Morality of jobs and what am I supposed to DO for the rest of my days on this earth?

[vern_humphrey]

I don’t think magicsilence is saying that at all.

He did say that selling was unethical (or sinful.)

The point of the thread, I thought, was to say that businesses these days will stoop to unethical practices (not illegal) to making their bottom line–and often, the bottom line is to raise someone’s stock a point who sits at the top. I’m assuming that MS’s stance on maximizing profits has to do with a company’s bottom line exceeding a necessary line of profiting. (ie my stock example) MS isn’t saying that it’s a sin to buy products…I mean, doesn’t that sound absurd? MS is saying that it is sinful to maximize profits if people are either a) having to sin in the process to get there and/or b) causing harm to others.

If it’s a sin to sell, it’s a sin to buy – which is why I use prostitution as an example. OIf no men were willing to buy, no women would be selling.

Anyways, perhaps you see a different angle with the thread, but that is my take.

My take is that virtually everyone with actual experience knows business is fundamentally what you make of it. In and of itself, it is neither moral nor immoral (how can it be, since only men can be moral or immoral?)

 

[Magicsilence]

I don’t think magicsilence is saying that at all. The point of the thread, I thought, was to say that businesses these days will stoop to unethical practices (not illegal) to making their bottom line–and often, the bottom line is to raise someone’s stock a point who sits at the top. I’m assuming that MS’s stance on maximizing profits has to do with a company’s bottom line exceeding a necessary line of profiting. (ie my stock example) MS isn’t saying that it’s a sin to buy products…I mean, doesn’t that sound absurd? MS is saying that it is sinful to maximize profits if people are either a) having to sin in the process to get there and/or b) causing harm to others.

Anyways, perhaps you see a different angle with the thread, but that is my take.

A beautifully succinct evaluation of my position.

And the question I am asking is whether working for these businesses is moral/immoral, and if it is immoral (as I believe to be the case), then what are other Catholics doing about it.

Vern’s reference to product choice is actually indeed true, but not the focus of this thread. Moreover, in the society in which we live, it is near impossible to find all products produced by those working for the glory of God. Job choice, however, is another matter.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I’m not sure what relevance this has to my point. When has sexual gratification ever been an intrinsic human need? It might be on Maslow’s hierarchy, but it is not a need that must be fulfilled at all costs.

On the other hand, eating IS a requirement for sustenance, so your comparison is not quite accurate.

Eating is a requirement for survival. Buying bread is not – since you can bake your own.

In the sunny old U.S of A, perhaps this is possible, along with physical land space to do it with. In central London, its not quite so easy.

As I said, claiming it would be** inconvenient** to marry that girl cannot justify patronizing a prostitute.

And if you hold all selling is immoral, then claiming it would be** inconvenient** to bake your own bread cannot justify participating in such an immoral act as buying.

Namely?

Namely your assumption that selling, in and of itself is immoral.

Deep down, you yourself don’t believe that – as proven by your willingness to buy – and to rationalize your cooperation in this evil act.

 

[whatevergirl]

A beautifully succinct evaluation of my position.

And the question I am asking is whether or not working for these businesses is moral/immoral, and if it is immoral (as I believe to be the case), then what are other Catholics doing about it.

Vern’s reference to product choice is actually indeed true, but not the focus of this thread. Moreover, in the society in which we live, it is near impossible to find all products produced by those working for the glory of God. Job choice, however, is another matter.

Being in business a while myself…I have been in the same industry, insurance, which gets a repeated ‘bad rap,’ as they say. Reason being, is that for example…take the hurricane season here in FL. A lot of insurance carriers ‘pulled out’ of the market completely, while others exclude wind storm, from covered perils. (or these companies jacked the prices up considerably) I suppose going with your line of thinking…none of us should be making 6 digit incomes, when you have people who cannot afford their homeowner coverage. Now, that is an interesting topic for another thread. But, I won’t be the one to start it.

