Morality of jobs and what am I supposed to DO for the rest of my days on this earth?

[Magicsilence]

I’m frankly a little disappointed in you.

What you have done (basically) is said that all business follow immoral practices (such as what you have listed) and therefore you cannot work for any business of any kind.

An immoral business, no. This thread is discerning in nature.

On that basis you also could not work for any non-profit organization or any government agency. Or do much of anything, for that matter.

I have said earlier in the thread that there is a clear difference between outright immorality and personal failings.

The fact is that you have committed some sort of calumny. Tarred all businesses with the brush of immoral practices.

I don’t believe I have been talking in absolutes.

Further, in some cases, some of these “practices” are merely some sort of sloppiness, or even that they may be guilty merely of imperfection versus outright immorality.

Yes, and if you read above, I addressed this point.

Further, some of the cases are vague (using sex, for example) global statements of no value in a specific sense.

I gave you a list of practices, is it not evident what ‘using sex in advertising’ means?

Furthermore, by suggesting that customers and or prospective employees have no choice, you are demonstrating something that may even be close to a passive-aggressive psychopathology.

I have said the exact opposite of this actually with regard to job choice, but I am questioning the extent to which consumers can choose products which involve no immorality.

I am also wondering if, in use of the expression “maximizing profits using immoral means” or words to that effect, you are echoing a Marxist lexicon to which perhaps you were exposed in school. I don’t know about that, but the language is certainly of a revolutionary sort. And is not expressive of the real world.

You mean it is not how people do business? I know.

If this issue wasn’t counter-cultural there would be no need for discussion.

In Jesus Christ,

 

[jmcrae]

I was offering no comment on the usefulness of such activities, only that they occurred, and that they were immoral in principle.

And relatively rare. Most companies are very honest, and they will teach you honest sales techniques.

Try Barclays bank on for size. Inexperienced, stupid? You decide. Quote from the article:

My great-grandfather warned us all about Barclay’s Bank - apparently they haven’t changed their tune. No one in my family has dealt with them in more than 100 years.

And just because they’ve been in business that long doesn’t mean their sales people are experienced. I bet they trade on inexperienced sales people who naively think they have to do anything for a buck - I’d be interested in seeing their staff turn-over rates - I’m guessing they’re pretty high.

 

[Magicsilence]

This is an untrue statement. At best it’s designed to be inflammatory.

Well, I believe it is certainly true in the U.K.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I was offering no comment on the usefulness of such activities, only that they occurred, and that they were immoral in principle.

The plural of “anecdote” is not “data.”

Try Barclays bank on for size. Inexperienced or stupid? You decide .

Quote from the article:

Nor does one person’s obviously biased judgement add up to a wholesale condemnation (or even an accurate description) of the company’s practices – let alone the industry’s.

 

[Magicsilence]

And relatively rare. Most companies are very honest, and they will teach you honest sales techniques.

I believe a firm may be immoral while remaining relatively honest, but I think that pure honesty surrounding sales is a reserve of a select few businesses.

My great-grandfather warned us all about Barclay’s Bank - apparently they haven’t changed their tune. No one in my family has dealt with them in more than 100 years.

And just because they’ve been in business that long doesn’t mean their sales people are experienced. I bet they trade on inexperienced sales people who naively think they have to do anything for a buck - I’d be interested in seeing their staff turn-over rates - I’m guessing they’re pretty high.

It is only proving that my claim is in fact very real, and I have no doubt that such activities happen in other banks too. Why, for example do they have such high charges for a failed transaction? Because morality has nothing to do with the way they operate, and the pursuit of money drives the business activities.

 

[Magicsilence]

The plural of “anecdote” is not “data.”

Nor does one person’s obviously biased judgement add up to a wholesale condemnation (or even an accurate description) of the company’s practices – let alone the industry’s.

Obviously biased?

“Whistleblower is on BBC1, tonight at 9pm.”

I actually watched this program. Her review was not biased in any way, and was an honest reflection of what she found inside the business.

And condemnation of an industry is certainly just, when immoral business practices hit the customer day in day out (like the scandal of bank charges the U.K is finally addressing).

 

[jmcrae]

I believe a firm may be immoral while remaining relatively honest, but I think that pure honesty surrounding sales is a reserve of a select few businesses.

More than a few. It is only companies that hire inexperienced sales people who suffer from this kind of “over-zealousness,” because the young people believe the stereotypes, and think that in order to sell, they have to do immoral things. Eventually, though, they do grow up. Really, they do.

It is only proving that my claim is in fact very real, and I have no doubt that such activities happen in other banks too. Why, for example do they have such high charges for a failed transaction? Because morality has nothing to do with the way they operate, and the pursuit of money drives the business activities.

There are also financial institutions such as ING Direct or Presidents’ Choice that don’t charge any service fees at all. You can always use them. Or, just stuff all your money into a mattress.

Realistically, just do the best you can to find a bank that will treat you fairly, and recognize that their goal is to keep you as a long-term customer.

