Morality of jobs and what am I supposed to DO for the rest of my days on this earth?

[Ridgerunner]

Thankyou for this post. It sheds a new angle on the subject.

Perhaps I could pose another question?

If you were offered a job by the mafia, why would it be immoral to take it?

I will definitely pray for Jack. Tonight.

I’m not sure this question exactly fits with previous things you have said, but here’s my answer. To my knowledge and understanding, the Mafia’s ONLY business is crime. And, the crimes, to my understanding, are not only illegal, they’re immoral. (Breaking the law is also immoral in itself, most of the time.)
Even to the extent they have “legal” businesses, they are there to cover up and/or further crime. Finally, if the stories are to be believed, one who knowingly works for the Mafia endangers himself/herself and his/her family unnecessarily, and that’s immoral too.

That’s a very different thing from working for somebody who actually produces a good or service that is or can be good for people, even if the employer is greedy or personally immoral.

 

[Magicsilence]

You sound like me. I worked at a bank. I have found many banking and business practices to be somewhat questionable. I finally reached the point when I discovered that business is not my lot in life. After discovering this I decided to pursue my dream that I’ve had for a long time.

I want to become a doctor and form a non-profit or charitable organization that provides health care to the poor or under-served. While going to school full-time, working full-time, and maintaining a strong GPA (I work or attend school 7 days a week… I don’t get days off) is extremely tiring and exhausting I know it is better than the alternative.

As my friend put it “You have two choices in life. Living the fulfilling life or the unfulfilling life.” If you feel that you are struggling in your current situation maybe you should rethink your position and where you want to take your life. As long as you follow God and listen to where He guides you things will be alright. You just have to be willing to make the jump. It sounds like you have the faith… now you need to jump.

Best of luck. My prayers are with you.

Mark

P.S. Sorry if I don’t respond… as I mentioned my time is very limited these days.

This is a really great post! Thankyou Mark.

So, your Faith called you away from your job because of the practices you observed. Do you think what you saw is representative of most big ‘city business’ ?

In Jesus Christ,

 

[Magicsilence]

I will definitely pray for Jack. Tonight.

I’m not sure this question exactly fits with previous things you have said, but here’s my answer. To my knowledge and understanding, the Mafia’s ONLY business is crime. And, the crimes, to my understanding, are not only illegal, they’re immoral. (Breaking the law is also immoral in itself, most of the time.)
Even to the extent they have “legal” businesses, they are there to cover up and/or further crime. Finally, if the stories are to be believed, one who knowingly works for the Mafia endangers himself/herself and his/her family unnecessarily, and that’s immoral too.

That’s a very different thing from working for somebody who actually produces a good or service that is or can be good for people, even if the employer is greedy or personally immoral.

Thank-you for your prayers, brother in Christ :hug3:

The question on the mafia was really to get at the core of the issue. Why is working for the mafia immoral, if you consider the job in isolation to any other threats, or activities?

Or, for better clarification, why is working for an abortion clinic immoral?

 

[whatevergirl]

Profit maximisation means doing whatever possible to increase profit.

Ordinarily, it means using whatever means necessary while not breaking the law, but where organisations can do so and believe they will not be caught, breaking the law is also done.

Global insurance broker? I don’t think I know enough about it.

Hi magic;

Ok…it’s so interesting that you bring this up. Recently, in my business…well, maybe not so recently, back about 2 years…our #1 competitor was caught ‘bid rigging,’ as the term is used. They were forcing carriers (yes forcing/bullying) to provide lower quotes, so they could hand pick the best carrier, and that carrier would give them a ‘cut’ or ‘contingent commission’ based on the $ amount they would send to them. Techinically, it is not illegal. Technically, it’s not unethical…but, they were steering business with the intent of over-profiting, as they say. What happened was that they paid like $1billion in fines to the respective states they did this in. Insurance is an intangible, and often with intangibles, the temptation to cross over the line, is very great…it’s all just paperwork, and if someone high enough up isn’t keeping an eye on the nationwide offices, then voila. Insurance can get into some sticky and criminal situations. Now, this changed the way insurance business will be transacted forever…the advent of ‘transparency’ is upon us…which I think is an awesome thing. We have nothing to hide, the way businesses should be run. The client should always know what he/she is paying for. (Client in this case is big Fortune 500 companies buying insurance for their employees and for their company)

It speaks to your ‘do anything to get to the bottom line’ mentality. How about hard work folks? ha I don’t believe in cutting corners, to save a buck or make one. I think that businesses can be enormously profitable, without shirking their neighbor.