I think it speaks though to your thread…and how do I as an employee in this industry, look at that happening all around me, yet, I stay with the company? Let’s go further…healthcare. There’s a can of pain I’ve opened. Many cannot afford medical care for their families (I’m speaking of hard working husbands and wives…not people who refuse to work) It’s a massive problem here in the USA. I also work in that industry as well…I am working in commercial insurance now, so again…there are people who have 3 and 4 homes all over the world, while there are people who cannot afford the care. Now, the buck does not stop with insurance companies, certainly. But, the doctors…wow, look what they charge, oh but they are saving lives. So, we overlook their huge costs. How about the hospitals? Wow, they charge a person $18 for a bandaid, when they stay overnight. Seriously, I had enormous fees incurred through the births of my two kids…and thankfully, we had insurance. Insurance to the rescue! An insurance company can be a person’s best friend…or his/her worst enemy. Last but not least–look at lawyers. Med mal has soared prices for us as consumers, because of valid and invalid lawsuits. You don’t have a calculator big enough to do this kind of math! LOL Lawsuits cause…what to happen? Doctors to have to carry higher limits of med mal coverage…(or never have a claim!) …so they charge more to you and me…the consumer. Then, insurance companies have to charge more, because there are so many lawsuits! The equation never ends.

So…back to the basics of your thread. I work in an industry, where I suppose I could look at all that, and make an ethical judgement upon it…and I have. The benefit that we provide however, is that we help people to go back to the way they lived their lives before they had the accident, or flood, or whatever they are using insurance for. (Death ‘benefits’ are another topic for another time…not sure if we could ever take someone back to their life before a death, certainly not emotionally…but we try to from a financial perspective) But, it is not the insurance world’s job to help someone else to profit from his/her calamity. That is often why people despise insurance companies…and why fraud is soooooo high. (we as consumers also pay for all those consumers who commit fraud)

The waters are muddied, the deeper you go into the corporate ‘swamp.’ But, I agree…it would be quite hard to find an organization out there, where someone at the top wasn’t over paid, so to speak…or the intentions of a few were not subtly taught to many. It is tricky–business. I am grateful to work for a company that enables me to provide for my family…and to tithe, and give to the poor. I look at my work as a gift from God…

But, don’t think I don’t ever think of corporate America in the light you do…because I do. I like your thread–it’s interesting.

 

[Magicsilence]

Eating is a requirement for survival. Buying bread is not – since you can bake your own.

It was only an example of one necessity, and not meant to be scrutinized regarding the technical feasibility or requirement of such an action.

As I said, claiming it would be** inconvenient** to marry that girl cannot justify patronizing a prostitute.

:yup: I agree already!

And if you hold all selling is immoral, then claiming it would be** inconvenient** to bake your own bread cannot justify participating in such an immoral act as buying.

Selling in itself is not immoral, but the kind of sales employed by a majority of businesses is. Sales, as understood by the actions employed by most people is immoral.

Namely your assumption that selling, in and of itself is immoral.

Deep down, you yourself don’t believe that – as proven by your willingness to buy – and to rationalize your cooperation in this evil act.

Nonsense, since the immorality comes from deception or manipulation by a sales assistant.

I can purchase an item on my own, if I so wish. Like items purchased from a supermarket.

Now, you may question the morality of such an action based on my previous points, but not on the immorality of sales.

In Jesus Christ,

 

[whatevergirl]

I meant to add…that to leave a company because someone is getting overpaid, doesn’t seem to make sense to me. Now, Walmart…when it was asking its employees (again some local level managers…not the corporation itself) to clock out at a certain time, and then continue working without pay…hello, totally immoral and wrong. I don’t shop much there anymore, after reading that. But, an interesting paradigm to note here, is that companies are made up of people. People represent ‘xyz’ company. I represent my firm. If I do something unethical, even though I’m one out of 20,000 employees…you may choose to view the firm I work for as unethical…because I in essence represent said company.

I like to believe people are inherently good. I am not naive to think that big business doesn’t hire bad seeds, though. We had bad seeds too, and they were let go, showing that the company obviuosly doesn’t condone unethical work practices. But, I agree that it can get hazy…sometimes, immorality is shaded in grey.

 

[Magicsilence]

Being in business a while myself…I have been in the same industry, insurance, which gets a repeated ‘bad rap,’ as they say. Reason being, is that for example…take the hurricane season here in FL. A lot of insurance carriers ‘pulled out’ of the market completely, while others exclude wind storm, from covered perils. (or these companies jacked the prices up considerably) I suppose going with your line of thinking…none of us should be making 6 digit incomes, when you have people who cannot afford their homeowner coverage. Now, that is an interesting topic for another thread. But, I won’t be the one to start it.

