Moral values of Muslims and Catholics

[famdigy]

It is against God’s plan, to be fruitful and multiply.
In particular:

• birth control pills can cause a spontanious abortion if an egg “slips through” and is fertilized
• withdrawal- well, you see what happened to Onan
• barriers- same effect as above
• iud’s- prevent implantaion of a fertilized egg (if you believe that life begins at conception, this is a no-brainer)
• morning after pill- causes spontanious abortion by design
  Before 1930, no Christian church preached that artificial birth control was acceptable.

Now I ask you, have Shi’ites always been allowed to practice artificial birth control? If not, what year did Shi’ites begin to allow artificial birth control?

I believe they have always been allowed to practice birth control but I can’t p(name removed by moderator)oint a date or year where this was allowed.

Mark, spontaneous abortions happen even when birth control is not used, isn’t that why women keep their pregnancy quiet for at least the first 3 months?

If it is unavoidable even without birth control then why disallow birth control? because disallowing birth control doesn’t avoid spontaneous abortions anyway.

What happened to Onan sounds more like fiction and seems at odds with modern science. How does that work exactly and is there other historical records that talk about death by coitus interruptus?

So the real reason why not to pull is out is fear of death?

 

[mark_a]

Are any Muslims besides Shi’ites allowing artificial birth control?

 

[famdigy]

Are any Muslims besides Shi’ites allowing artificial birth control?

From my limited Google research, yes; all Muslims allow birth control.

about the story of Onan, has any catholic tested that theory?

 

[mark_a]

I believe they have always been allowed to practice birth control but I can’t p(name removed by moderator)oint a date or year where this was allowed.

Ask around, I’d be interested to know more.

Mark, spontaneous abortions happen even when birth control is not used, isn’t that why women keep their pregnancy quiet for at least the first 3 months?

If it is unavoidable even without birth control then why disallow birth control? because disallowing birth control doesn’t avoid spontaneous abortions anyway.

Concerning life, we consider whatever happens naturally to be God’s will, as painful as it might be in the case of miscarriage. Taking drugs known to cause spontanious abortion is a deliberate attempt to defeat God’s will after he has created life at the fertilization.

What happened to Onan sounds more like fiction and seems at odds with modern science. How does that work exactly and is there other historical records that talk about death by coitus interruptus? So the real reason why not to pull is out is fear of death?

God killed Onan for not fulfilling his obligation.

 

[Sabda]

There is a huge difference between personal understanding, or group understanding of God and what certain religions claim to be scripture from God.

Islamic scripture states that God ordered Muslims to convert, subjugate under Islamic rule all Christians and Jews. From what you said above, then you accept that God told the Muslims this after telling Christians something totally different in opposition to this?

If you accept that God told this to the Muslims, then you accept that they have the right to harm you and your family because their ‘understanding of God’ is that they have to do this to win the world over for Islam.

No that’s not what I’m saying. I’m not saying God told them one thing and us another. God is the same period! What’s different is our understanding of God. Muslims do not understand God in the exact same way we do. Just as children do not have the same understanding of their mother as their father does. However, she is still the same person. I’m probably not wording this right.

Take the Jews. They worship the same God that Christians do. However, they do not except the Trinity and do not except Jesus as the Savior or as the second Person of the Trinity. Does that mean they worship a different God? No, it means they have a different understanding of God. It’s the same with Muslims.

Another good example would be all the different Christians faiths out there. Do they all worship a different God simple because they all believe different things about God? No, they worship the same God they simply have a different understanding of Him. BTW, I’m not saying that everyone’s understanding of God is correct. People have been known to be wrong in their impressions of others.

If you believe that Muslims simply have a different, but legitimate view of the same God, then why is God pitting us against each other?

I do not believe that God pitted us against each other. I believe we pit ourselves against each other. If my children get into an argument with each other is that my fault or their fault?

 

[BelFarfalla]

No that’s not what I’m saying. I’m not saying God told them one thing and us another. God is the same period! What’s different is our understanding of God. Muslims do not understand God in the exact same way we do. Just as children do not have the same understanding of their mother as their father does. However, she is still the same person. I’m probably not wording this right.
Take the Jews. They worship the same God that Christians do. However, they do not except the Trinity and do not except Jesus as the Savior or as the second Person of the Trinity. Does that mean they worship a different God? No, it means they have a different understanding of God. It’s the same with Muslims.
Another good example would be all the different Christians faiths out there. Do they all worship a different God simple because they all believe different things about God? No, they worship the same God they simply have a different understanding of Him. BTW, I’m not saying that everyone’s understanding of God is correct. People have been known to be wrong in their impressions of others.
I do not believe that God pitted us against each other. I believe we pit ourselves against each other. If my children get into an argument with each other is that my fault or their fault?