 

[Magicsilence]

Hi magic;

Ok…it’s so interesting that you bring this up. Recently, in my business…well, maybe not so recently, back about 2 years…our #1 competitor was caught ‘bid rigging,’ as the term is used. They were forcing carriers (yes forcing/bullying) to provide lower quotes, so they could hand pick the best carrier, and that carrier would give them a ‘cut’ or ‘contingent commission’ based on the $ amount they would send to them. Techinically, it is not illegal. Technically, it’s not unethical…but, they were steering business with the intent of over-profiting, as they say. What happened was that they paid like $1billion in fines to the respective states they did this in. Insurance is an intangible, and often with intangibles, the temptation to cross over the line, is very great…it’s all just paperwork, and if someone high enough up isn’t keeping an eye on the nationwide offices, then voila. Insurance can get into some sticky and criminal situations. Now, this changed the way insurance business will be transacted forever…the advent of ‘transparency’ is upon us…which I think is an awesome thing. We have nothing to hide, the way businesses should be run. The client should always know what he/she is paying for. (Client in this case is big Fortune 500 companies buying insurance for their employees and for their company)

It speaks to your ‘do anything to get to the bottom line’ mentality. How about hard work folks? ha I don’t believe in cutting corners, to save a buck or make one. I think that businesses can be enormously profitable, without shirking their neighbor.

whatevergirl, your example shows greatly how immorality is present at most levels within the economy. Sometimes pressure from senior managers can bring it out in an illegal fashion, but the principle is still the same, namely - money at the expense of all else.

The transparency you speak of is a self-inflicted wound so to speak, but I am sure if they could, your competitor would do the same again (so long as they were not caught).

Under this scenario, is it moral to work for these firms who are essentially God-less?

What do you think?

 

[Sheeniac]

Profit maximisation means doing whatever possible to increase profit.

Ordinarily, it means using whatever means necessary while not breaking the law, but where organisations can do so and believe they will not be caught, breaking the law is also done.

Good grief. A business is not the mob or a street gang. With this type of thinking, no need to worry about where to work - no one is going to offer you a job.

You’re doing a HUGE disservice to your fellow Christians by even THINKING that way.

I conclude it must be from ignorance, or terrible luck.

 

[Magicsilence]

Good grief. A business is not the mob or a street gang. With this type of thinking, no need to worry about where to work - no one is going to offer you a job.

You’re doing a HUGE disservice to your fellow Christians by even THINKING that way.

I conclude it must be from ignorance, or terrible luck.

I admit the wording is crude, but it is still representative of the principles employed by most major businesses.

Why do you think otherwise?

 

[rlg94086]

Magicsilence,

Please accept my apologies for the nature of my posts. I took personal offense at your characterization of my vocation, but I should not have reacted in the hostile fashion that I did.

I do hope you find your calling. It sounds like it isn’t in business, but I’m sure you will find something you determine morally acceptable. I don’t share your cynicism toward the business world, and I hope you will learn with time that there are many, many businesses that are run in a moral fashion.

God bless and good luck.

 

[Magicsilence]

Magicsilence,

Please accept my apologies for the nature of my posts. I took personal offense at your characterization of my vocation, but I should not have reacted in the hostile fashion that I did.

Discussion always ruffles a few feathers. Especially when someone inclined towards scrupulosity is in the other corner. I took no offense from any of your posts, and really appreciate your insight. In turn, I am sorry for not thinking about what my questions may have suggested, and implying that you were immoral. Mea Culpa,

I do hope you find your calling. It sounds like it isn’t in business, but I’m sure you will find something you determine morally acceptable. I don’t share your cynicism toward the business world, and I hope you will learn with time that there are many, many businesses that are run in a moral fashion.

