Morality of jobs and what am I supposed to DO for the rest of my days on this earth?

[vern_humphrey]

MS–Be careful now. I am in sales, and I often have to ‘cold call’ on big companies…to get our foot in the door.

And what’s wrong with that?

I have a display on my phone that gives me the number of the caller. If I don’t want to talk to someone I don’t know, I simply don’t answer.

 

[Magicsilence]

Well, thanks for telling me I a stupid just because I do not yet have the education to get anything above minimum wage!

Hold on, sweeping leaves and washing cars does not require much intelligence. My question was with reference to those kind of activities. Though it may be seen as such, I did not mean to employ someone earning minimum wage was not intelligent.

And believe it or not, moral issues do come up. Most minimum wage workers are working and putting millions of dollars into their employers pocket, no?

Plus, cashiers must ring up items like condoms and birth control all the time…what should they do then? Quit their job? I mean they are just making the rich richer and having to allow contraceptives to be used.

This is another angle that I am inquiring about. What do you think?

Honestly, my only advice is to shoot yourself in the leg or something and get SSI. Because no matter what we do there are going to be moral issues at our place of employment. Its how we handle those situations that matters. Will we stand up for our beliefs or just do like everyone else? Any job anyone gets will be profiting others, who may not deserve it and be morally corrupt. So, really not working is the only option if you cannot be content with bringing all that you can to your job and spreading the love of Christ to others day by day.

Well, these are the kinds of questions I am looking for answers to. It may be, that the lesser of two evils may be the principle needed in the current economic situation, maybe not.

I guess I just don’t get wanting to not have anything to o with the corrupt. If all Christians did nothing but run away from strife and hardship and hide in their own private businesses and such, how could we ever show those who need us most that we are good people? Good people don’t refuse to work with others simply because the same beliefs aren’t held. Good people work side by side with them and gradually show their employers and peers what a difference Christ has made in their lives.

This is definitely true, and I am glad you reminded me of it.

Christ worked beside sinners, who are we to decide we’re better than that? Why ca we not do the same and simply be a testament to Christ when the moral issues come up.

Beside, but not under them.

Yes, I know this is all about finding a “moral” job…but if you truly can’t find a job you are willing to work in your field…that its really that bad morally, that you would be that miserable…then you are in the wrong field. This whole thread sounds like a superiority complex to me.

It is just a search for answers.

Thankyou for your post!

In Jesus Christ,

 

[Magicsilence]

ah, ok. We don’t call them assistants here. They are called:

*producers, or sales associates, or sales reps, etc…

Your terminology falls into what we would call an admin/support role. At least for most businesses, anyways. Just checkin!

Clarification is always helpful

 

[vern_humphrey]

From what did you draw this conclusion?

From reading your posts – where you accuse other people of things like "Supermarkets collaborating to price fix ( + general occurrence of this phenomenon) " What a sweeping judgement that is!!

As I say, when it comes to morals, you seem to go very easy on yourself and very hard on others. It reminds me of the parable of rthe Pharasee and the Tax Collector – where the hypocritical Pharasee thanks God that he isn’t like that low-down tax collector.

 

[Magicsilence]

MS–Be careful now. I am in sales, and I often have to ‘cold call’ on big companies…to get our foot in the door.

Keep in mind that B2B is very different to individual consumer cold - calling. Moreover, there is a fine line between offering products because you believe them to be of potential use to a customer, and simply selling to increase profits. The focus is very different in the two.

In Jesus Christ,

 

[Magicsilence]

From reading your posts – where you accuse other people of things like "Supermarkets collaborating to price fix ( + general occurrence of this phenomenon) " What a sweeping judgement that is!!

As I say, when it comes to morals, you seem to go very easy on yourself and very hard on others. It reminds me of the parable of rthe Pharasee and the Tax Collector – where the hypocritical Pharasee thanks God that he isn’t like that low-down tax collector.

If you read my response to Jmcrae, I provided evidence of that claim. You can see it here if you would like

I have not claimed that all supermarkets do it, but that it is an example of immorality.

I am still confused why you think I am like the Pharisees. Have I given information on my discussions with my spiritual director? Or spoken about my perception of my sins?

Sinner I am and readily admitted, but a little charity would be nice.

