Moral Question

[tee_eff_em]

Tee, why tread the line of grave sin if it is avoidable?

Why ask me a question regarding a line I have not advocated treading?

Arguing semantics does not lead to answers and a deeper understanding of our faith, which is what we all should be trying to achieve.
…
It seems you are looking for loopholes in the Church’s laws to make the Church seem more accepting of these opposing views.

If that is how it seems to you, then I urge you to re-read what I have written. I have not been arguing semantics, I have been arguing facts. Several posters here (beginning with the OP) have stated that *Catholics are to have nothing to do with the Freemasons *-- This is something I do not know to be true, something which I suspect is false.

But I also admit that I do not know everything, so I ask *“Where is this taught?” *Thus far, no one has been able to support this assertion.

Maintaining an unsupportable position serves no one, least of all someone who may already be hostile to the Church.

The Church does not cater to it’s enemies.

No, it does not. But the Church does love her enemies and prays for her persecutors and seeks the salvation of all men.

How do you propose to evangelize the Freemason, how to lead him to turn from his errors and to follow the true faith, if you will *have nothing to do with *him? Or do you simply give him up as lost?

I ask you, and all the others reading this, to take this more seriously. For the love of our Holy Church.

I do take this seriously. And I hope that you, and all the others reading this, do so as well. For the love of our fellow men, who are children of God.

tee

 

[Riseof_Rome]

Why ask me a question regarding a line I have not advocated treading?

If that is how it seems to you, then I urge you to re-read what I have written. I have not been arguing semantics, I have been arguing facts. Several posters here (beginning with the OP) have stated that *Catholics are to have nothing to do with the Freemasons *-- This is something I do not know to be true, something which I suspect is false.

But I also admit that I do not know everything, so I ask *“Where is this taught?” *Thus far, no one has been able to support this assertion.

Maintaining an unsupportable position serves no one, least of all someone who may already be hostile to the Church.

No, it does not. But the Church does love her enemies and prays for her persecutors and seeks the salvation of all men.

How do you propose to evangelize the Freemason, how to lead him to turn from his errors and to follow the true faith, if you will *have nothing to do with *him? Or do you simply give him up as lost?

I do take this seriously. And I hope that you, and all the others reading this, do so as well. For the love of our fellow men, who are children of God.

tee

As much as I want to, I will not turn this into a personal debate.

To answer your question about treading the line of grave sin, you specifically acknowledged that Catholics are not to condone or participate in freemasonry. Your response to this was “Well it doesn’t say you should have NOTHING to do with them”. You are treading the line with this response. This is like a child who keeps touching his sibling and is told to stop so he continues to find other ways to annoy them. Thats just a metaphor, don’t take that offensively.

There are plenty of other ways to evangelize with our enemies then to buddy up with them. First and foremost is always prayer. And anything after that has to be carried out with the mindset “I will stand my ground as a Catholic and obey the Church without compromising”.

No offense to the poster, but going to a golf outing with Shriners doesn’t sound like evangelization to me. It seems like another attempt by Satan himself to turn the Catholic attitude of freemasonry into luke-warmness. Which, as most people know, is the foothold for all grave sin.

 

[Palm_Tree]

I am a 4th degree Knight and know that Catholics are to have nothing to do with the Freemasons. I found out that our council is supporting a golf tournament being put on by the Shriners. I told our Faithful Navigator that I thought that this was wrong. I told him that the Shriners are Freemasons. He seemed unaware of this fact. He said that we (the council) have been supporting this golf tournament every year. Was I wrong in bringing up with him? I know the Shriners do good work, I used to be one. In fact if it weren’t for the Shriners , my niece would be in a wheelchair by now. Good works aside, the Shriners are Freemasons. There’s a saying: Not all Masons are Shriners, but all Shriners are Masons. Any opinions and/or advice is greatly appreciated. I know there thousands of threads dealing with the Masons, but I couldn’t find one to cover this.

IMO, there is nothing wrong with supporting the Shriners via a golf tournament. It’s just a charity event, right?

