Morality of cage fighting?

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Rocko said:
Okay. Point taken. Now lets compare the same scenario with something we know for sure is sinful. Pre-marital sex. Just because your partner knows what she is getting into does not make your own actions virtuous. So just because your opponent knows he could get mauled, does not necessarily mean that mauling him is okay.

Sometimes when I see people compare regular sports like football with sports like (real) fighting, I just don’t get it. I’ve played my share of any sport out there, but none of them have ever tipped my conscience like this one has. It’s just something about the intent of the player’s actions… in most sports, the actions have at least a somewhat innocent motive, such as getting the ball into the end zone. Now people may get hurt in the process, but that is only a secondary effect. Whereas fighting, especially free-style fighting such as this, the main goal, without exception, is to hurt the opponent. I believe that is where the moral problem lies. But I’m no moral theologian… that’s why I came here.
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Good point, good point. But, unlike pre-marital sex where the intention and very action is sin, in MMA all that is truly required to make it a sin is more or less the intention. The action if it is too cruel, but generally the intention. Like i said, arm bar away, but it seems like unlike pre-marital sex which is agreed upon as a sin accross the board, MMA is not.

Also, in boxing the primary goal is to hurt the opponent too. If that is the same reason why you are having doubts about MMA, then by all means you should be having the same doubts about boxing and karate competitions and wrestling.
 
TheQuestioner said:
Also, in boxing the primary goal is to hurt the opponent too. If that is the same reason why you are having doubts about MMA, then by all means you should be having the same doubts about boxing and karate competitions and wrestling.
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I posted earlier, my pastor said that Pope Leo XXIII condemned professional boxing, but I think he actually said Pope John XXIII. So, yeah, you’re right about boxing. As for Karate or Wrestling, I’m not sure. I really doubt wrestling is sinful because there is little risk of being seriously injured as that is not specifically the goal. Submissions only hurt for a short time. But getting beat in the head can cause long term damage, and to intentionally put ourselves at risk for that would be sinful. Our body is a temple of the Holy Ghost and it is our duty to take care of it. And I have no idea about Karate, but I’m guessing that since it is not a true martial art, those competitions are probably more based on points rather than knock out.

Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2288:
“Life and physical health are precious gifts entrusted to us by God. We must take reasonable care of them, taking into account the needs of others and the common good.”
 
Rocko said:
I posted earlier, my pastor said that Pope Leo XXIII condemned professional boxing, but I think he actually said Pope John XXIII. So, yeah, you’re right about boxing. As for Karate or Wrestling, I’m not sure. I really doubt wrestling is sinful because there is little risk of being seriously injured as that is not specifically the goal. Submissions only hurt for a short time. But getting beat in the head can cause long term damage, and to intentionally put ourselves at risk for that would be sinful. Our body is a temple of the Holy Ghost and it is our duty to take care of it. And I have no idea about Karate, but I’m guessing that since it is not a true martial art, those competitions are probably more based on points rather than knock out.

Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2288:
“Life and physical health are precious gifts entrusted to us by God. We must take reasonable care of them, taking into account the needs of others and the common good.”
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It is not always sinful to but your body at risk of harm, otherwise every soldier is in danger of hell. Pope Leo may have condemned professional boxing, but i don’t think any pope after him felt the need to. I think that maybe the Pope condemned it not because boxing was inherently wrong, but because of the danger involved, and the fact that he did not want anyone to take their bodies for granted. Once again the intention of why someone may be boxing is in question here.
 
I don’t think fighting “for fun” or as a sport is in itself sinful but it can be a near occasion to sin by doing so. Perhaps by being to hard or injuring your body or someone else due to carelessness or getting too carried away in the fighting ect. I’m sure a well disciplined fighter won’t fall into such sins as easily however.

Also it can be considered good exercise which leads to good health. I took martial arts for a few years in my early teens and I was in my best shape yet at that time. I remember quitting because it became less and less challenging and less interesting as I advanced and they didn’t really have advanced lessons at the time and I just couldn’t afford the time. I really miss it and may soon join again once I have time again.
 
Rocko said:
I posted earlier, my pastor said that Pope Leo XXIII condemned professional boxing, but I think he actually said Pope John XXIII. So, yeah, you’re right about boxing. As for Karate or Wrestling, I’m not sure. I really doubt wrestling is sinful because there is little risk of being seriously injured as that is not specifically the goal. Submissions only hurt for a short time. But getting beat in the head can cause long term damage, and to intentionally put ourselves at risk for that would be sinful. Our body is a temple of the Holy Ghost and it is our duty to take care of it. And I have no idea about Karate, but I’m guessing that since it is not a true martial art, those competitions are probably more based on points rather than knock out.

Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2288:
“Life and physical health are precious gifts entrusted to us by God. We must take reasonable care of them, taking into account the needs of others and the common good.”
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Karate not a true martial art? Karate was one of the first martial arts!
 
TheQuestioner said:
It is not always sinful to but your body at risk of harm, otherwise every soldier is in danger of hell.
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True, that’s why there would need to be a proportional reason to do so. Soldiers have the proportional reason of Patriotism which is a daughter virtue of Piety
 
chaz0426 said:
Karate not a true martial art? Karate was one of the first martial arts!
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Well I may not know what I’m talking about when it comes to Karate, but I have heard several reliable sources say that it’s not a true martial art because it was not designed to be used in warfare. That’s what they say anyway.
 
Hey Rocko,

Just like many you has responded to you. I am not a theologian. So here, as a fellow brother in faith, I want to give you some thoughts to help you make the right decision because that is what being a Catholic is. It’s to help each other and the peoples of the world become saints – i.e. ultimately join God in union.

Now remember since I am working towards that goal, and hopefully you are too, take my responses in that context.
  1. The way I understand it, soldiers are fighting under just causes for war. This is not quite the same as patriotism. Say I’m the leader of Hate Nation and I pronounce it is patriotic to have a war on Nearby Nation because of false pretexts. A Catholic in this nation, lets assume he ended up here by mistake, is not able to assent to this decision. If he is force to serve, any harm he does may have lesser culpability. But for an unjust war and he knows it, he has to at least not agree with it inside.
  2. I do not know what cage fighting is. But if it’s not a physical sport with honorable means and aims as well as proper limits to protect it’s members from harm, it is probably against Catholic teaching since it serves to cause harm. The few instances of it being okay to cause harm are never self propagated that I can remember (i.e. you are compelled by immediate force such as self-defense, defense of family and people, that type of thing.) Since sports are design with both the intent and limits to prevent real harm, as in damage organs and such, they are okay to be done as a sport competition.
  3. If you choose to do something deliberately against Church teaching, something probably all of us here have done, it is a mortal sin if you knew, for whatever reason, that it is seriously wrong. And furthermore, you cannot plan to commit the sin with intentions that you will confess after the act is done. Then you’ll have to confess for that intention too while being sorry and willing to not do that again. Mortal sins puts your soul in jeopardy so confession is needed. Don’t scruple if it is a mortal sin, the situation is clear.
  4. Lastly, here is a big encouragement. Not doing something bad is in itself a good thing and you can offer up your sacrifice to God. Doing so will strengthen your inner being making it easier on average to make good decisions in the future. For me personally, offering up my own sacrifice to God makes it a lot easier to handle and gives it meaning when other wise I could feel lost at what to do.
Rocko, I honestly hope you will work to strengthen your spirit, it’s one of the training for the ultimate goal of being a Catholic. Like sports, this training takes work, sometimes very hard work.
 
StillWondering said:
But if it’s not a physical sport with honorable means and aims as well as proper limits to protect it’s members from harm, it is probably against Catholic teaching since it serves to cause harm.
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Good point. Thanks.

Well I talked to my pastor today and got some really good guidance for all of this. He says that other sports such as football take means to protect the players from harm, by use of pads and/or rules to prevent dangerous behavior. In addition, their goal is not to hurt the other players, but instead, for example, to get the ball in the end zone.

He says there is no specific Church Teaching on the morality of MMA, as it is with most issues of morality. So what we must do is apply the principles of morality to make specific judgments. The principles he gave are these:
  1. You shouldn’t purposefully inflict damage to the body of another, or expose yourself to high risk of bodily damage, without a proportionate reason.
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  1. The Use of Reason is one of the greatest gifts given to us by God. To relinquish that use of reason (without proportionate reason) is a grave sin. This is why excessive drugs and alcohol are bad. Therefore exposing yourself to a knockout, in addition to going against the bodily harm principle, would be putting yourself at risk for losing your Use of Reason via punch drunkenness.
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  1. To attend an event is to approve of its activities. Therefore going to a fight, which you know would be violating the above mentioned principles, would also be sinful - provided there is not a proportionate reason to do so. If it was strictly for entertainment, then yes it would be sinful. But he did say that if I went to the fight as an investigation to see what it was like and to learn if it did in fact violate those principles, then it would be permissible.
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And considering that, although I haven’t been to see a fight yet, I am well aware of what goes on, I won’t be going this Saturday night to see three of my team mates fight. I also will not be fighting in September. But I will still continue my training with them. Now I just need to break the news to everyone, starting with my trainers…

Thanks everyone for all your advice! 👍
 
All I can tell you is that I have been watching MMA since the early days and I love it! The first fight I remember seeing was in college with Ken Shamrock and Pat Smith and I think I’ve been addicted ever since. :slapfight: I have definitely struggled at times with whether or not it is sinful for me to watch, but I do not believe it is.