God bless and good luck.

I hope so too, it is what I wanted to find out through this thread. You posts are a great help to that end.

In Jesus Christ,

 

[Aramis]

I can see how this would be ok as manager, but what about the lowly sales assistant who is told to ‘sell, sell, sell’ ?

My clerks weren’t. They were told to be honest, open, and help customers, and to repair or clean rentals if not busy.

 

[Dispector]

This is a really great post! Thankyou Mark.

So, your Faith called you away from your job because of the practices you observed. Do you think what you saw is representative of most big ‘city business’ ?

In Jesus Christ,

Well, it was my Faith and my desire to further follow God in conjunction with the practices that I observed that made m change my direction. I had a very hard time reconciling the things I observed and my faith.

In regards to your second question, I would believe so. Of course, making a profit is important for any business to succeed and grow. However, many large companies allow their drive for profits twist their morals and ethics. Corporations, are by definition, profit seeking ventures for the stockholders. Their sole purpose is to earn money for their stockholders. The service provided is only the means to an end… which is profit.

And, if you notice many of the upper echelon of business are extremely wealthy. They are wealthy beyond the point of providing a living or financial security. They are driven by the desire of power and greed. And if anyone has ever been within a corporate situation you quickly realize that those up top didn’t get there from their sense of morality or ethics. Unfortunately, people below them don’t like to question the issues because they have kids to feed and a mortgage to pay.

Long answer short… yes… many companies use unethical ways to obtain a large profit.

Mark

 

[Al_Masetti]

Profit maximisation means doing whatever possible to increase profit.

This statement is really vague.

I think we need to ask for some clearcut understanding of what YOU mean by “maximization of profits”.

Saying “doing whatever possible to increase profit” is simply an unhelpful comment.

For example, a bakery could add sawdust to their flour … that would increase profits … for about a day. And then they would be out of business.

So, I think you need to be really specific.

Can you provide some concrete everyday examples of companies you don’t want to work for that exercise “profit maximization”?

It’s easy to use generalities. And then argue when folks are trying to be helpful. Unless you just have time on your hands and enjoy giving people a hard time. I think there’s a Web term for posters who do that.

So, let’s see some specifics.

Since you are reluctant to take ANY job, except for the most menial, owing to immorality, please provide examples of how every company is engaging in immoral acts by maximizing profits.

Thanks.

• Al

 

[vern_humphrey]

My clerks weren’t. They were told to be honest, open, and help customers, and to repair or clean rentals if not busy.

I think the lad has created his own reality, and is frustrated by it.

 

[whatevergirl]

whatevergirl, your example shows greatly how immorality is present at most levels within the economy. Sometimes pressure from senior managers can bring it out in an illegal fashion, but the principle is still the same, namely - money at the expense of all else.

The transparency you speak of is a self-inflicted wound so to speak, but I am sure if they could, your competitor would do the same again (so long as they were not caught).

Under this scenario, is it moral to work for these firms who are essentially God-less?

What do you think?

The firm itself did not condone it…this ultimately criminal behavior (there were some arrests) was from a select few at the top of local management. (local in NY, and some other big cities) So, it wasn’t a mantra that the industry supports, earning big profits at all costs–it was what I believe to be, pressure to make sales, but also a high level of greed I’m sure, played a masterful part. I think that for me, I look at the firm I work for, as how can I make a difference in my corner of the world? I work with ethical people in my region. I think that every place has its bad seeds (ie: even the RCC has had its share of problems–is the RCC an immoral insitution, absolutely not, but the immoral behavior of many priests, can sometimes taint outsiders’ views of the Church–this is but one example) It wasn’t quite the scandal that happened at Enron, this firm I bring up.

I don’t think that there is any place on the earth, where we could find no greed, no arrogance, no flaws. We work with humans, and as humans, we are flawed, and sin. For some reason, money can make people go a little nuts. LOL:shrug:

 

[rlg94086]

Well, it was my Faith and my desire to further follow God in conjunction with the practices that I observed that made m change my direction. I had a very hard time reconciling the things I observed and my faith.

