intimate moment from her in the worst possible way…

Is this wrong?

(very sorry for the remark and question I made didn’t mean to offend anyone)

I know of a woman whom kept her child and that child was abused over and over and over…She never got married, never trusted anyone enough to do so…The child was never sexually abused but emotionally and physically, she would take out her anger and her stress and her trauma on that child. When her family decided to finally speak with her because they abandoned her…They told her to abort and she said no, not the Catholic thing to do…So they abandoned her in her worst time…They finally decided to seek her out and found out about the abuse, they told her to just let the child go, and call child services…The child was almost 13 years old…When she didn’t because she was so overwhelmed and well over the edge I don’t think she knew what she was doing…any more; her child comfronted her and she told her that she was born from a rape… This little girl told her that she now understood why she hated her so much and that she was sorry that her life was ruined because of her. The woman drank herself to sleep that night…

The next morning the little girl was gone…She visited her family and told them that she was sorry they never saw her as anything more than a monster, and that her face reminded them of the monster that destroyed her mother. She told them that she loved her mother but that she couldn’t take the abuse any more and didn’t want to continue destroying her. That she was sorry.

As far as I know that little girl disappeared…No one ever heard from her again and her mother drank herself to death…she stopped being close to GOD…

My mom knew of another woman whom went through this as well, except she was in a comma during most of the pg…Then the baby was born through emergency csection and then she got out of the comma…
When they told her she told them to take the child away from her and she never recovered…Some family adopted the baby and she always lived wondering about the child, but remembered that man’s face and she said she couldn’t deal with it…She too has been living a very lonely life…And far from GOD…

My dad’s friend’s sister went through that too…But since their family had money, they made sure she got the best treatment possible, but she kept the baby as well against her family’s wishes and they left her alone for a while, like 3 years I believe…So without their help went the counselor etc and she was starting to come back to the dark memories, and started mistreating her tot, then her family came back and helped her again and things got better, she remade her life, and even though she loves her now older child, she’s still reminded and has to seek help on a weekly basis. Her hubby helps her too and my dad said that he can tell they don’t treat the first born the same as the others…And it’s understandable because that’s a traumatizing event and even though she’s tried very hard not to treat her child differently, it’s very hard for her even after 16 years to get over it…She even turned from GOD for a long time and is barely coming around…

And I am wondering is this fair for the child and the raped victim?

My mom was telling me that if they took the pills that at least these children wouldn’t be abused and having a hard life that they too might become abusive or even think it’s ok to live like that…Never really knowing love?! I don’t know sounds pretty terrible to me…

 

[iluvmybabies]

Its not the babies fault, why should an innocent life have to die? If the mother doesn’t want the child, then she should put it up for adoption, there are thousands of people trying to conceive that can’t…

Yes you are correct it is not the child’s fault, and it’s very terrible to think someone could do such things, but it wasn’t the woman’s fault either…

And pg is a very special time in a woman’s life to hold a child that wasn’t born from her husband or love for that matter might be difficult for her to handle…

I mean there are stories of many surrogate mothers out there that don’t give up the child after words because of the whole mother love and end up keeping their child even though it is not theirs, so it would be a natural thing for a raped victim to keep the child as well, as well as not want it at all to go through that emotional strain…

All I am saying is I don’t think it’s fair for either one, but of course the choice still falls upon the rape victim and I just don’t think it’s fair that they are doomed to hell for their choices… Just my opinion…

I am sure there are plenty of children whom came from rape but are dearly loved and well taken care of and have great lives with their mothers…And even more blessings for them!