Morality of jobs and what am I supposed to DO for the rest of my days on this earth?

[vern_humphrey]

No prejudice, just listening to my faith.

And I chose that field, because 3 years ago, it seemed like the thing to do. I have since rediscovered my faith, and am now stuck with a very comprehensive understanding of business, but that includes a deep knowledge of business mission, which is highly immoral.

You understand you are perfectly free to go out and start your own business, and run it according to your moral lights.

Let us know how you fare.

 

[CB_Catholic]

The example was really just to illustrate a point.

Our economy is capitalist, and wherever, whenever, however possible this means the maximisation of profits. This is the fundamental goal of business, and is completely contrary to our Catholic Faith.

Holding clients, building up good relationships etc… are all the other side of the capitalist coin, namely securing future customers for… you guessed it, the maximisation of profits.

The problem I am facing is that, almost wherever one works, it is not unto Jesus Christ, but money, and as an employee of that business, you are inevitably entangled and asked to do things to that goal.

I don’t think maximizing profits is completely contrary to our Catholic faith as long as it is done in an ethical manner. Most business owners want to maximize their profits so they can re-invest into the business, sustain it, and build it. This is not immoral if done in an ethical manner, and if good stewardship of the resources is practiced. There are plenty of ethical business firms out there, and more and more pressure is on them to keep things on the up and up, or they will sooner or later be busted for their practices (haven’t you read the papers lately?)

You have to accept the fact that you live in the real world, work in the real world, and nothing is perfect. Your duty as a Christian is to bring the light of Christ to your environment, not by preaching and prosetylizing, but by being the best employee you can be–honest, hardworking, generous, respectful, and productive. People will notice this, for sure, and be influenced by it. I have seen this happen in my own particular work environment.

But if you go into the world of work with the attitude that everything is bad and corrupt, and unethical and immoral, that surely is going to have an effect on your performance, and you are going to majorly unhappy, if you even find a decent job. Don’t go looking for things. Ask the Lord to help you find a job and then do your best. If things come up, you will learn how to deal with them–that is how we learn and grow. Don’t expect perfection from people or your employer–it won’t happen and you will end up miserable.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Arbitrary profit maximization is impossible.

If the profit gets too high, customers will go somewhere else where the price is lower. Or … if profit gets too high, competitors will emerge from all over the place … unless the government gets involved and prevents competition.

Competition is an automatic restraint on “excessive” profit maximization.

There are competitive products and substitute products or people will do without.

People can also buy competitive products on the secondary markets (used / second hand equipment) and they can devise some DIY substitute.

DIY also brings to mind the way that many people cannot afford to hire contractors to do work on their homes and businesses, so they patronize the Home Depots of the world. And if you don’t like Home Depot, there are local lumber yards and hardware stores and the internet and eBay sellers.

Competition puts automatic limits on “maximization” of profits.

The only places that have no limits are those that have government-imposed monopolies. And even then, some organizations are able to compete by offering superior customer service. Think Fed Ex vs. the US Postal Service. And all the competitors that have emerged … UPS, Airborne, DHL, etc.

There seems to be a hangup on profit.

What I said in my OP was that profit maximisation was immoral when it became the focus of the business.

I am aware of the necessity of some profit to remain in business.

Since, however, profit maximisation underpins the very economy in which we operate, it is difficult, if not impossible to find a business that operates in accordance to God, and not to money.

This is the essence of my problem. Profit maximisation is really a signal that all is not right within the firm.

 

[rlg94086]

**I don’t understand you. **

That is probably due to your age and complete lack of experience…and confusion over the role of a Catholic in the working world.

You point out that what I said was possible (even if a Catholic salesman should not do it) -

And then tell me I don’t understand sales:

Pointing out that something is possible, but that a Catholic salesman wouldn’t (shouldn’t) do it does not mean that sales itself is contrary to a religious life. It means that a religious person brings their faith into their business dealings…as they should.

Could you pick a position and stick with it, instead of dismissing me with an illogical comment.

It is you who are not being logical. You are assuming that sales is antithetical to religion because some salespeople are unethical. I could use your same reasoning to prove that the priesthood is antithetical to religion because some priests are unethical.

I don’t think you are genuine in your questions. You have basically discounted every worldly job as contrary to religion because it has the potential for evil. Then, you discount the religious life as the “easy way out.” That leaves you with absolutely no employment whatsoever.