 

[Palm_Tree]

As much as I want to, I will not turn this into a personal debate.

To answer your question about treading the line of grave sin, you specifically acknowledged that Catholics are not to condone or participate in freemasonry. Your response to this was “Well it doesn’t say you should have NOTHING to do with them”. You are treading the line with this response. This is like a child who keeps touching his sibling and is told to stop so he continues to find other ways to annoy them. Thats just a metaphor, don’t take that offensively.

There are plenty of other ways to evangelize with our enemies then to buddy up with them. First and foremost is always prayer. And anything after that has to be carried out with the mindset “I will stand my ground as a Catholic and obey the Church without compromising”.

No offense to the poster, but going to a golf outing with Shriners doesn’t sound like evangelization to me. It seems like another attempt by Satan himself to turn the Catholic attitude of freemasonry into luke-warmness. Which, as most people know, is the foothold for all grave sin.

Shriners raise money for hospitals that give medical care to the poor. If the money from the golf tournament is going to support their hospitals for poor people, what’s wrong with that?

 

[bigbear62040]

Shriners raise money for hospitals that give medical care to the poor. If the money from the golf tournament is going to support their hospitals for poor people, what’s wrong with that?

Please don’t get me wrong, the Shriners do** EXCELLENT** work with crippled and burned children. As I said before, my niece would be in a wheelchair right now if it weren’t for the Shriners. That’s why I joined them. Unfortunately, it’s what you have to be (a Mason) in order to be a Shriner that is wrong. If I could be a Shriner without being a Mason I would consider rejoining. My family owes them that much. While going through RCIA I was taught that it was against church law for a catholic to be a Mason. I didn’t understand why at the time. My instructor at RCIA explained it to me and told me to ask certain questions and look for certain signs the next time I went to my masonic meetings. I did as he asked and I was surprised at the reactions I got. I asked questions like "Do the higher degrees have anything to with Satan?’ and “Would it be alright if my black friend joins?” For the first question I got, “I can’t tell you that!” and as for the second question, I got from several members, “If a black man joins this lodge, I’ll quit!!” They used racial slurs I won’t use on here. It’s sad really, that an organization that does so much good is filled with people like that. No wonder the Church banned them.

After joining the Knights of Columbus I am much happier now. They cover so many great causes. Especially the Special Olympics, of which my sister is a part of. They are a great bunch of guys of all races, colors, and creeds. In fact, I got my 4th degree last year and I am working to be in the color guard. Oops, almost forgot the Ladies Auxiliary, sorry ladies. I even convinced my mother to join the Auxiliary and she’s not catholic (YET).

 

[tee_eff_em]

you specifically acknowledged that Catholics are not to condone or participate in freemasonry.

tee

 

[Palm_Tree]

Please don’t get me wrong, the Shriners do** EXCELLENT** work with crippled and burned children. As I said before, my niece would be in a wheelchair right now if it weren’t for the Shriners. That’s why I joined them. Unfortunately, it’s what you have to be (a Mason) in order to be a Shriner that is wrong. If I could be a Shriner without being a Mason I would consider rejoining. My family owes them that much. While going through RCIA I was taught that it was against church law for a catholic to be a Mason. I didn’t understand why at the time. My instructor at RCIA explained it to me and told me to ask certain questions and look for certain signs the next time I went to my masonic meetings. I did as he asked and I was surprised at the reactions I got. I asked questions like "Do the higher degrees have anything to with Satan?’ and “Would it be alright if my black friend joins?” For the first question I got, “I can’t tell you that!” and as for the second question, I got from several members, “If a black man joins this lodge, I’ll quit!!” They used racial slurs I won’t use on here. It’s sad really, that an organization that does so much good is filled with people like that. No wonder the Church banned them.

After joining the Knights of Columbus I am much happier now. They cover so many great causes. Especially the Special Olympics, of which my sister is a part of. They are a great bunch of guys of all races, colors, and creeds. In fact, I got my 4th degree last year and I am working to be in the color guard. Oops, almost forgot the Ladies Auxiliary, sorry ladies. I even convinced my mother to join the Auxiliary and she’s not catholic (YET).