I doubt that Barclay’s Bank has noticed the loss of business from my family, but if everyone who was poorly treated moved their money elsewhere, instead of just giving up and thinking that all banks are like that, they’d probably smarten up.

 

[Magicsilence]

More than a few. It is only companies that hire inexperienced sales people who suffer from this kind of “over-zealousness,” because the young people believe the stereotypes, and think that in order to sell, they have to do immoral things. Eventually, though, they do grow up. Really, they do.

I think you are oversimplifying the fact that this was part of corporate culture in one of the biggest banks in the world. If this is not reflective of the problem of immorality being present throughout the business world, I don’t know what is!

 

[Al_Masetti]

Yup. Definitely. You should join the Army.

I graduate from university in Summer 2008, and am finding it morally taxing to think about what kind of a job would be pleasing to the Lord.

Most, if not all major/minor businesses are focused on profit maximisation and therefore (at least indirectly) serving the Devil , and as an employee it would be expected that one work towards the same goal (the nature of a capitalist society rewards those that increase shareholder value with higher pay etc…).

When the very basis of potential work environments is morally bankrupt, can one really work there with a clear conscience? Where are we, as Christians, supposed to go? Self - employment? Surely it is not a universal panacea?

It seems being a Catholic and having a job that pays enough to eat and sleep somewhere are awfully incompatible in this day and age.

If anyone has any suggestions, or advice, it’d be greatly appreciated.

In Jesus Christ,

 

[vern_humphrey]

Obviously biased?

“Whistleblower is on BBC1, tonight at 9pm.”

And the BBC would never present a slanted program!

I actually watched this program. Her review was not biased in any way, and was an honest reflection of what she found inside the business.

And you checked her review for accuracy by using what independent source?

Or did you just assume it was unbiased because you agreed with it?

:
And condemnation of an industry is certainly just, when immoral business practices hit the customer day in day out (like the scandal of bank charges the U.K is finally addressing).

A comdemnation cannot be just when the accusations are unproven and based on a few anecdotes.

You seem to have abrogated to yourself the power to judge what is just and unjust – and your standards of evidence are pretty loose!

 

[vern_humphrey]

Yup. Definitely. You should join the Army.

I am reminded of a first sergeant of mine who was holding forth on a theory that with proper leadership, anyone could be made into a good soldier.

Another sergeant asked, “What about So-and-so,” naming a kid to whom the British would refer as a “Queen’s hard bargain.”

The first sergeant thought a minute and said, “We could issue him ear plugs and heavy shoes and teach him to clear minefields.”

 

[Magicsilence]

And the BBC would never present a slanted program!

No matter what the source, slant is always present.

And you checked her review for accuracy by using what independent source?

Or did you just assume it was unbiased because you agreed with it?

No, most of it was self evident. If you read the link I gave, she gives examples.

A comdemnation cannot be just when the accusations are unproven and based on a few anecdotes.

If you had seen the program, I think you would judge less harshly. This lady worked there for four months.

You seem to have abrogated to yourself the power to judge what is just and unjust – and your standards of evidence are pretty loose!

Abrogated?

My standards of evidence are only loose according to you! What gave you the power to decide?

 

[Magicsilence]

Yup. Definitely. You should join the Army.

I was going to join the army. Was with the air cadets (for 1-2 years), and ready to go into the RAF.

But instead, I went for higher education. Both I (and my parents) think it was the better option (for me).

 

[vern_humphrey]

If you had seen the program, I think you would judge less harshly. This lady worked there for four months.

Four whole months!?!?

My standards of evidence are only loose according to you! What gave you the power to decide?

Your standards of evidence are loose according to the generally accepted norms of gentlemanly debate.

 

[Magicsilence]

Four whole months!?!?

:yup:

Your standards of evidence are loose according to the generally accepted norms of gentlemanly debate.

:nope:

 

[Al_Masetti]

I was going to join the army. Was with the air cadets (for 1-2 years), and ready to go into the RAF.

But instead, I went for higher education. Both I (and my parents) think it was the better option (for me).

SAS, definitely.

PS, they do take college grads.

 

[whatevergirl]

Keep in mind that B2B is very different to individual consumer cold - calling. Moreover, there is a fine line between offering products because you believe them to be of potential use to a customer, and simply selling to increase profits. The focus is very different in the two.

In Jesus Christ,

That is a given, I would think…for example, I could never and would never do B2B sales in the tobacco industry. No way!

 

[jmcrae]

Four whole months!?!?

:yup:

You realize that the probationary period is six months, and the internship is one year, right? Four months isn’t even long enough to know the people she was working with very well, yet.

 

[Magicsilence]

You realize that the probationary period is six months, and the internship is one year, right? Four months isn’t even long enough to know the people she was working with very well, yet.

Yes, but in that four months she encountered immorality at a very low level, which doesn’t bode well for senior managers.

 

[Magicsilence]

That is a given, I would think…for example, I could never and would never do B2B sales in the tobacco industry. No way!

Glad to hear it Not long I think until the tobacco industry collapses. :byzsoc: