M
Magicsilence
Guest
Still sorely lacking in virtue, but discerning it.
However, I am still confused as to what everyone else (not priests) are doing to earn a living while remaining upright before God?!
In Jesus Christ,
Morality of jobs and what am I supposed to DO for the rest of my days on this earth?
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However, I am still confused as to what everyone else (not priests) are doing to earn a living while remaining upright before God?!
In Jesus Christ,
L
lak611
Guest
There is a business here in town that makes and sells mattresses. The owner is a devout Catholic. His advertisements stress education on the product to potential customers. The salespersons explain the product, take the customers on a tour of the factory, and let the customers decide if the mattresses are right for them. There are never any sales advertised. The prices are standard. None of the production is outsourced. If a customer says “no”, there is no “hard-sell”. The owner believes in building a quality product and being honest to his customers. He donates to many Catholic charities in the city.Still sorely lacking in virtue, but discerning it.
However, I am still confused as to what everyone else (not priests) are doing to earn a living while remaining upright before God?!
In Jesus Christ,
H
homewardbound
Guest
What do I do to work and still remain upright before God? I am punctual and a hard worker. I am good natured and friendly to all I come in contact with. I do not call off unless it is a life threatening emergency or very severe illness. I pray before going to work everyday that God will help me do all things that will glorify and please him.Still sorely lacking in virtue, but discerning it.
However, I am still confused as to what everyone else (not priests) are doing to earn a living while remaining upright before God?!
In Jesus Christ,
All of my jobs have been minimum wage. I make just enough to get by, and sometimes not even that. But, no matter what struggles I may have, I thank God for giving me this ability to have employment and do my best to work to the best of my ability and be a good testament for Him.
A
Al_Masetti
Guest
I found this little gem:
The Bible: Work or Don’t Eat
For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “If a man will not work, he shall not eat.” 2 Thessalonians 3:10
Yep, don’t work, don’t eat. I think that says it all.
Notice that it doesn’t say that those who CAN NOT work should not eat. No, we should have compassion on and help out those people. But if someone can work, yet WILL NOT work, then he’s left to the consequences of his actions (or inactions in this case).
Here are a couple other verses on this same line of thinking:
Lazy hands make a man poor, but diligent hands bring wealth. Proverbs 10:4
How long will you lie there, you sluggard? When will you get up from your sleep? A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest – and poverty will come on you like a bandit and scarcity like an armed man. Proverbs 6:9-11
So get out there and work! Or find a way to survive without eating.
The Bible: Work or Don’t Eat
For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “If a man will not work, he shall not eat.” 2 Thessalonians 3:10
Yep, don’t work, don’t eat. I think that says it all.
Notice that it doesn’t say that those who CAN NOT work should not eat. No, we should have compassion on and help out those people. But if someone can work, yet WILL NOT work, then he’s left to the consequences of his actions (or inactions in this case).
Here are a couple other verses on this same line of thinking:
Lazy hands make a man poor, but diligent hands bring wealth. Proverbs 10:4
How long will you lie there, you sluggard? When will you get up from your sleep? A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest – and poverty will come on you like a bandit and scarcity like an armed man. Proverbs 6:9-11
So get out there and work! Or find a way to survive without eating.
J
jmcrae
Guest
They put in an honest day’s work for an honest day’s wage, 5-6 days a week, with at least one day off to honour the Lord and keep the Sabbath.
Jesus worked as a carpenter; St. Paul worked as a tent maker, half the Apostles were self-employed fishermen, and the other half were government employees (of opposing governments, even!) They all earned their bread by the sweat of their brow, just like it says to do in Genesis. (How do you think they survived for three years during Christ’s ministry? They did receive alms from the four wealthy women, but that’s not all they lived on - they must have been working at least part of the time, as well.)
Paid work is not opposed to Christianity.
R
rlg94086
Guest
You are correct that profit maximization “when placed in front of all else” is evil. However, a sales job does not require that. This is why you are confused. I am required to bring in the maximum profit, but I am not required to place that in front of all else. The customers I sell to are also trying to maximize profit, but that doesn’t mean that they are placing it “in front of all else.”
This is a false statement. Sales is immoral if done with the intent of maximizing profit “in front of all else.” Sales is moral if done honestly, with the best interest of both your company and your customer in mind.
