Moral sin is based on one's opinion

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There are 3 criteria for mortal sin. I have seen them posted here before, but one of them is that you have to know what you are doing is wrong. So, I have seen people talking about masturbation and not going to church as mortal sins…well doesn’t that depend on your opinion of the action then? I don’t think masturbation is bad and I don’t think that not going to mass is bad either. Thus, they cannot be mortal sins for me. I do not think I am doing anything wrong by masturbating or missing mass. “Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.” So basically, if you do something, and don’t think it is bad, then in the end, it is not a mortal sin. Right?

 

[thistle]

There are 3 criteria for mortal sin. I have seen them posted here before, but one of them is that you have to know what you are doing is wrong. So, I have seen people talking about masturbation and not going to church as mortal sins…well doesn’t that depend on your opinion of the action then? I don’t think masturbation is bad and I don’t think that not going to mass is bad either. Thus, they cannot be mortal sins for me. I do not think I am doing anything wrong by masturbating or missing mass. “Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.” So basically, if you do something, and don’t think it is bad, then in the end, it is not a mortal sin. Right?

Its not based on your opinion.

If you know the Church teaches something is a grave sin then if you do it you are committing a mortal sin. “Full knowledge” does not mean you have to understand (although it would make sense for a person to try to understand). You simply have to be aware the Church teaches it is a grave sin.

 

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Its not based on your opinion.

If you know the Church teaches something is a grave sin then if you do it you are committing a mortal sin. “Full knowledge” does not mean you have to understand (although it would make sense for a person to try to understand). You simply have to be aware the Church teaches it is a grave sin.

But if you don’t accept the Church’s teachings, then you don’t believe it is a sin.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

But if you don’t accept the Church’s teachings, then you don’t believe it is a sin.

Sure, you cannot believe x is a sin but that doesn’t change the objective meaning that x is a sin.

 

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Sure, you cannot believe x is a sin but that doesn’t change the objective meaning that x is a sin.

I agree…but it makes it impossible to be a mortal sin if you do not recognize it as wrong.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I agree…but it makes it impossible to be a mortal sin if you do not recognize it as wrong.

Can you clarify what you mean “recognize it as wrong?”

Thistle is saying that one need to have an awareness of the Church’s teaching of it:

If you know the Church teaches something is a grave sin then if you do it you are committing a mortal sin. “Full knowledge” does not mean you have to understand (although it would make sense for a person to try to understand). You simply have to be aware the Church teaches it is a grave sin.

Are you trying to argue the objective meaning (i.e. masturbation is a sin) based on subjective culpability?

You might be interested in this thread, which covers the definition of mortal sin.

 

[Rolltide]

I agree…but it makes it impossible to be a mortal sin if you do not recognize it as wrong.

Actually… Catholicism teaches it’s impossible to commit a mortal sin if you don’t understand that it’s wrong, rather than if you don’t recognize it as wrong. The first means that you never actually realized that the Catholic Church taught it was wrong, because you didn’t know the teaching. You’re claiming that although you KNOW the teaching, you don’t believe it to be wrong because of your own conscience. The conscience card argument has been thrown around a lot since Vatican II, but its GREATLY misunderstood. A Catholic MUST ALWAYS follow a properly formed conscience in any situation. However, a properly formed conscience is going to be one that was trained according to orthodox Catholic teaching, so it’s not a “get out of jail free” card on tough issues, because you should already understand those issues from a Catholic viewpoint.

 

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Actually… Catholicism teaches it’s impossible to commit a mortal sin if you don’t understand that it’s wrong, rather than if you don’t recognize it as wrong. The first means that you never actually realized that the Catholic Church taught it was wrong, because you didn’t know the teaching. You’re claiming that although you KNOW the teaching, you don’t believe it to be wrong because of your own conscience. The conscience card argument has been thrown around a lot since Vatican II, but its GREATLY misunderstood. A Catholic MUST ALWAYS follow a properly formed conscience in any situation. However, a properly formed conscience is going to be one that was trained according to orthodox Catholic teaching, so it’s not a “get out of jail free” card on tough issues, because you should already understand those issues from a Catholic viewpoint.

So what if it is a non catholic that masturbates, and they either don’t know it is wrong, or don’t recognize the Catholic law as the end all be all of morals.

 

[mullenpm]

Rolltide, your explanation is straight forward and wonderful but I have my doubts that it will impress the OP. My impression is that OP is not Catholic.:knight1:

 

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Rolltide, your explanation is straight forward and wonderful but I have my doubts that it will impress the OP. My impression is that OP is not Catholic.:knight1:

I was baptized and confirmed, but I do not go to church…nor do I take everything the church believes as truth.

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

It is still a sin, only your culpability is lessened. The Catholic Church bases this on the object of the action in question based on the nature of the act. “And God saw that it was good” means that things are good in and of themselves, their nature. The sin is in their improper use, such as your sexual facility or your act of worship.