Yeah, my aunt would be in a wheel-chair right now if it wasn’t for the Shriner’s Hospitals. She born severely crippled, and underwent years and years of surgery by American surgeons employed at a Shriner Hospital 100% paid for by the Shriners, just so she could walk (she still has very noticable limp, but at least she can walk, and she got married, and gets to live a much better life had she not been confined to a wheelchair her whole life). Think how much that would have cost. At least hundreds of thousands of dollars.

So yeah, I’m all for giving money to the Shriners Hospitals to help crippled children. And I’m also all for helping Shriners out at their fundraising events, such as golf tournaments, to help them raise money to pay for the doctors, nurses, etc that are giving free medical care to crippled children at Shriner Hospitals.

As for your talk about “all races, colors, and creeds,” that’s another great thing about Shriner Hospitals. The only requirement is that you be under the age of 18 (the hospitals are Children’s Hospitals, the official name is the “Shriners Hospitals for Children”), and that you have one of the conditions that they specialize in treating (being crippled, disfigured, burned). Other than that, here is no requirement for religion, race, or relationship to a Shriner or Freemason. There is never any charge for treatment at a Shriners Hospital. They fund 20 hospitals, 1 in Mexico City, 1 in Montreal, and the rest in the United States (Los Angeles, Chicago, Boston, Houston, Minnesota, Philadelphia, Cincinnati, St Louis, Tampa, etc, etc).

As for becoming a Shriner, I wouldn’t recommend that. Just giving money to their hospitals and helping them raise money for their hospitals.

As for the Knights of Columbus, my grandfather was a K of C. I recently went to a big dinner hosted by my area’s K of C to honor all the priests and other relgious in our area for their service. I got to meet a lot of K of C and they were all really cool and wanted me to join, even gave me an application. However, I’m in the men’s club at my parish, which is an informal group that raises money for our parish and does work for our parish. We meet once a month, and our priests come to all our meetings. We are the biggest fundraiser for our parish. Our main fundraisers are the fish fries during Lent, the annual Parish Fair, and the annual golf tournament. We also volunteer our time for specific needs, such as fixing stuff around the parish and the parish school. So those are some ideas for your K of C. What kind of work does your K of C do?

 

[Riseof_Rome]

Shriners raise money for hospitals that give medical care to the poor. If the money from the golf tournament is going to support their hospitals for poor people, what’s wrong with that?

Can the devil not do good works if it means he gathers more followers? Just because they help poor people doesn’t mean they are good…

 

[Palm_Tree]

Can the devil not do good works if it means he gathers more followers? Just because they help poor people doesn’t mean they are good…

Did you read the rest of the thread? Did you care to comment on my last post? It said:

*Yeah, my aunt would be in a wheel-chair right now if it wasn’t for the Shriner’s Hospitals. She [was] born severely crippled, and underwent years and years of surgery by American surgeons employed at a Shriner Hospital 100% paid for by the Shriners, just so she could walk (she still has very noticable limp, but at least she can walk, and she got married, and gets to live a much better life had she not been confined to a wheelchair her whole life). Think how much that would have cost. At least hundreds of thousands of dollars.

So yeah, I’m all for giving money to the Shriners Hospitals to help crippled children. And I’m also all for helping Shriners out at their fundraising events, such as golf tournaments, to help them raise money to pay for the doctors, nurses, etc that are giving free medical care to crippled children at Shriner Hospitals.

As for your talk about “all races, colors, and creeds,” that’s another great thing about Shriner Hospitals. The only requirement is that you be under the age of 18 (the hospitals are Children’s Hospitals, the official name is the “Shriners Hospitals for Children”), and that you have one of the conditions that they specialize in treating (being crippled, disfigured, burned). Other than that, here is no requirement for religion, race, or relationship to a Shriner or Freemason. There is never any charge for treatment at a Shriners Hospital. They fund 20 hospitals, 1 in Mexico City, 1 in Montreal, and the rest in the United States (Los Angeles, Chicago, Boston, Houston, Minnesota, Philadelphia, Cincinnati, St Louis, Tampa, etc, etc).

As for becoming a Shriner, I wouldn’t recommend that. Just giving money to their hospitals and helping them raise money for their hospitals.

As for the Knights of Columbus, my grandfather was a K of C. I recently went to a big dinner hosted by my area’s K of C to honor all the priests and other religious in our area for their service. I got to meet a lot of K of C and they were all really cool and wanted me to join, even gave me an application. However, I’m in the men’s club at my parish, which is an informal group that raises money for our parish and does work for our parish. We meet once a month, and our priests come to all our meetings. We are the biggest fundraiser for our parish. Our main fundraisers are the fish fries during Lent, the annual Parish Fair, and the annual golf tournament. We also volunteer our time for specific needs, such as fixing stuff around the parish and the parish school. So those are some ideas for your K of C. What kind of work does your K of C do?
*

 

[bigbear62040]

What kind of work does your K of C do?

We are really big with Special Olympics. We have the boy and cub scouts. We have bingo 6 nights a week. We just recently started getting involved with our local police force. Our K of C’s are a great bunch of guys.

 

[Palm_Tree]

We are really big with Special Olympics. We have the boy and cub scouts. We have bingo 6 nights a week. We just recently started getting involved with our local police force. Our K of C’s are a great bunch of guys.

Yeah, the Special Olympics is awesome. I need to get back into that. Back when I was young, my father used to take my siblings and I to volunteer at the Special Olympics (his company was one of the sponsors).

As for the scouts, yeah, that’s a good one. The scouts taught me how to tie a tie (something I was still doing for others even in college). I have many great memories with the scouts, as do all my brothers. Do you still do the pine-wood derby? My dad would get really into that. The cars he made were so awesome, that I have saved them to this day. We always went to regional and won all the awards for the best-designed car.

As for bingo, I’m unfamilar with that. Wow. 6 nights a week!?!?!?!? I know there is an connection between Catholics and bingo, but I’ve never seen it first-hand. Is it a fundraiser where you make money off the event, or do you just provide the event for free as a way for people to have fun giving their money to each other?

As for the police force, what are the plans with that?

 

[Riseof_Rome]

Did you read the rest of the thread? Did you care to comment on my last post? It said:

*Yeah, my aunt would be in a wheel-chair right now if it wasn’t for the Shriner’s Hospitals. She [was] born severely crippled, and underwent years and years of surgery by American surgeons employed at a Shriner Hospital 100% paid for by the Shriners, just so she could walk (she still has very noticable limp, but at least she can walk, and she got married, and gets to live a much better life had she not been confined to a wheelchair her whole life). Think how much that would have cost. At least hundreds of thousands of dollars.

So yeah, I’m all for giving money to the Shriners Hospitals to help crippled children. And I’m also all for helping Shriners out at their fundraising events, such as golf tournaments, to help them raise money to pay for the doctors, nurses, etc that are giving free medical care to crippled children at Shriner Hospitals.

As for your talk about “all races, colors, and creeds,” that’s another great thing about Shriner Hospitals. The only requirement is that you be under the age of 18 (the hospitals are Children’s Hospitals, the official name is the “Shriners Hospitals for Children”), and that you have one of the conditions that they specialize in treating (being crippled, disfigured, burned). Other than that, here is no requirement for religion, race, or relationship to a Shriner or Freemason. There is never any charge for treatment at a Shriners Hospital. They fund 20 hospitals, 1 in Mexico City, 1 in Montreal, and the rest in the United States (Los Angeles, Chicago, Boston, Houston, Minnesota, Philadelphia, Cincinnati, St Louis, Tampa, etc, etc).

As for becoming a Shriner, I wouldn’t recommend that. Just giving money to their hospitals and helping them raise money for their hospitals.