I think it speaks though to your thread…and how do I as an employee in this industry, look at that happening all around me, yet, I stay with the company? Let’s go further…healthcare. There’s a can of pain I’ve opened. Many cannot afford medical care for their families (I’m speaking of hard working husbands and wives…not people who refuse to work) It’s a massive problem here in the USA. I also work in that industry as well…I am working in commercial insurance now, so again…there are people who have 3 and 4 homes all over the world, while there are people who cannot afford the care. Now, the buck does not stop with insurance companies, certainly. But, the doctors…wow, look what they charge, oh but they are saving lives. So, we overlook their huge costs. How about the hospitals? Wow, they charge a person $18 for a bandaid, when they stay overnight. Seriously, I had enormous fees incurred through the births of my two kids…and thankfully, we had insurance. Insurance to the rescue! An insurance company can be a person’s best friend…or his/her worst enemy. Last but not least–look at lawyers. Med mal has soared prices for us as consumers, because of valid and invalid lawsuits. You don’t have a calculator big enough to do this kind of math! LOL Lawsuits cause…what to happen? Doctors to have to carry higher limits of med mal coverage…(or never have a claim!) …so they charge more to you and me…the consumer. Then, insurance companies have to charge more, because there are so many lawsuits! The equation never ends.

So…back to the basics of your thread. I work in an industry, where I suppose I could look at all that, and make an ethical judgement upon it…and I have. The benefit that we provide however, is that we help people to go back to the way they lived their lives before they had the accident, or flood, or whatever they are using insurance for. (Death ‘benefits’ are another topic for another time…not sure if we could ever take someone back to their life before a death, certainly not emotionally…but we try to from a financial perspective) But, it is not the insurance world’s job to help someone else to profit from his/her calamity. That is often why people despise insurance companies…and why fraud is soooooo high. (we as consumers also pay for all those consumers who commit fraud)

The waters are muddied, the deeper you go into the corporate ‘swamp.’ But, I agree…it would be quite hard to find an organization out there, where someone at the top wasn’t over paid, so to speak…or the intentions of a few were not subtly taught to many. It is tricky–business. I am to work for a company that enables me to provide for my family…and to tithe, and give to the poor. I look at my work as a gift from God…

But, don’t think I don’t ever think of corporate America in the light you do…because I do. I like your thread–it’s interesting.

Dear whatevergirl,

Your post raises a point I think should have been clearly outlined in my OP, but I didn’t, so… I’ll do it now

Two things affect the perceived immorality of a business.

One, the nature of the business and the service / product provided.

Second, the manner in which the business practice is carried out.

Many many businesses are not immoral with regard to the nature of the business. Making cars, computers, clothes etc… is morally neutral.

But, businesses can ‘carry out’ the business in an immoral way; namely by selling shares and giving control of the company to others who want only to increase their own wealth. This in turn leads to the business doing everything it can (usually legal, but sometimes not) to work to that end, and much of it would be immoral (like using sex in advertising, or deceptive packaging etc…).

I have no problem with the nature of most businesses, but the way in which it is done.

So, with regard to insurance (for example), it may well be moral as a product/service, but the practices employed by senior managers are influenced by shareholders who want more and more money, and could be less than stellar.

This is the essence of the problem, that the method is corrupt, even if the end product is beneficial or morally neutral (like pencils).

In Jesus Christ,

 

[vern_humphrey]

Selling in itself is not immoral, but the kind of sales employed by a majority of businesses is. Sales, as understood by the actions employed by most people is immoral.

Nonsense. I challenge you to back that up with hard numbers – spell out these “actions” and show us what percentage of of businesses employ them.

Nonsense, since the immorality comes from deception or manipulation by a sales assistant.

Ah, so you have passed judgement on the majority of sales assistants?

I can purchase an item on my own, if I so wish. Like items purchased from a supermarket.

But you said “the kind of sales employed by a majority of businesses is. Sales, as understood by the actions employed by most people is immoral.”

Now, you may question the morality of such an action based on my previous points, but not on the immorality of sales.