In regards to your second question, I would believe so. Of course, making a profit is important for any business to succeed and grow. However, many large companies allow their drive for profits twist their morals and ethics. Corporations, are by definition, profit seeking ventures for the stockholders. Their sole purpose is to earn money for their stockholders. The service provided is only the means to an end… which is profit.

This is mostly true, and the Church does warn against this. However, there are companies who have values other than just earning money for their stockholders.

And, if you notice many of the upper echelon of business are extremely wealthy. They are wealthy beyond the point of providing a living or financial security. They are driven by the desire of power and greed. And if anyone has ever been within a corporate situation you quickly realize that those up top didn’t get there from their sense of morality or ethics. Unfortunately, people below them don’t like to question the issues because they have kids to feed and a mortgage to pay.

Don’t generalize like that. It is not charitable. Not all of the “upper echelon” are driven by power and greed. And, not all of them are lacking in morality and ethics.

Long answer short… yes… many companies use unethical ways to obtain a large profit.

Mark

Sure. Many…or some…it’s hard to quantify.

 

[whatevergirl]

I think a better phrase instead of profit maximization, magicsilence, would be…unethical business practices. Reason I say this is that any company would want to maximize its profits. I think the two words don’t fit, if I may be blunt. lol

I absolutely know where you are going with your thread though. Well done…it seems to have sparked some lively conversation, and I for one am in agreement with you. Companies, depending on the industry, take on new tactics to curb such behaviors, because again–people are flawed, and all of the background checks, etc…will not reveal if someone would steal or cheat or whatever from a company. At my firm, it’s called ‘business transparency,’ whereby the client sees everything in writing…everything is spelled out…every fee…every disclosure…everything we earned off of another carrier…it’s all there. Of course, there is a risk to my firm–the client might think we’re making too much, and ask us to decrease our commission. That happens sometimes, so people at first were skiddish. But, it’s the only way to ensure that the bad seeds don’t produce bad fruit! (and hopefully leave because they can’t hack an honest environment) Now, you may not know much about the insurance world…but we get a bad rap.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I’ve never worked in a business that allowed – let alone, encouraged – cheating. The fact is, too often sharp business practices turn around and bite the business in the butt.

 

[Ignatius]

I don’t know how else to put this. You are seriously off track my brother. Nowhere does the Church teach that there is anything wrong with profits in business. I’m afraid you’ve come under the influence of those that teach some false philosophy or are cynical to the point of being deluded. Please, get the Catechism of the Catholic Church and study it. You will find that matters most is what good you can do with the wealth and abundance that God gives you. Accept his gracious and bountiful blessings and use them to His glory! Glorify God and Sanctify your fellow man.

God bless.

 

[Sheeniac]

I admit the wording is crude, but it is still representative of the principles employed by most major businesses.

Why do you think otherwise?

Oh no… you made the statement - it’s up to you to prove it. Yes - the wording is crude - but even worse… the thought behind it is out of left field. Your assumption is baseless, unless you can prove it.

As Bishop Sheen would say, this is a case of someone with both feet planted firmly in mid-air. Your assumption is groundless, IMO. So, pony up and explain why you think that to be true.

And let us stick to the point and ONLY the point. Digressions are fine in regular discussion, but I think you need to defend your basic supposition or back off from it. I’ve read most of these posts, not all I admit. But I have yet to see a reasoned defense of your starting point.

 

[Sheeniac]

I’ve never worked in a business that allowed – let alone, encouraged – cheating. The fact is, too often sharp business practices turn around and bite the business in the butt.

Indeed, the business mags are awash with those who took questionable practices and found themselves out of business or out of a job. The free market works, although slowly at times.

Such hostility to business is shocking to me. I work in consulting, and most people are ethical. Of the few that aren’t, I would say that even a portion of those would consider themselves ethical, but our boundaries would be different.

The business world is built on reputations and relationships on all different levels. And it’s a very small world…

I suppose what irks me most is the holier than thou attitude of the OP.