I agree that Jews, Christians and Muslims have different views of the same God.
But I’m confused about your view of the differences in the NT/OT & the Qur’an. Since you agree that God is not pitting us against each other, how do you reconcile that the Qur’an does in fact do with naming Christians and Jews (and any other non-Muslim) as people that Muslims must subdue or get rid of so that Islam rules the world.
Do you believe that Islam’s Qur’an is a valid scripture written by God and given to the Muslims?

 

[mark_a]

From my limited Google research, yes; all Muslims allow birth control.

Even the fundamentalists? I am honestly shocked.

about the story of Onan, has any catholic tested that theory?

I’m sure it happens all the time. We have plenty of Orthodox here reminding us that only 1-2% of (applicable) Catholics are not using some type of artificial birth control. But as Pope Benedict says, truth is not determined by majority vote.

 

[famdigy]

Even the fundamentalists? I am honestly shocked.
I’m sure it happens all the time. We have plenty of Orthodox here reminding us that only 1-2% of (applicable) Catholics are not using some type of artificial birth control. But as Pope Benedict says, truth is not determined by majority vote.

By fundamentalists I’m guessing your referring to the wahabi / salafis. They believe it is allowed but discourage it, not sure why.

in that case, my follow-up question is whether pulling-out is allowed in the catholic faith? Apparently Onan’s experience doesn’t apply to us, otherwise we’d see 98% death rate among catholics who use birth control

 

[BelFarfalla]

I do not believe that God pitted us against each other. I believe we pit ourselves against each other. If my children get into an argument with each other is that my fault or their fault?

Do you believe that the Bible (OT & NT) and the Qur’an are all from God?

 

[mark_a]

By fundamentalists I’m guessing your referring to the wahabi / salafis. They believe it is allowed but discourage it, not sure why.

in that case, my follow-up question is whether pulling-out is allowed in the catholic faith? Apparently Onan’s experience doesn’t apply to us, otherwise we’d see 98% death rate among catholics who use birth control

Pulling out is not allowed. It’s probably not really effective either.

We are called to coopreate with God’s plan and design of the act. Even when we consider it “inconvenient”.

 

[famdigy]

Pulling out is not allowed. It’s probably not really effective either.

We are called to coopreate with God’s plan and design of the act. Even when we consider it “inconvenient”.

my delima here is the circular logic, and this was pointed out in the article.
Birth control is not allowed because God’s plan is for people to procreate. Therefore sex is only for procreation and not for pleasure. If sex is only for procreation then people who can not have babies really shouldn’t be having sex because they can’t fulfill Gods plan but they continue to have sex and the catholic faith doesn’t disallow that. which means they can have sex for pleasure and not to procreate. Therefore if people can have sex for pleasure, it does not make a difference whether they use contraceptives or not.

 

[BelFarfalla]

my delima here is the circular logic, and this was pointed out in the article.
Birth control is not allowed because God’s plan is for people to procreate. Therefore sex is only for procreation and not for pleasure. If sex is only for procreation then people who can not have babies really shouldn’t be having sex because they can’t fulfill Gods plan but they continue to have sex and the catholic faith doesn’t disallow that. which means they can have sex for pleasure and not to procreate. Therefore if people can have sex for pleasure, it does not make a difference whether they use contraceptives or not.

In the case of a couple who cannot have children, that God’s choice.

In the case of contraception, it is man’s choice to prohibit, usually through not allowing a fertilized egg to grow to maturity.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I question how the God of Christianity can be the same as the Allah of Islam.

In the Bible God tells us of Jesus, “This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.”

Allah in the Qu’ran states he has no son.

God cannot lie, but there is a contradiction. How can they be the same?

There is only one God.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam agree on this.

 

[Lev23]

There is only one God.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam agree on this.

Islam’s God is not the God of hebrew scripture, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob(Israel). Isaac was the child of promise to Abraham.

