Moral Relativism

[larkin31]

His holy books and worship predate yours, they also teach a message of love. Hinduism doesn’t condemn him for what he is. How could you convince someone that you are telling “the truth.”

The OT God does his “convincing” mostly via killing and destruction of non-believers and promotion of followers.

 

[PRmerger]

His holy books and worship predate yours, they also teach a message of love.

Well, now you are using your paradigm to judge the Hindu’s. Why should teaching “a message of love” be a good thing? The only reason you see that as valuable is because you come from the paradigm of Catholicism, which professed that to you.

Hinduism doesn’t condemn him for what he is. How could you convince someone that you are telling “the truth.”

Again, by using reason, logic and natural law.

Any person who is grounded in a sinful lifestyle and is “eating out of the dumpster”, so to speak, is *not *happy. When the truth is presented to him who seeks, he will run to the Light as fast as he can!

 

[jonfawkes]

Well, now you are using your paradigm to judge the Hindu’s. Why should teaching “a message of love” be a good thing? The only reason you see that as valuable is because you come from the paradigm of Catholicism, which professed that to you.

Again, by using reason, logic and natural law.

Any person who is grounded in a sinful lifestyle and is “eating out of the dumpster”, so to speak, is *not *happy. When the truth is presented to him who seeks, he will run to the Light as fast as he can!

No it’s Hinduism’s paradigm as well, Vishnu / Krishna as avatars (incarnations) of the god head, They have everything that Christianity has just more of it. Many vs one Incarnation of God. Most religions teach love and compassion.

So you think Hindus are eating out of the dumpster spiritually or gay people or both?

How are you so sure they are not happy? Seems presumptuous and condescending on your part.

 

[davidv]

No it’s Hinduism’s paradigm as well, Vishnu / Krishna as avatars (incarnations) of the god head, They have everything that Christianity has just more of it. Many vs one Incarnation of God. Most religions teach love and compassion.

So you think Hindus are eating out of the dumpster spiritually or gay people or both?

I believe you didn’t understand the other poster correctly. They didn’t say what you say they did.

How are you so sure they are not happy? Seems presumptuous and condescending on your part.

Those in sin are not as happy as they would like to be, else they would not continue in their sin hoping for the happiness that the particular sin promises. Nothing presumptuous or condescending about it.

 

[PRmerger]

No it’s Hinduism’s paradigm as well, Vishnu / Krishna as avatars (incarnations) of the god head, They have everything that Christianity has just more of it.

Really. Do they have an avatar that sacrificed his life out of love, that paid a debt he didn’t owe for a people who owed a debt they couldn’t pay?

Many vs one Incarnation of God. Most religions teach love and compassion.

You are speaking of ethics, not religion, jon. Religion is more than that.

As CS Lewis said, “The road to the promised land runs past Mount Sinai.”

So you think Hindus are eating out of the dumpster spiritually or gay people or both?

I think their souls are restless untl they rest in God.

And the gods that the Hindus “rest” in are not God.

As for gay people, they are indeed eating out of the metaphorical dumpster. They are looking for love in all the wrong places. Yep, just like the song.

How are you so sure they are not happy? Seems presumptuous and condescending on your part.

Well, they may think they’re happy 'cause they’ve got food, (rotten though it is), but they just don’t know that there’s a lavish banquet prepared just for them. That’s our job, to show them to the Table.

 

[inocente]

By this statement you answer that you understand that the Koran is **not **theopneustos.

And you know this because the CC has discerned this for you.

:banghead:You may like to think about putting words in my mouth, I never said anything like that. To a Muslim the Quran definitely is inspired, not just inspired but the actual word of God. Don’t know, never read much of it. What the CC has to do with it one way or the other is beyond me.

[SIGN1]By no other authority do you know this. [/SIGN1]

Ah. I didn’t see any mention of peaceful, good lives in your story. Calculus and matrix multiplication, though, were referenced, curiously. :coffeeread:

But, regardless, I have never professed that non-Christians can’t lead peaceful, good lives. In fact, some of the most peaceful, godly people I know aren’t Christian.

So why, you may ask, believe in Christianity?

Because it’s true, of course!

That’s really the only reason to believe something, isn’t it?

One can believe in Santa and that can make someone peaceful and good, but if it’s not true, it’s really not that good of an idea to believe in him, eh?

 

[jonfawkes]

Really. Do they have an avatar that sacrificed his life out of love, that paid a debt he didn’t owe for a people who owed a debt they couldn’t pay?

You are speaking of ethics, not religion, jon. Religion is more than that.

As CS Lewis said, “The road to the promised land runs past Mount Sinai.”

I think their souls are restless untl they rest in God.