God wills to be worshiped a certain way as indicated by His Church, His bride, authorized to speak for Him as seen in “You are Peter, and upon this rock…And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven and whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven”, thus binding the faithful to worship obediently.

Being a protestant doesn’t let you off the hook as the fullness of the faith is Catholic. “Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you” indicates a level of realism that cannot be taken symbolically. The further a church separates from this authority, the less this, and many other passages such as those on marriage, murder (abortion), sexual dignity (homosexuality) and purity (abstinence), have meaning.

Improper use of the sexual function is wrong based on the object, life and procreation, and the use, selfishness in masturbation or lust in the use of another person for sexual pleasure devoid of the proper gift of self and the proper “end” of conjugal union, life. Contraceptives are wrong for this reason, of sex not being open to life and the “use” of the person for only gratification.

All are free to accept this or to dissent from it, until the Lord of the Vineyard comes back: “What therefore will the lord of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy those husbandmen; and will give the vineyard to others”. The choice is yours.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

So what if it is a non catholic that masturbates, and they either don’t know it is wrong, or don’t recognize the Catholic law as the end all be all of morals.

Can you answer this question:

Are you trying to argue the objective meaning (i.e. masturbation is a sin) based on subjective culpability?

What prompted you to ask this question? Are you masturbating with full consent and full knowledge?

 

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Can you answer this question:

What prompted you to ask this question? Are you masturbating with full consent and full knowledge?

lol, I do masturbate. I just don’t think it is wrong. It is barely touched on in the Bible, and I don’t know why the church hates it so much. I would definitely say that making fun of someone, even if you don’t mean to, or making someone feel uncomfortable, or saying something mean to one of my family members is much worse than masturbating. Masturbating doesn’t hurt anyone (except me if I do it too hard ).

But what caused me to ask this question really is that it is interesting that it is only a mortal sin if you know it is a sin. Thus, if you are ignorant of what is sin and what is not, then you cannot commit a mortal sin.

Also, on a side note, I am so happy that I do not see sin as strictly as many of you. I get anxious and I think I have slight OCD. Once I get started on a topic, I can’t get it out of my head. If I thought that masturbation, or pre marital sex, or some of the other things I believe are harmless but the Catholic church does not permit were so horrible, it would be all I could think about. I have no doubt that my life would be unhappy because of this. I thank God that I have a more liberal version of morality than the Catholic church (basically follow the golden rule) because if not, I would drive myself mad.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

lol, I do masturbate. I just don’t think it is wrong. It is barely touched on in the Bible, and I don’t know why the church hates it so much. I would definitely say that making fun of someone, even if you don’t mean to, or making someone feel uncomfortable, or saying something mean to one of my family members is much worse than masturbating. Masturbating doesn’t hurt anyone (except me if I do it too hard ).

But what caused me to ask this question really is that it is interesting that it is only a mortal sin if you know it is a sin. Thus, if you are ignorant of what is sin and what is not, then you cannot commit a mortal sin.

Actually, all three conditions must be met for a mortal sin. If you don’t consent to it (forced), or are ignorant or the matter isn’t grave (i.e. lying but even that depends on other factors like charity as well). If any of these cannot be met, then the sin isn’t mortal but these sins are still sin (even though they are venial). In short, ignorance of a sin doesn’t change the action being a sin but rather the personal culpability of the matter.

I wouldn’t say that the Church hates it but rather she loves her members enough to tell them what is right and wrong in the eyes of God. Masturbation does hurt people. Look in the Family Life section, and listen to the stories of women whom are hurt by this sin and pornography.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Also, on a side note, I am so happy that I do not see sin as strictly as many of you. I get anxious and I think I have slight OCD. Once I get started on a topic, I can’t get it out of my head. If I thought that masturbation, or pre marital sex, or some of the other things I believe are harmless but the Catholic church does not permit were so horrible, it would be all I could think about. I have no doubt that my life would be unhappy because of this. I thank God that I have a more liberal version of morality than the Catholic church (basically follow the golden rule) because if not, I would drive myself mad.

If one is out of control due to mental illness, I believe the issue of consent would be questioned. (Other Catholic posters, if I am wrong please correct me). I’ve struggled with scrupulosity (basically spiritual OCD) after a controlling and sometimes abusive relationship with an ex; I put my ex’s exacting standards upon God and wore myself out, and then lived out my fleshy desires.

Now I do follow the Church’s standards but it helps me to go through these three conditions to see if I sinned. If I do commit a mortal sin, I know Christ is ready to forgive me in the Confessional. Christ, who is God and man, decided what sin is and what it is not by creating our nature but He is also merciful to a repentant sinner.

Here is Scrupulous Anonymous for more on that.

 

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I wouldn’t say that the Church hates it but rather she loves her members enough to tell them what is right and wrong in the eyes of God. Masturbation does hurt people. Look in the Family Life section, and listen to the stories of women whom are hurt by this sin and pornography.

Well in some ways masturbation can definitely hurt people. People should not do anything in excess, and obviously this includes masturbation. If you are so addicted with masturbation that you do it all the time and it causes you to not be there for your family or not do things you should, it is definitely hurting people. There is no doubt about that. Also, as you mentioned, if a wife is offended by her husband masturbating, that hurts people.

But, I don’t masturbate enough that it effects my life at all, and my wife is completely fine with it and she masturbates as well. So basically, I cannot find someone that is effected negatively by my masturbating…and to be honest I find that it relieves stress for me and that it can help me go to sleep, so in the end I could make the argument it is helping me.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Well in some ways masturbation can definitely hurt people. People should not do anything in excess, and obviously this includes masturbation. If you are so addicted with masturbation that you do it all the time and it causes you to not be there for your family or not do things you should, it is definitely hurting people. There is no doubt about that. Also, as you mentioned, if a wife is offended by her husband masturbating, that hurts people.

But, I don’t masturbate enough that it effects my life at all, and my wife is completely fine with it and she masturbates as well. So basically, I cannot find someone that is effected negatively by my masturbating…and to be honest I find that it relieves stress for me and that it can help me go to sleep, so in the end I could make the argument it is helping me.

Well, it affects you to enough to post about it here and question the sinfulness of it. Exercising can also help you go to sleep and create feel good chemicals to the brain similar to those with masturbation. This may be recommended instead of masturbating.

Also, while you may not indeed to hurt someone, you are do by the consequences of your sin. If these three conditions of moral sin have met, you are hurting your own soul and your wife may be also. Have you considered that possibility?

 

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Well, it affects you to enough to post about it here and question the sinfulness of it. Exercising can also help you go to sleep and create feel good chemicals to the brain similar to those with masturbation. This may be recommended instead of masturbating.

Also, while you may not indeed to hurt someone, you are do by the consequences of your sin. If these three conditions of moral sin have met, you are hurting your own soul and your wife may be also. Have you considered that possibility?

I only mentioned masturbation because I have seen it mentioned here before. When I was a teenager I used to get all worked up about it. Actually so did my friends, and they are now atheists. I believe that the guilt they felt from masturbating and sex is what opened their minds up to atheism. After two of my friends told me they were atheist, the next thing (or just about the next thing) out of their mouth was “no sin!” It was obvious that this was a big part of their decision to become atheists (to me at least). I actually told my friend that I thought he became an atheist as a backlash to Catholic guilt and he just laughed and didn’t respond. Anyway, I think that a lot of atheists originally from Christian background now are following this lead. And I think it is a problem with the church that they perpetuate so much guilt. It is not very welcoming to be honest. It doesn’t help that atheist proponents make very valid points and if I did not believe that God has touched my soul and spirit personally, and had actively helped me through hard times, then I would probably be an atheist too.

But I guess that is besides the point. I don’t consider masturbation as hurting my own soul to be honest. I live by these rules:

36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’** 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

I believe that this is the basis of all morality (at least the second commandment) and it is basically preached in all religions. I believe that all religions are a means to the same end (salvation) and all of the things that many people think are the basis of different religions (Jesus being God and dieing for our sins in Christianity, Muhammad being a prophet of God that received divine revelation in Islam, etc) are actually just small details for the bigger picture: Treat others the way you want to be treated.**

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I only mentioned masturbation because I have seen it mentioned here before. When I was a teenager I used to get all worked up about it. Actually so did my friends, and they are now atheists. I believe that the guilt they felt from masturbating and sex is what opened their minds up to atheism. After two of my friends told me they were atheist, the next thing (or just about the next thing) out of their mouth was “no sin!” It was obvious that this was a big part of their decision to become atheists (to me at least). I actually told my friend that I thought he became an atheist as a backlash to Catholic guilt and he just laughed and didn’t respond. Anyway, I think that a lot of atheists originally from Christian background now are following this lead. And I think it is a problem with the church that they perpetuate so much guilt. It is not very welcoming to be honest. It doesn’t help that atheist proponents make very valid points and if I did not believe that God has touched my soul and spirit personally, and had actively helped me through hard times, then I would probably be an atheist too.

But I guess that is besides the point. I don’t consider masturbation as hurting my own soul to be honest. I live by these rules:

36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’** 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

I believe that this is the basis of all morality (at least the second commandment) and it is basically preached in all religions. I believe that all religions are a means to the same end (salvation) and all of the things that many people think are the basis of different religions (Jesus being God and dieing for our sins in Christianity, Muhammad being a prophet of God that received divine revelation in Islam, etc) are actually just small details for the bigger picture: Treat others the way you want to be treated.**

Here is the kicker: Jesus is God and man and God, not humanity, determines what sin is and what it is not. If one’s conscience is purely of a societal construct, then we are constrained to the opinions of others:

A third

 

[thistle]

But if you don’t accept the Church’s teachings, then you don’t believe it is a sin.

That’s even worse. If a Catholic does not accept the Church’s teaching that is heresy and such a Catholic would be in a state of mortal sin and subject to even being excommunicated.