BTW…in case you are considering that, doing no work and sponging off everyone else is also against Church teaching. It’s called sloth.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Arbitrary profit maximization is impossible.

If the profit gets too high, customers will go somewhere else where the price is lower. Or … if profit gets too high, competitors will emerge from all over the place … unless the government gets involved and prevents competition.

Competition is an automatic restraint on “excessive” profit maximization.

There are competitive products and substitute products or people will do without.

People can also buy competitive products on the secondary markets (used / second hand equipment) and they can devise some DIY substitute.

DIY also brings to mind the way that many people cannot afford to hire contractors to do work on their homes and businesses, so they patronize the Home Depots of the world. And if you don’t like Home Depot, there are local lumber yards and hardware stores and the internet and eBay sellers.

Competition puts automatic limits on “maximization” of profits.

The only places that have no limits are those that have government-imposed monopolies. And even then, some organizations are able to compete by offering superior customer service. Think Fed Ex vs. the US Postal Service. And all the competitors that have emerged … UPS, Airborne, DHL, etc.

A lot of people are taken in by the 19th and early 20th Century economic fads, and don’t know what capitalism is.

Capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production and distribution, operated for profit in a competitive environment.

People who don’t understand that point at things like monopolies as examples of the “evils” of capitalism – without understanding that a monopoly (a non-competitive situation) is the very opposite of capitalism.

 

[rlg94086]

You understand you are perfectly free to go out and start your own business, and run it according to your moral lights.

Let us know how you fare.

That’s probably a good idea. I don’t know any business, Catholic or otherwise, that would hire a manager for their SBU with such an utter lack of business understanding.

 

[vern_humphrey]

That’s probably a good idea. I don’t know any business, Catholic or otherwise, that would hire a manager for their SBU with such an utter lack of business understanding.

I think it would be a humbling experience, too. And Catholics are supposed to be humble, are we not?

 

[Magicsilence]

That is probably due to your age and complete lack of experience…and confusion over the role of a Catholic in the working world.

Perhaps, I am willing to hold this possibility.

Pointing out that something is possible, but that a Catholic salesman wouldn’t (shouldn’t) do it does not mean that sales itself is contrary to a religious life. It means that a religious person brings their faith into their business dealings…as they should.

Either sales is immoral or not. If it is not, then there should be nothing that a Christian could bring to the job. If you are saying that a person should bring their faith to the dealing, you are implying that something was wrong with it beforehand.

It is you who are not being logical. You are assuming that sales is antithetical to religion because some salespeople are unethical. I could use your same reasoning to prove that the priesthood is antithetical to religion because some priests are unethical.

I did not, and am not making this argument. Sales, within a business that seeks to profit maximise is usually immoral.

I don’t think you are genuine in your questions. You have basically discounted every worldly job as contrary to religion because it has the potential for evil. Then, you discount the religious life as the “easy way out.” That leaves you with absolutely no employment whatsoever.

That comment was tongue-in-cheek, and I am trying to face up to a reality, namely that capitalism dominates almost all aspects of Western activity. I am not trying to prove my way into doing nothing. The question I am asking is, how do we as Catholics survive, when most jobs ask us to comply with immorality?

BTW…in case you are considering that, doing no work and sponging off everyone else is also against Church teaching. It’s called sloth.

Like I said above, I am not looking for a fight on this.

In Jesus Christ,

 

[Magicsilence]

That’s probably a good idea. I don’t know any business, Catholic or otherwise, that would hire a manager for their SBU with such an utter lack of business understanding.

Please substantiate this.

 

[Magicsilence]

I think it would be a humbling experience, too. And Catholics are supposed to be humble, are we not?

I love this post

 

[jmcrae]

Either sales is immoral or not. If it is not, then there should be nothing that a Christian could bring to the job. If you are saying that a person should bring their faith to the dealing, you are implying that something was wrong with it beforehand.

Christians, and especially Catholics, bring an extra dimension to every kind of work that we do. It doesn’t mean that the job itself was originally “immoral.”

I have a friend who works as an office administrator. She is a better office administrator for being a good Catholic, but that doesn’t mean that the job of keeping things organized and running smoothly in an office is somehow “evil.”

(Although I think her co-workers think that she is something of a tyrant, because she insists that they complete their paperwork correctly each day before going home for the day.)