And the gods that the Hindus “rest” in are not God.

As for gay people, they are indeed eating out of the metaphorical dumpster. They are looking for love in all the wrong places. Yep, just like the song.

Well, they may think they’re happy 'cause they’ve got food, (rotten though it is), but they just don’t know that there’s a lavish banquet prepared just for them. That’s our job, to show them to the Table.

Well they are different religions and approach the relationship with the godhead in different ways although Krishna and Christ share a lot of similarities. Sure, Religion is much more than that. I was pointing out some similarities, often ones that are used to promote Christianity. How do you know they aren’t resting in God.

Hindu worship stems from recognition of the supreme godhead Brahman and the personal soul atman and trying to achieve a relationship between the two. There are many avatars of the supreme Brahman but just one godhead. They even have a main trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. Each have their own avatars, Krishna being one of Vishnu’s avatars.

Homosexuality isn’t condemned in Hindu holy books. It is actually in the Kama Sutra. There are some with in Hinduism that do condemn it but there is no specific ban on it. You can be a homosexual and a good Hindu. So again from our hypothetical Hindu’s perspective he is resting with God. He’s not sinning.

It’s a beautiful religion with a long and rich history. So far you are just stating your personal preference. “I think chocolate is way better than vanilla, you might think vanilla is good until you try chocolate” Some people do like vanilla.

 

[inocente]

By this statement you answer that you understand that the Koran is **not **theopneustos.

And you know this because the CC has discerned this for you.

:banghead: Please try not to put words in my mouth. To a Muslim the Quran definitely is inspired. Personally I don’t know, never read much of it. What the RCC has to do with it is beyond me.

*So why, you may ask, believe in Christianity?

Because it’s true, of course!

That’s really the only reason to believe something, isn’t it?*

If we grew up in another part of the world, we might well have a different vision of God. While I like the music of Abbess Hildegard of Bingen (a ye olde worlde Christian) it’s doubtful even she and I share the same vision of God. In any event, belief in Christ through dry logic rather than faith seems pointless.

And what is it that you use to determine whether it’s really God’s Words or not?

Some of the Gnostic writings bring new insights to the canonical gospels. If “God’s Words” was intended as “personally written by God” rather than “inspired by God” then you lost me.

And each and every time you quote Scripture you are giving tacit approval to the CC’s authority.

I think you’ll find that copyright of the NIV is owned by Biblica Inc., and they don’t have any authority over me either.

*Oh, it’s 'cause I am certain that you do not believed that some folks who believe that sacrificing their baby to the god Moloch is just fine and dandy with you.

And I am certain that you do not believe that a man can marry anyone he chooses, regardless of her age, and whether he’s already* married.

And I am guessing that you do not believe that the folks that profess that Jesus died for only white folks is just fine and dandy with you. (And if you do believe this, we are done.)

And I am certain that you don’t believe that folks who offer ritual sexual sacrifices on their altars is fine and dandy with you.

And you’re not ok with folks who profess that women are for childbearing only.

You could have said the same of probably everyone on CAF . I asked you to explain how you can be so certain of what I believe and all you’ve told me is a very small subset of the many things I don’t believe .

Given the stickies “It is never acceptable to question the sincerity of an individual’s beliefs” and “It is never acceptable to assume or say you know what another person thinks or needs” I suggest we leave it there.

So, you really don’t profess “different strokes for different folks” do you?

:banghead: Yes.

 

[inocente]

But you’d also agree that revelation has something to do with it?

Yes, I think revelation is an ace reason to take any given direction. We each find truths that mean much to us. The issue is when two groups think they see different truths, do they go to war, come to an accord, or let anarchy rule. At one end of the spectrum is fierce absolutism, at the other bland relativism, but in the middle is surely where God wants us to go. Don’t know what to call the middle way though.

Do you think man, on his own, is somehow guaranteed to fumble his way to a moral world where God’s will is done?

This touches on Benedict’s point about aggressive secularism. A society where no one believes in God (or only believes in a minimalist version) is open to at least two problems: manipulation (tabloid morals) and lack of long-term direction (for example, the broken state of civil union and divorce). I’m not sure secular humanism can replace religion as I can’t see how it substitutes any sense of Other except with self. Perhaps that’s what Twitter is for .

 

[inocente]

It is important to remember that God does not look at the human person as a collective group. God looks at us as individuals with individual struggles. It is the honest search for God and the willingness to live in submission to Him through our actions that puts us on the path of salvation promised by a crucified Savior.

Agreed, and for me one of the most profound lines in scripture is tucked away at the end of John:

When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?” – John 21:21 NIV

Well Lord, what about that Hindu? Is it for me or Vishnu to tell her where to follow? Is it for her or God to tell me? Pride or humility, that’s the question.

 

[PRmerger]

I was pointing out some similarities, often ones that are used to promote Christianity.

Indeed, there are similarities.

How do you know they aren’t resting in God.

To the degree that they are resting in Truth, they *are *resting in God.

A gay Hindu, however, isn’t resting in God if he pursues that sinful lifestyle.

Homosexuality isn’t condemned in Hindu holy books.

They can deny an absolute truth, but it still exists. Just like they can say, “We condemn gravity” but when they walk out a 2nd story window, gravity’s truth is going to bring them down. :sad_yes:

So again from our hypothetical Hindu’s perspective he is resting with God. He’s not sinning.

He is most certainly NOT resting in God.

I’m pretty sure that there’s some folks out there who are doing some grotesquely sinful activities right now that don’t think they’re sinning.

But the fact remains, it’s wrong for them to do said activity.

 

[PRmerger]

When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?” – John 21:21 NIV

Well, here we go, inocente. You have just submitted to the authority of the Catholic Church in telling you that these words are part of Sacred Scripture!

You would not know that were it not for the CC discerning such.

 

[PRmerger]

:banghead: Please try not to put words in my mouth. To a Muslim the Quran definitely is inspired.

But you don’t believe it is. How? Because it’s been discerned for you, by an outside authority, that it isn’t inspired.

In any event, belief in Christ through dry logic rather than faith seems pointless.

Indeed. As Pascal said: 2 errors–to exclude reason; 2 exclude all but reason.

Some of the Gnostic writings bring new insights to the canonical gospels. If “God’s Words” was intended as “personally written by God” rather than “inspired by God” then you lost me.

You didn’t answer the question, inocente: And what is it that you use to determine whether it’s really God’s Words or not?

Based on my prior experience with this type of dialogue, I suspect I’m going to continue asking this question and you’re going to evade and provide non-sequitors and, in the end, will not be able to answer the question (without begging the question.)

I think you’ll find that copyright of the NIV is owned by Biblica Inc., and they don’t have any authority over me either.

No, they certainly don’t!

But when you quote from Scripture you are submitting to someone else’s discernment that it is Scripture.

I’m just sayin’

You could have said the same of probably everyone on CAF .

Yes, indeed I could. Because no moral person believes “different strokes for different folks.”

I asked you to explain how you can be so certain of what I believe and all you’ve told me is a very small subset of the many things I don’t believe .

Yep. I showed you that you don’t actually believe that canard “different strokes…”

 

[inocente]

Well, here we go, inocente. You have just submitted to the authority of the Catholic Church in telling you that these words are part of Sacred Scripture!

You would not know that were it not for the CC discerning such.

Because I once walked into a book store, found and bought a book by Douglas Adams, and now quote from it “42”, his estate has authority over me?

Please cite a Church document saying it has authority over me for buying an NIV.

Would you explain what this has to do with the OP?

But you don’t believe it is. How? Because it’s been discerned for you, by an outside authority, that it isn’t inspired.

Try reading what I wrote. For the third time I haven’t read much of the Quran and don’t know.

Please cite any document where it has been officially decided the Quran isn’t inspired. On the off-chance you manage to find one, perhaps you could explain how it managed to convince me personally when I’ve never even seen such a document, and (for the last time) don’t know if it’s inspired.

It’s quite possible it is inspired though, given the number of people who are inspired by it, and of course:

The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting. - vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

Oooooooh oooh, what’s it say about Hindus?
*
Religions, however, that are bound up with an advanced culture have struggled to answer the same questions by means of more refined concepts and a more developed language. Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust. … The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men.*

You didn’t answer the question, inocente: And what is it that you use to determine whether it’s really God’s Words or not?

The Spirit. And for me like I said before it still isn’t “God’s Words”.

Yep. I showed you that you don’t actually believe that canard “different strokes…”

It is never acceptable to question the sincerity of an individual’s beliefs. - forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2801887&postcount=3

 

[larkin31]

I believe you didn’t understand the other poster correctly. They didn’t say what you say they did.

Those in sin are not as happy as they would like to be, else they would not continue in their sin hoping for the happiness that the particular sin promises. Nothing presumptuous or condescending about it.

Huh? What logic is this? Why would the pleasure of sinning end? Why would one stop sinning once it made them happy? Isn’t the opposite likely true: that the happiness and pleasure found in sin are what perpetuate the practice? After all, isn’t that what is true of religion, also?

 

[PRmerger]

Because I once walked into a book store, found and bought a book by Douglas Adams, and now quote from it “42”, his estate has authority over me?