Quite the contrary – if there is anything immoral it is someone with little or no experiece passing such sweeping, holier-than-thou judgements on the “deception or manipulation by sales assistants” in the “majority of businesses.”

 

[whatevergirl]

Dear whatevergirl,

Your post raises a point I think should have been clearly outlined in my OP, but I didn’t, so… I’ll do it now

Two things affect the perceived immorality of a business.

One, the nature of the business and the service / product provided.

Second, the manner in which the business practice is carried out.

Many many businesses are not immoral with regard to the nature of the business. Making cars, computers, clothes etc… is morally neutral.

But, businesses can ‘carry out’ the business in an immoral way; namely by selling shares and giving control of the company to others who want only to increase their own wealth. This in turn leads to the business doing everything it can (usually legal, but sometimes not) to work to that end, and much of it would be immoral (like using sex in advertising, or deceptive packaging etc…).

I have no problem with the nature of most businesses, but the way in which it is done.

So, with regard to insurance (for example), it may well be moral as a product/service, but the practices employed by senior managers are influenced by shareholders who want more and more money, and tend to be less than stellar.

This is the essence of the problem, that the method is corrupt, even if the end product is beneficial or morally neutral (like pencils).

In Jesus Christ,

That is really a good point. But, in this country, the stock system is alive and well…and it is not a bad system, per se…again, to quote your point…in an of itself. Standing alone, the stock system (mutual funds, 401 k’s, and the like) are all very good vehicles to amass wealth. I mean, my dh and I would like to retire earlier than 65! But…I agree…when investors become more important than doing the right thing…a company is doomed.

 

[whatevergirl]

Nonsense. I challenge you to back that up with hard numbers – spell out these “actions” and show us what percentage of of businesses employ them.

Ah, so you have passed judgement on the majority of sales assistants?

But you said “the kind of sales employed by a majority of businesses is. Sales, as understood by the actions employed by most people is immoral.”

Quite the contrary – if there is anything immoral it is someone with little or no experiece passing such sweeping, holier-than-thou judgements on the “deception or manipulation by sales assistants” in the “majority of businesses.”

this is like watching a virtual chess game between you two.

 

[Magicsilence]

Quite the contrary – if there is anything immoral it is someone with little or no experiece passing such sweeping, holier-than-thou judgements on the “deception or manipulation by sales assistants” in the “majority of businesses.”

This is not productive.

The practice of cold-calling highlights the practices I am referring to.

If you have never experienced it, then I can see why you are arguing against me, but it is very real, and very present within much of the business world.

In Jesus Christ,

 

[whatevergirl]

MS–could you define your impression of a ‘sales assistant?’ Here in the states, it might mean something totally different.

 

[jmcrae]

Ok -

Major food stores using underhand tactics to temporarily boost sales

Like what?

I go to the grocery store with my list and a certain amount of money. If I run out of money, I stop putting things in my cart and I go to the check-out. They usually get the same amount of money from me, each time I go. Or a little less. But never more.

Clothes stores using sex in advertising (year round)

Some do; not all. When’s the last time you saw a Winner’s ad with sex in it?

Retail stores with sales assistants that are trained to increase the amount customers spend, regardless of needs

How stupid do they think we are? If someone did that to me, I just wouldn’t go back there.

Banks that employ people to use cold-calling to boost sales, and lying to the customer about the purpose of the call

I hang up on people who claim to be from my bank. If I have something I want to discuss with them, I make an appointment and go down there to speak with my financial advisor in person.

Used car salesmen that deliberately neglect to mention problems with cars

That’s why it’s illegal to buy a used car without having it fully inspected by an independant mechanic.

Supermarkets forcing down the price from suppliers by way of their position

Wheat Board, or Co-op anyone? If the suppliers don’t have the option of joining a co-op, they should. Collective bargaining works - if every farmer in the co-op says, “No, we can’t sell to you that low,” the supermarkets will either pay the reasonable price, or be stuck with the one rebel farmer who undercuts the co-op, and then can’t deliver the product on time because he has no staff to help him make the deliveries.

Newspapers reporting stories with sketchy facts just to boost sales

This is called “yellow journalism” - most people don’t take such magazines or newspapers seriously, and they soon gain a reputation as “rags.” There are lots of good newspapers around.