I am not trying to prove my way into doing nothing. The question I am asking is, how do we as Catholics survive, when most jobs ask us to comply with immorality?

“Most jobs” do absolutely nothing of the sort. Like I told you before, find some companies whose value systems fit with yours, and start applying. It’s not all that complicated.

 

[Magicsilence]

You understand you are perfectly free to go out and start your own business, and run it according to your moral lights.

Let us know how you fare.

Indeed, I highlighted this in my original post.

This is always an option, and one which is becoming increasingly more likely.

I just wanted an insight from the vast majority of Catholics not able to undertake this option.

In Jesus Christ,

 

[Aramis]

True capitalism lacks the constant interference the US GOvernment provides.

Now, my experiences are that many sales jobs are quite immoral, specifically because one is asked to avoid telling the truth. Not to lie, but to avoid certain bits of the truth to avoid loss of sales. To intentionally mislead clients, without ever lying to them outright.

Likewise, I’ve known some downright greedy people, for whom the only reason not to rob the till at night is that they bring home more in a month than any one till will have. Several of these are ex-management at McDonalds.

I’ve worked for a boss whose exact words were “Do whatever you can to raise productivity.” I’ve had another who refused to pay employment and income taxes so as to up his profit margin. ($25000+ in fines later, he pays them.)

So, in seeking employment, there are many employers to avoid; the trick is finding out which before contracting.

 

[jmcrae]

Indeed, I highlighted this in my original post.

This is always an option, and one which is becoming increasingly more likely.

I just wanted an insight from the vast majority of Catholics not able to undertake this option.

In Jesus Christ,

Of course, once you do that, you will suddenly realize that the “evil profit” is what’s keeping the roof over your head and the food on your table - not to mention the gas in your car and the clothes on your back. And when you have to hire people, you will care less about their religious convictions than about their ability and willingness to maximize profits.

 

[Magicsilence]

Christians, and especially Catholics, bring an extra dimension to every kind of work that we do. It doesn’t mean that the job itself was originally “immoral.”

I have a friend who works as an office administrator. She is a better office administrator for being a good Catholic, but that doesn’t mean that the job of keeping things organized and running smoothly in an office is somehow “evil.”

Yes, you are completely right, my comment was only with reference to that specific post, and its previous context.

“Most jobs” do absolutely nothing of the sort. Like I told you before, find some companies whose value systems fit with yours, and start applying. It’s not all that complicated.

I only have one value I would like them to share, and that is a love for God and His Son.

Most jobs and their employers do not share this value, so I am surprised you think practice points otherwise?

 

[Magicsilence]

True capitalism lacks the constant interference the US GOvernment provides.

Now, my experiences are that many sales jobs are quite immoral, specifically because one is asked to avoid telling the truth. Not to lie, but to avoid certain bits of the truth to avoid loss of sales. To intentionally mislead clients, without ever lying to them outright.

Likewise, I’ve known some downright greedy people, for whom the only reason not to rob the till at night is that they bring home more in a month than any one till will have. Several of these are ex-management at McDonalds.

I’ve worked for a boss whose exact words were “Do whatever you can to raise productivity.” I’ve had another who refused to pay employment and income taxes so as to up his profit margin. ($25000+ in fines later, he pays them.)

So, in seeking employment, there are many employers to avoid; the trick is finding out which before contracting.

So, would you agree that in general, many jobs implicitly require immoral action, or at least the passive acceptance of immorality?

What did you do then to find a job that wasn’t immoral?

 

[Magicsilence]

Of course, once you do that, you will suddenly realize that the “evil profit” is what’s keeping the roof over your head and the food on your table - not to mention the gas in your car and the clothes on your back. And when you have to hire people, you will care less about their religious convictions than about their ability and willingness to maximize profits.

I have NEVER said that profit is evil, but the pursuit of profit maximisation IS when placed in front of all else.

Why do you think I would suddenly do a U-turn once I owned my own business?

 

[vern_humphrey]

So, would you agree that in general, many jobs implicitly require immoral action, or at least the passive acceptance of immorality?

Nope.

What did you do then to find a job that wasn’t immoral?

I stopped pretending that I was holier than everyone else.

 

[lak611]

I only have one value I would like them to share, and that is a love for God and His Son.

Do you have a calling to the priesthood?

 

[Magicsilence]

Nope.

I stopped pretending that I was holier than everyone else.

Thanks for the tip!