 

[mark_a]

my delima here is the circular logic, and this was pointed out in the article.
Birth control is not allowed because God’s plan is for people to procreate. Therefore sex is only for procreation and not for pleasure. If sex is only for procreation then people who can not have babies really shouldn’t be having sex because they can’t fulfill Gods plan but they continue to have sex and the catholic faith doesn’t disallow that. which means they can have sex for pleasure and not to procreate. Therefore if people can have sex for pleasure, it does not make a difference whether they use contraceptives or not.

You are reading more into the teaching than exists.

We must remain open to life.

I am still interested to know if Islam has changed its teachings or if contraception was always ok. And since the Catholic Church has always taught that we are to be open to life, and the Jews recorded Onan’s fate as a warning, does Islam’s teaching about contraception go all the way back to Muhammed?

 

[mark_a]

You are reading more into the teaching than exists.

We must remain open to life.

I am still interested to know if Islam has changed its teachings or if contraception was always ok. And since the Catholic Church has always taught that we are to be open to life, and the Jews recorded Onan’s fate as a warning, does Islam’s teaching about contraception go all the way back to Muhammed?

bump

 

[mark_a]

According to Shiite islam Jurisprudence, Contraceptives are Allowed. See the link for further details al-islam.org/m_morals/chap4.htm

A question to catholics:
why isn’t birth control allowed in Catholicism?

A little more misinformation from the above link concerning the Catholic teaching that forbids artificial birth control.

On the whole, there are three opinions on birth control and abortion. On the one extreme, the Roman Catholic Church (See Instruction on Respect for Human Life in Its Origin and the Dignity of Procreation: Replies to Certain Questions of the Day, Vatican City, 1987.) forbids birth control as well as abortion; ('Allamah Rizvi comments on the Catholic view as follows: “The Vatican seems oblivious of [the] simple difference between underlying reason of a law and the law itself. That is why it has totally prohibited use of contraceptives, on the plea that it goes against the philosophy of marriage. But does Vatican have the conviction of courage to take this ‘argument’ to its logical end? Is it prepared to forbid intercourse with a pregnant wife, or ban marriage of infertile men or women? They should have banned these and other examples…because they too cannot produce pregnancy. The prelates of the Roman Catholic Church all unmarried men are perhaps unaware that lawful satisfaction of sexual urge is in itself a valid underlying reason of marriage.” See the footnote in al-Mizan, vol. 8 (English translation) p. 104.) and on the other extreme, the libertarians and feminists consider birth control and abortion as the basic rights of women. In between these two extremes, Islam allows birth control but forbids abortion.

 

[Sabda]

I agree that Jews, Christians and Muslims have different views of the same God.
But I’m confused about your view of the differences in the NT/OT & the Qur’an.

I’m by far not an expert on Islam. You clearly have more knowledge of them than I do. I have read a little, very little, I’m going by what I have heard Muslims say and what the CCC says. Muslims say they worship the God of Abraham and the CCC agrees.

Since you agree that God is not pitting us against each other, how do you reconcile that the Qur’an does in fact do with naming Christians and Jews (and any other non-Muslim) as people that Muslims must subdue or get rid of so that Islam rules the world.

Unfortunately, just as in real families you will have mothers killing their children and brothers and sisters killing each other. I would say that they have a real serious misunderstanding of God’s ways.

Do you believe that Islam’s Qur’an is a valid scripture written by God and given to the Muslims?

As a Catholic I would obviously have to say no.

 

[famdigy]

A little more misinformation from the above link concerning the Catholic teaching that forbids artificial birth control.

where’s the misinformation. Do catholics not believe sex is only for reproducing. Another question, if sex is only for reproducing what about sex with pregnant women? is that allowed and if so, wouldn’t it contradict the idea of sex for reproduction

 

[mark_a]

where’s the misinformation. Do catholics not believe sex is only for reproducing. Another question, if sex is only for reproducing what about sex with pregnant women? is that allowed and if so, wouldn’t it contradict the idea of sex for reproduction

The Catholic teaching is:

Life begins at conception, not implantation.

The marital act is uniative and procreative.

Sex with your own pregnant wife is just fine.

Sex during the infertile part of a woman’s cycle is fine.

Sex with a wife who is past menopause is fine.

Sex within sacramental marriage is encouraged by the Catholic Church.

By the way, we are allowed only one wife.