Of course not.

You just acknowledge, each and every time you quote Scripture, that another authority discerned that it was God’s Word.

In other words, you would not know, of your own authority, that the verse, “All generations shall call me blessed!” is inspired, were it not for the Catholic Church.

Please cite a Church document saying it has authority over me for buying an NIV.

I don’t need to do that because that’s not my point. The Church does not have authority over you for buying a NIV.

You do, however, submit to the Church’s authority each and every time you cite Scripture, as you did here:[SIGN]inocente said: He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” – Luke 10:27 NIV[/SIGN]

Would you explain what this has to do with the OP?

It’s the natural progression of the dialogue.

Try reading what I wrote. For the third time I haven’t read much of the Quran and don’t know.

You don’t know?

“Men are managers of the affairs of women because Allah has made the one superior to the other.”–Sura 4:34

 

[jonfawkes]

To the degree that they are resting in Truth, they *are *resting in God.

A gay Hindu, however, isn’t resting in God if he pursues that sinful lifestyle.

They can deny an absolute truth, but it still exists. Just like they can say, “We condemn gravity” but when they walk out a 2nd story window, gravity’s truth is going to bring them down. :sad_yes:

He is most certainly NOT resting in God.

I’m pretty sure that there’s some folks out there who are doing some grotesquely sinful activities right now that don’t think they’re sinning.

But the fact remains, it’s wrong for them to do said activity.

The effects of gravity can be observed and duplicated. What are the effects of homosexuality? What are the effects of Hinduism?

Why wouldn’t he be resting in God. The Catholic Church doesn’t condemn Hinduism. It is seen as a valid path to God.

Since we are all sinners, what makes his sin so egregious that it denies him communion with God?

You seem to be blinded by personal biases.

 

[PRmerger]

Please cite any document where it has been officially decided the Quran isn’t inspired.

It’s a negative charism, inocente, that’s been given to the Catholic Church.

So the fact that it’s not in your Bible means that it was discerned by the CC that it is not theopneustos.

On the off-chance you manage to find one, perhaps you could explain how it managed to convince me personally when I’ve never even seen such a document, and (for the last time) don’t know if it’s inspired.

Then perhaps you can quote from the Koran in arguments here with Christians and present it as inspired text?

That will be an interesting dialogue to be sure!

It’s quite possible it is inspired though, given the number of people who are inspired by it, and of course:

When I have used "inspired’ regarding religious texts, please understand it to mean “theopneustos”, not “inspiring” or “meaningful”, or “it really speaks to my heart”.

The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting. - vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

Oooooooh oooh, what’s it say about Hindus?
*
Religions, however, that are bound up with an advanced culture have struggled to answer the same questions by means of more refined concepts and a more developed language. Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust. … The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men.*

The Spirit.

Like I predicted, this is begging the question.

Not to mention, it’s creating a god in your own image, isn’t it?

And for me like I said before it still isn’t “God’s Words”.

Not sure what you mean here. Could you elaborate please?

It is never acceptable to question the sincerity of an individual’s beliefs. - forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2801887&postcount=3

I apologize for questioning your sincerity.

But I’ve shown you that you don’t actually believe the different strokes thing. You only believe “different-strokes-for-things-that-I-believe-as-well for different folks. If I don’t believe it’s ok, then it’s not different strokes for different folks.”

 

[PRmerger]

The effects of gravity can be observed and duplicated. What are the effects of homosexuality?

A life of chaos and despair.

What are the effects of Hinduism?

To the degree that they are in union with the Truths of God’s revelation, a life of joy and peace.

Why wouldn’t he be resting in God. The Catholic Church doesn’t condemn Hinduism. It is seen as a valid path to God.

It most definitely is not seen as a valid path to God, jon.

“Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.”

Yet!

"The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”

To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood." CCC 843-845

You seem to be blinded by personal biases.

jon, we are having a dialogue on the CAFs. That’s the point of being on a forum. We present our arguments; you present yours, “personal biases” notwithstanding.

 

[jonfawkes]

A life of chaos and despair.

What is your proof of this. I know quite a few homosexuals that are prosperous and successful in all parts of their lives.

It most definitely is not seen as a valid path to God, jon.

Seems contrary to this

Religions, however, that are bound up with an advanced culture have struggled to answer the same questions by means of more refined concepts and a more developed language. Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust. … The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men.

It’s a negative charism, inocente, that’s been given to the Catholic Church.

So the fact that it’s not in your Bible means that it was discerned by the CC that it is not theopneustos.

Charism is only valid inside the church. By saying that the Koran is not part of the Church doesn’t invalidate it as God inspired. It just means it’s not part of the Church.