But I could not in good conscience encourage another person to actively pursue fighting not knowing for certain if it is sinful. I hope that you make the right decision.
 
Well it looks like you made your decision and, might I say, I really admire your desire to be the kind of man God wants you to be and not weakly making excuses for your “sin.”
In this case that could have easily been done.
Since you have looked at your conscience and decided to stay away from possible sin, you will have to be careful not to accuse your buddies of sinning by their being in the fight. (Unless you think it’s your place to tell them. I think your decision to back out might be witness enough.)
Maybe start out the conversation by asking if they ever feel any guilt when they senselessly pound their opponent’s face. Tell them that you were ready and looking forward to getting in the ring but that something made it feel wrong when being taught to do just that -pounding a face in a mount. That’s when you started wondering if it was the way God would want you to be using your body and that you only want to glorify Him.

They might laugh at you, but they might really respect that too. Your body is a temple and you don’t want to use it for all-out-fighting if you don’t have to.

God Bless you greatly! Ironically, fighting would be the easy way out. Your loyality to God, and not bending, may bring people to wonder what makes you tick -not just in this situation, but throughout your life.
Let us know how it goes!
 
Rocko said:
And considering that, although I haven’t been to see a fight yet, I am well aware of what goes on, I won’t be going this Saturday night to see three of my team mates fight. I also will not be fighting in September. But I will still continue my training with them. Now I just need to break the news to everyone, starting with my trainers…

Thanks everyone for all your advice! 👍
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Cheers for you Rocko! You have our support. And I would not be surprised if there were prayers for you in helping you make your decision.
 
Rocko, I have struggled with this question for some time. Like you, I have taken classes in mixed martial arts, although not to the point that I would be skilled enough for actual competition. I have also been a big UFC fan and have justified my enjoyment of mma by arguing that it is now a regulated sport with strict rules. However, after watching UFC 100 where Dan Henderson risked killing Michael Bisping in order to “shut him up” and Brock Lesnar acting like classless pig, I began to reexamine my enjoyment of the sport.

Ultimately, I have come to the conclusion that, in good conscience, I cannot watch mma anymore. I am taking enjoyment in men damaging each other’s bodies and risking their permanent health. Yes, the same can be said for many sports, such as football but the difference with mma is that the object of the sport is to hurt a fellow human being. The fact alone that someone is knocked out is a serious injury that could pose permanent neurological problems for a person and many submission moves risk permanently injuring someone’s limb, if not outright choking them out. Additionally, the environment surrounding professional mma is not one where God is glorified as it is rampant with profanity and sexual temptation, especially in the form of the scantily clad cage girls and many female attendees.

That said, I do not think it is immoral to learn such techniques for occasions where self-defense is justified. As long as there is sufficient protective equipment, participants are carefully supervised, and blows to the head are limited if not banned, I think it is a great activity for both body and mind. I would argue the same way for boxing, where the activity itself is very beneficial for one’s health and I enjoy amateur boxing as there is more protective gear and knockouts are much less frequent. I would say that professional boxing, which is actually more dangerous than mma, is also immoral.

Finally, I want to say that I think you have a good pastor. As a Marine, he must have seen more violence than he cares to remember and he is simply looking out for you. He obviously possesses the physical skills necessary to kill if need be, but he is right that such skills should not be used simply “for fun.” I think your conscience tends to agree and I would explain this to your teammates and coaches. They may not understand but they are not the ones who will judge you in the next life. I will pray for you and please pray for me as I face the same challenge with some of my friends as watching UFC was a regular activity and now I will have to tell them that I am no longer condoning this sport.
 
I had a year of T’ai Ch’i training, and while I learned it more for the relaxation and the exercise it provides, I started to get a little into the self-defense aspects. I don’t believe competitive fighting of any kind is sinful. Picking a fight out of hate, anger, spite, or pride or beating someone up just because you can – now, that’s sinful, but testing the limits of your strength or agility certainly isn’t.
 
Matrix Refugee,

I completely agree with you that not all forms of fighting are sinful. I enjoy watching martial arts and wished I had the talent and skill to actively compete in them, especially jiu-jitsu and judo. I do not think there is anything sinful with organized competitions where the emphasis is technique. However, there should be plenty of safety gear in place as well as an emphasis on style and technique and not knocking someone out. Yes, injuries, even serious ones, will occur but that is the nature of the beast and certainly not the intent.