As for the Knights of Columbus, my grandfather was a K of C. I recently went to a big dinner hosted by my area’s K of C to honor all the priests and other religious in our area for their service. I got to meet a lot of K of C and they were all really cool and wanted me to join, even gave me an application. However, I’m in the men’s club at my parish, which is an informal group that raises money for our parish and does work for our parish. We meet once a month, and our priests come to all our meetings. We are the biggest fundraiser for our parish. Our main fundraisers are the fish fries during Lent, the annual Parish Fair, and the annual golf tournament. We also volunteer our time for specific needs, such as fixing stuff around the parish and the parish school. So those are some ideas for your K of C. What kind of work does your K of C do?
*

I did read this, and I am very happy for your aunt. It does not disprove my point, though, that the devil can still do works we perceive as good if it means people become indifferent, or accepting, to the people who follow him. If the Shriners really are masons, which I am almost certain they are, then if it is at all possible we must avoid them. A golf outing is not a life and death situation, therefore it is possible to sit this one out. Again, I am not saying your aunts fortunes were evil. I am saying, however, that if it is what they have done for your aunt that causes you to perceive them as good people, then the adversary wins.

 

[Palm_Tree]

I did read this, and I am very happy for your aunt. It does not disprove my point, though, that the devil can still do works we perceive as good if it means people become indifferent, or accepting, to the people who follow him. If the Shriners really are masons, which I am almost certain they are, then if it is at all possible we must avoid them. A golf outing is not a life and death situation, therefore it is possible to sit this one out. Again, I am not saying your aunts fortunes were evil. I am saying, however, that if it is what they have done for your aunt that causes you to perceive them as good people, then the adversary wins.

No, your willingness to jump to conclusions and judge people you have never met as “untouchables” is the work of the devil. You give into that, and the devil wins.

As for myself, I don’t have an opinion of individual Shriners. I’ve never met one. I’ve never met a Freemason. But I’m all for the Shriner Hospitals that help crippled children for free that are paid for by money raised by Shriners at things like golf tournaments.

 

[bigbear62040]

As for bingo, I’m unfamilar with that. Wow. 6 nights a week!?!?!?!? I know there is an connection between Catholics and bingo, but I’ve never seen it first-hand. Is it a fundraiser where you make money off the event, or do you just provide the event for free as a way for people to have fun giving their money to each other?

As for the police force, what are the plans with that?

Oh yes, there’s a big connection between the two, but only in the states where bingo is legal. Some states, Tennessee for example, have even made bingo illegal. There’s even an old joke about Catholics and bingo, it goes like this:

Two guys went to a baseball game where the Pope was asked to throw out the first pitch. The Pope threw the ball right into the catcher’s mitt and the crowd cheered. One of the two guys yelled out “PLAY BALL!” His buddy elbowed him and said “You idiot, that’s the Pope down there.” He said, “Oh, I’m sorry. BINGO!” Lol.

But, back to bingo. It’s definitely a fund raiser. We (my council) only have it Friday and Sunday nights. The other four nights (Monday thru Thursday) are held by my parish, the police department, and our high school soccer and baseball teams. We leave Saturdays open for special events. It a great money maker. Each organization donates a little something for the use of the hall.

As for the police, they use our hall for bingo and we get a major discount on security for all the bingo sessions. Plus, if they need a room for a meeting or benefit, I don’t believe we charge them for it.

 

[Riseof_Rome]

No, your willingness to jump to conclusions and judge people you have never met as “untouchables” is the work of the devil. You give into that, and the devil wins.

As for myself, I don’t have an opinion of individual Shriners. I’ve never met one. I’ve never met a Freemason. But I’m all for the Shriner Hospitals that help crippled children for free that are paid for by money raised by Shriners at things like golf tournaments.

My friend, you just contradicted yourself in the same sentence.

“No, your willingness to jump to conclusions and judge people you have never met as “untouchables” is the work of the devil.”

You have never met me, therefore you have no idea that I have never met the Shriners. So you can take your own advice. I know a very good deal about Shriners ,Freemasons, cults, etc. I know enough to perceive they are intrinsically evil. And yes, I have met them. In fact I have family members who were heavily involved once. There is such a thing as a wolf in sheep’s clothing.