Sports goods firms allowing abuse to continue by their suppliers (Nike etc…)

Boycott them until every poor child on earth is in school full time, and getting a school lunch. There are plenty of shoe manufacturers who pay decent wages to professional shoe-makers.

Medical establishments providing contraception, abortion, and even sexual health care to people in pornography

Nobody is required to work there. You don’t live in some Communist country where some faceless bureaucrat places you in a job, and you have no choice about who you are going to work for.

Electronic goods makers putting out products with slight defects, and not properly testing them (Apple with the recent iMac/iTouch)

I’m betting heads rolled, over there.

Professional Accounting Firms with nights out getting drunk to increase team bonding (i.e good luck getting a promotion if you are not willing to join them), in addition to doing accounts for immoral businesses (abortion, strip clubs, sex shops)

So, don’t work there. There are plenty of advertising agencies like that, too, but I didn’t work for any of them - I worked for agencies where my time off was mine to spend as I pleased.

Manufacturing firms using cheaper, but dangerous raw materials (Mattel)

You are well aware that the group that was doing that has been fired - they were not operating in line with Mattel’s official policies.

Supermarkets collaborating to price fix ( + general occurrence of this phenomenon)

Conspiracy theory - the similar prices are caused by the fact that they all buy from the same farmers’ coops, and use roughly the same mark-up percentages.

Small building firms who do a number of shoddy jobs, close down the business, and open up under a new name.

Don’t buy from them. (Or work for them.)

Outsourcing of call centres, when the new recruits in India / South Africa / Other have no idea how to deal with complex enquiries and refuse to put one through to a manager.

I had a guy the other day with an American accent try to sell me a time-share in my own city. These people are going to get laughed out of business, I think.

Using fear to sell insurance.

In what sense? Most people buy insurance because they don’t want to leave their loved ones in poverty after they die.

Food manufacturers using deceptive sized boxes, and immoral advertising

Example, please? I’ve never encountered this one.

 

[Magicsilence]

MS–could you define your impression of a ‘sales assistant?’ Here in the states, it might mean something totally different.

Taken to mean:

those employed by the business to give information to customers, advise customers on choices, suggest products, and complete the transaction.

 

[homewardbound]

So, with regard to minimum wage jobs. There are a number of minimum wage jobs that probably would have very little moral conflict - like sweeping leaves, or washing cars. But, I am sure that does not mean all Catholics are forced into this avenue.

If one honestly believes that God gave them knowledge and intelligence, in what kind of a job may it be used unto God, and not unto profit max?

Well, thanks for telling me I a stupid just because I do not yet have the education to get anything above minimum wage!

And believe it or not, moral issues do come up. Most minimum wage workers are working and putting millions of dollars into their employers pocket, no?

Plus, cashiers must ring up items like condoms and birth control all the time…what should they do then? Quit their job? I mean they are just making the rich richer and having to allow contraceptives to be used.

Honestly, my only advice is to shoot yourself in the leg or something and get SSI. Because no matter what we do there are going to be moral issues at our place of employment. Its how we handle those situations that matters. Will we stand up for our beliefs or just do like everyone else? Any job anyone gets will be profiting others, who may not deserve it and be morally corrupt. So, really not working is the only option if you cannot be content with bringing all that you can to your job and spreading the love of Christ to others day by day.

I guess I just don’t get wanting to not have anything to o with the corrupt. If all Christians did nothing but run away from strife and hardship and hide in their own private businesses and such, how could we ever show those who need us most that we are good people? Good people don’t refuse to work with others simply because the same beliefs aren’t held. Good people work side by side with them and gradually show their employers and peers what a difference Christ has made in their lives.

Christ worked beside sinners, who are we to decide we’re better than that? Why ca we not do the same and simply be a testament to Christ when the moral issues come up.

Yes, I know this is all about finding a “moral” job…but if you truly can’t find a job you are willing to work in your field…that its really that bad morally, that you would be that miserable…then you are in the wrong field. This whole thread sounds like a superiority complex to me.

 

[vern_humphrey]

This is not productive.

The practice of cold-calling highlights the practices I am referring to.

If you have never experienced it, then I can see why you are arguing against me, but it is very real, and very present within much of the business world.