This is true of many, many jobs. For example: is teaching moral or immoral? Depends on what you teach. Is practicing medicine moral or immoral? It depends on how you practice medicine.
This is why I made the assessment that no business would hire you. If you don’t understand the difference between an ethically run business and an unethically run business, then you have no aptitude to run a business unit. It is that simple. I hope you come to grips with this and learn how to be a Catholic businessman…or Catholic whatever-you-decide.
M
Magicsilence
Guest
This is fantastic. An honest product with an honest price, and honest salesman. This is exactly how business should be, a complement to our life in Christ.
Working for this man would raise no objections, the problem is, where are the rest of these businesses!?
M
Magicsilence
Guest
So, with regard to minimum wage jobs. There are a number of minimum wage jobs that probably would have very little moral conflict - like sweeping leaves, or washing cars. But, I am sure that does not mean all Catholics are forced into this avenue.
If one honestly believes that God gave them knowledge and intelligence, in what kind of a job may it be used unto God, and not unto profit max?
M
Magicsilence
Guest
I have no problem with working per se, but am questioning the morality of a high number of jobs centered on profit maximisation as an implicit goal, with other immoral actions that tend to come in unison.I found this little gem:
The Bible: Work or Don’t Eat
For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “If a man will not work, he shall not eat.” 2 Thessalonians 3:10
Yep, don’t work, don’t eat. I think that says it all.
Notice that it doesn’t say that those who CAN NOT work should not eat. No, we should have compassion on and help out those people. But if someone can work, yet WILL NOT work, then he’s left to the consequences of his actions (or inactions in this case).
Here are a couple other verses on this same line of thinking:
Lazy hands make a man poor, but diligent hands bring wealth. Proverbs 10:4
How long will you lie there, you sluggard? When will you get up from your sleep? A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest – and poverty will come on you like a bandit and scarcity like an armed man. Proverbs 6:9-11
So get out there and work! Or find a way to survive without eating.
I am trying to find out what everyone else does with regard to this.
M
Magicsilence
Guest
ALL self-employedThey put in an honest day’s work for an honest day’s wage, 5-6 days a week, with at least one day off to honour the Lord and keep the Sabbath.
Jesus worked as a carpenter; St. Paul worked as a tent maker, half the Apostles were self-employed fishermen, and the other half were government employees (of opposing governments, even!) They all earned their bread by the sweat of their brow, just like it says to do in Genesis. (How do you think they survived for three years during Christ’s ministry? They did receive alms from the four wealthy women, but that’s not all they lived on - they must have been working at least part of the time, as well.)
Paid work is not opposed to Christianity.
Perhaps this is the only option?
I have no problem with it, but just want to know what the rest of the world does.
M
Magicsilence
Guest
All employees are (at least) supposed to work in line with business objectives. If the business mission is to increase value for shareholders, then that means a maximisation of profit. If this is NOT stressed over and above honest salesmanship then you are working in a good firm. This is not my experience of 99% of other firms.
Indeed, and apologies for the myopic definition, but the point still remains, that within most businesses, sales are more important than ‘ethical’ commitments.
Yes, but I was referring to the normal practice found within most businesses. My point is summarised in the practice of commission on sales.
Ok, thank-you for trying to substantiate it.
I do understand this. Very well. It is what prompted this thread. I have already been in the position of running a unit within which I had pressure to go against the principles of the Catholic Faith. The definition, however, between ethical and unethical is highly, highly subjective, and if you are basing your position on working only within an ethical business, I can see how it is much easier to find these businesses and work within them, because ethicality is not so difficult to find.
Businesses that work for God, however, are difficult to find. The two are not congruent.
I have already come to grips with this, but do not agree with your implicit assumption that being ethical as understood by the majority of people equates to harmony with the Catholic Faith.
I believe the assessment ‘business is business’ is an affront to Christian values, do you agree?
P
puzzleannie
Guest
we have a more balanced view of the world of work and commerce in general and don’t make such global moral judgements unfounded on reality. We also perhaps begin with discerning God’s will for us in our lives and vocation, rather than by condemning the work everyone else is doing. I know a young man (not so young, late 30s now) who has avoided work for years using excuses like this but has absolutely no problem accepting support from people who are employed by the evil empire.
S
seekerz
Guest
Magicsilence, I can kind of see your point but fears of moral dilemmas should not prevent us from taking jobs. What is required as Christians is that we stand up when faced with difficult moral choices. That usually means paying a price and this is why the Christian life is a narrow, winding road.
I will agree with you that in working for someone, it is very difficult to avoid being required to do something immoral. So many things come up, from lying or denying the truth to avoid the company being liable for some action/inaction, to aiding or assisting through your work the immoral acts of others.
There are loads of examples in everyday life: -misleading advertising (get xyz free, pay only shipping and handling, when in fact xyz’s price is factored into the handling fee)
-IT jobs that require facilitating internet activities for websites that may be involved in moral as well as immoral activity
-management level jobs in competitive fields where the job description/perks offered to lure good talent do not match the actual job (i.e. lying to attract employees to your company and away from another)
I could go on endlessly. You are right in that moral challenges exist with just about any job on the planet. We are called to go out and face those challenges; not compromise; not live in denial of our actions; not look the other way to keep bread on the table; not salve our consciences by going to confession rather than standing up for what is right…
Real life is tough if you want to live in Christ, but anyone who belongs to Him is more than equal to the task.
I will agree with you that in working for someone, it is very difficult to avoid being required to do something immoral. So many things come up, from lying or denying the truth to avoid the company being liable for some action/inaction, to aiding or assisting through your work the immoral acts of others.
There are loads of examples in everyday life: -misleading advertising (get xyz free, pay only shipping and handling, when in fact xyz’s price is factored into the handling fee)
-IT jobs that require facilitating internet activities for websites that may be involved in moral as well as immoral activity
-management level jobs in competitive fields where the job description/perks offered to lure good talent do not match the actual job (i.e. lying to attract employees to your company and away from another)
I could go on endlessly. You are right in that moral challenges exist with just about any job on the planet. We are called to go out and face those challenges; not compromise; not live in denial of our actions; not look the other way to keep bread on the table; not salve our consciences by going to confession rather than standing up for what is right…
Real life is tough if you want to live in Christ, but anyone who belongs to Him is more than equal to the task.
M
Magicsilence
Guest
If I had wanted to avoid work, I wouldn’t have spent every minute of my summer holidays working to prep me for life.
I can’t boast experience by reason of my position, but I can ask solutions to a problem I believe is very real.
This thread is part of my discernment of vocation. Instead of condemning me as a wannabe bum, can you offer some reasoned advice?
M
Magicsilence
Guest
Indeed, this is what I am trying to ask. When faced with these moral dilemmas, what are Catholics doing? Repeatedly getting fired?
Thankyou for this honest assessment!!
This is the essence of the problem. Faith in Christ compels us to condemn immoral activity, yet it is at the heart of so many activities, which means that it is inevitable any sort of complex, well payed work will be entangled within it.
Does it mean that Catholics over the world are denying their faith? Or working simple jobs? Or other?
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
We work for it, of course!Still sorely lacking in virtue, but discerning it.
However, I am still confused as to what everyone else (not priests) are doing to earn a living while remaining upright before God?!
In Jesus Christ,
We turn in an honest day’s work for an honest wage. We constantly upgrade our skills and seek more responsibility. We get promoted. We are mindful of our duty to help those who cannot help themselves, but we also practice thrift and put aside a little in investments.
Then with our hearts knocking in our chests and with fear and trembling, we take our savings, invest in a business and work harder than ever.
And that way, we do something no government can do – we create jobs.
M
Magicsilence
Guest
Doing what !?!
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
Virtually any business.
I’ve been a cowboy, a soldier, worked in the commercial training and education industry. And currently I have a farm.
M
Magicsilence
Guest
I think you are missing the point of this thread
A
Al_Masetti
Guest
Go to a temp agency and give them your resume.
Then register with twelve temp agencies.
You will have your pick of jobs. Temp jobs. But one thing leads to another.
Pray over it.
Join with some of your classmates and form prayer partnerships. Pray for one another every day for a few seconds. Do it for 30 days as a Prayer Experiment.
I’ve been doing that actively since about 1980. It works. Try it.
**
Then register with twelve temp agencies.
You will have your pick of jobs. Temp jobs. But one thing leads to another.
Pray over it.
Join with some of your classmates and form prayer partnerships. Pray for one another every day for a few seconds. Do it for 30 days as a Prayer Experiment.
I’ve been doing that actively since about 1980. It works. Try it.
**
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