The difference between such organized martial arts and amateur boxing events and mma cage fighting is that the object of the latter is precisely to render an opponent unable to continue with the fight. Furthermore, the event itself caters to our most primal urges. Just ask yourself, do you get the same enjoyment out of a technically sound grappling fight as you do of a highlight-reel knockout? I can’t answer for you, but I will be honest and say I don’t. Rather, I am like Alypius in The Confessions as I become seduced by the sensational knockout. After discernment, however, I realize that such enjoyment is coming at the expense of someone’s health, if not life.

Therefore, I certainly would never tell anyone not to engage in martial arts or self-defense training. In fact, if I ever have a son, I would try to involve him in such activities for his mental and physical health. However, I would never want him stepping into a cage cheered on by a bloodthirsty crowd and pummeling another human being for “sport.”
 
These have been some good responses! I’m glad you are taking the time to explore the subject as deeply as I have. As I said before, I decided not to fight. I finally called my trainer and told him we need to talk. So within a few minutes we met at a car wash and I explained to him why I wasn’t going to fight. He was totally cool about it. Being a religious person himself, he really respected me for making a tough decision like that based on my Faith. But for all the respect he gave me for it, he said if I changed my mind again because someone talks me into it, that really wouldn’t be cool.

And ya know, one of the big factors people are looking for when they fight is respect. By not fighting for the right reasons I got lots of respect… and it’s the kind of respect I can sleep easy with.

Thanks again for all the great responses!
 
Rocko said:
I just joined a mixed martial arts school a few months ago and we’ve been training hard all summer. Last month we had a meeting and set dates for several of us to fight in the cage. They assured me I would be ready and I agreed to do it. Since then, I’ve been training very hard to make sure I would be ready.

Then the other day I stopped by my parish rectory to ask about any spiritual aspects to consider with such a sport. The priest I talked to, a former Marine, in short told me it would be gravely sinful. WOAH! I was not expecting that! I was hoping to get a patron saint to pray to or something, not a condemnation!

He explained the principle that fighting is only permissible if there is sufficient reason to do so - and “for fun” doesn’t cut it.

The problem is that, although we talked for a long time, and it was long enough to convince me I shouldn’t go in the cage, I don’t have a clue how to break the news to all my trainers, the other students in the school, and all my friends who are planning to go to my fight! There’s at least three dozen people I know of expecting me to fight - almost none of whom are very religious. I really feel like I would be letting a lot of people down by backing out. I’ve got some serious stuff to contemplate over… please help me out!

Oh and Father also told me that even WATCHING a fight would be gravely sinful because it would be condoning such activity. That’s really quite disappointing since I’ve already got a vacation day scheduled to see some of our guys fight on August 1st and I was really looking forward to it.

So any advice would be greatly appreciated!!
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I’m a fellow martial artist, and I’m kinda mixed about this entire issue. What are some possible “sufficient reasons”?
  1. Self-defense - Say you are fighting to learn how to defend yourself. Most people can flail their limbs and whack at something. But martial arts teach you how to do that well. If you’re forced to live in a bad neighborhood and want to defend your children, learning martial arts may be a good way to do it. Of course, you can’t learn an art without getting physical. Not only does your body need the proper muscle tone, but you also need to develop the proper reflexes and body mechanics.
  2. Health - Maybe you’re learning an art for the health aspect (as in Tai Chi). That seems like a pretty sufficient reason as well. But you won’t be able to fully understand the health aspect without getting a little physical. (Anyone who is into Tai Chi shouldn’t take it from me. Take it from Cheng Man-ching.)
Perhaps fighting is sinful when it glorifies violence and encourages others to fight for some purpose other than the sufficient ones. Perhaps some events are sinful for their objectification of bikini-clad babes.

While I can’t offer any arguments for the “sinfulness of condoning sins”, I do believe that condoning sinful action is sinful.

Oh! And then there’s the morality of training practices, right?😃

I don’t really have much to offer on yet, but I just wanted to throw some random thoughts out there.
 
I also been in matial arts, but I stop due to work and studies, but I think it’s okay as long it is not rooted with hatred. its a competion of strength and being athletics. and it is also a self-defense. but before you going to a fight pray that both of you would not be caused to much damage, i mean to cause someone to die in a cage or ring. just offer it to god and pray for your fight. but don’t fight if you are full of hatred its different than fighting because of competion/sport. gud luck and be a sportmanship type of fighter not hot temper and arrogant one.
 
How’s this for an answer?

My family started going to a Church in Florida (which we STILL miss, 15 years later) because my brother and I were in karate with one of the Priests. 😃
 
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