In Jesus Christ,

Cold-calling justifies painting all salesmen with that brush? And condemning business in general?

When it comes to morals, you seem to go very easy on yourself and very hard on others.

 

[whatevergirl]

Taken to mean:

those employed by the business to give information to customers, advise customers on choices, suggest products, and complete the transaction.

ah, ok. We don’t call them assistants here. They are called:

*producers, or sales associates, or sales reps, etc…

Your terminology falls into what we would call an admin/support role. At least for most businesses, anyways. Just checkin!

 

[whatevergirl]

MS–Be careful now. I am in sales, and I often have to ‘cold call’ on big companies…to get our foot in the door.

 

[Magicsilence]

Like what?

I go to the grocery store with my list and a certain amount of money. If I run out of money, I stop putting things in my cart and I go to the check-out. They usually get the same amount of money from me, each time I go. Or a little less. But never more.

Maybe not from you, but it obviously works on plenty of other people because they keep doing it.

An example here

Some do; not all. When’s the last time you saw a Winner’s ad with sex in it?

It is only an example of immorality coming through a firm. It is not meant to be the litmus test of immorality.

How stupid do they think we are? If someone did that to me, I just wouldn’t go back there.

Nevertheless, this is very real. Ever heard of the old

'oh, that’s too expensive for you sir, have a look at this ‘product’

Its basic psychology, but still used by some car salesmen.

I hang up on people who claim to be from my bank. If I have something I want to discuss with them, I make an appointment and go down there to speak with my financial advisor in person.

Ok, but the people are still doing these activities. The immorality is still present, even if you are not caught up by it.

That’s why it’s illegal to buy a used car without having it fully inspected by an independant mechanic.

Hmm, not illegal in England, but the principle is still there.

Wheat Board, or Co-op anyone? If the suppliers don’t have the option of joining a co-op, they should. Collective bargaining works - if every farmer in the co-op says, “No, we can’t sell to you that low,” the supermarkets will either pay the reasonable price, or be stuck with the one rebel farmer who undercuts the co-op, and then can’t deliver the product on time because he has no staff to help him make the deliveries.

Farmers shouldn’t have to protect themselves against this. It is another example of immorality in a different format.

This is called “yellow journalism” - most people don’t take such magazines or newspapers seriously, and they soon gain a reputation as “rags.” There are lots of good newspapers around.

Well over here these newspapers sell very well.

Boycott them until every poor child on earth is in school full time, and getting a school lunch. There are plenty of shoe manufacturers who pay decent wages to professional shoe-makers.

This a reaction to immorality, I was only showing that it existed.

Nobody is required to work there. You don’t live in some Communist country where some faceless bureaucrat places you in a job, and you have no choice about who you are going to work for.

Again, just an example that I was asked for.

I’m betting heads rolled, over there.

Perhaps, but it would only ever have been done for the purpose of increasing profit. Otherwise more stringent checks would have been completed.

So, don’t work there. There are plenty of advertising agencies like that, too, but I didn’t work for any of them - I worked for agencies where my time off was mine to spend as I pleased.

Well, I was going to work there (or similar), and it is one of the experiences that drove me to write this thread.

You are well aware that the group that was doing that has been fired - they were not operating in line with Mattel’s official policies.

The consequences are only reacting to immorality. It was only an example.

Conspiracy theory - the similar prices are caused by the fact that they all buy from the same farmers’ coops, and use roughly the same mark-up percentages.

Unfortunately not a conspiracy theory.

Don’t buy from them. (Or work for them.)

I wouldn’t because of their clear immorality. But it raises the question of whether it is ok to work for a business where immorality is less evident.

I had a guy the other day with an American accent try to sell me a time-share in my own city. These people are going to get laughed out of business, I think.

Well, it is a practice adopted by a significant majority of businesses to maintain cost efficiency in line with competitors.

In what sense? Most people buy insurance because they don’t want to leave their loved ones in poverty after they die.

Perhaps, but the use of fear to drive sales is not right.

Example, please? I’ve never encountered this one.

Have a look here

In Jesus Christ,

 

[Magicsilence]

Cold-calling justifies painting all salesmen with that brush? And condemning business in general?

When it comes to morals, you seem to go very easy on yourself and very hard on others.

From what did you draw this conclusion?