 

[vern_humphrey]

If you read my response to Jmcrae, I provided evidence of that claim. You can see it here if you would like

I have not claimed that all supermarkets do it, but that it is an example of immorality.

You said, and I quote:

Supermarkets collaborating to price fix ( + general occurrence of this phenomenon)

I am still confused why you think I am like the Pharisees. Have I given information on my discussions with my spiritual director? Or spoken about my perception of my sins?

You presume to be somehow chosen to make blanket condemnations of businesses, and by extension of those who work in them.

Sinner I am and readily admitted, but a little charity would be nice.

Perhaps if you were more charitable and less judgemental, you wouild get more charity. But you cannot tar whole professions, businesses and classes of people without getting a little spattered on yourself.

 

[Conservative]

I graduate from university in Summer 2008, and am finding it morally taxing to think about what kind of a job would be pleasing to the Lord.

Most, if not all major/minor businesses are focused on profit maximisation and therefore (at least indirectly) serving the Devil , and as an employee it would be expected that one work towards the same goal (the nature of a capitalist society rewards those that increase shareholder value with higher pay etc…).

When the very basis of potential work environments is morally bankrupt, can one really work there with a clear conscience? Where are we, as Christians, supposed to go? Self - employment? Surely it is not a universal panacea?

It seems being a Catholic and having a job that pays enough to eat and sleep somewhere are awfully incompatible in this day and age.

If anyone has any suggestions, or advice, it’d be greatly appreciated.

In Jesus Christ,

Interestingly, your question about the morality of jobs has been a dilemma of mine for years - and based on your graduate year, I’d say I have a few employment years experience. You ask about companies who are focused on profit. If they aren’t, they’d have no reason to exist. Aren’t you looking for some profit (after deductions) beyond paying your bills? (i.e. something to save - if not to become a Rockefeller or a Trump). In business, profit/gain is their goal.

You’re centering on the wrong thing. The questions is which companies do you look to for employment? That is your concern where God / religion is concerned. What do they produce or foster?

To keep within God’s teachings, to my mind, I’ve had to limit myself to companies that don’t produce things God wouldn’t approve of: pharmaceutical companies who make contraceptives; tobacco companies who foster products that kill or endanger lives; publishing companies, particularly those who publish anti-Christian anything; the media, newspapers, TV, film companies, etc. (nuff said there); divorce lawyers, physicians and those hospitals, medical institutions or planned parenthood-type organizations who will unabashedly promote abortion, or any company who you may have seen on TV advertising their product the wrong way.

***“By their fruits ye shall know them.” *** That’s what the Bible tells us. That’s your guiding rule. No company is in the business to just break even. Trust me, the above narrows the job search significantly but if you’re worried about who serves the Evil One, think about what they do for their profit - not how much they make. (While their profit margin reflects in your paycheck, it’s their success in producing a product, which might endanger our souls.) Put it in prospective. If we work for the wrong companies, we’re helping them mass produce the wrong products/service.

Best of luck - it’s a tough job market,
God bless you -
Conservative

 

[Magicsilence]

You said, and I quote:

 

[vern_humphrey]

What I had in mind with the word general, was the application of the activity to other industries, and not a blanket condemnation of supermarkets. With this in mind, I think my position in line with the facts.

What facts? I’ve asked you to describe the practices you condemn, and give us hard data on how prevallent they are – and to date, you have not.

Have I ever stated this? I am asking questions, not trying to give the answers.

That’s a little disengenuous. You ask many of these “questions” in a manner that amounts to a sweeping indictment of whole professions and businesses.

I am not trying to tar anyone, but if the discussion has one conclusion, inevitably someone will be hurt by its implications.

Kind of like saying, “When I fired that gun, I wasn’t trying to kill anyone, but inevitably someone will be hurt by its impact.”

 

[jmcrae]

Keep in mind that B2B is very different to individual consumer cold - calling. Moreover, there is a fine line between offering products because you believe them to be of potential use to a customer, and simply selling to increase profits. The focus is very different in the two.

In Jesus Christ,

Again, an example of lack of real-world experience.

There is absolutely no point in trying to sell someone something they don’t want. It is a complete waste of time, and, far from “maximising profits” you are simply lowering the value of your hourly labour, because of the wasted time. If the potential customer says “No,” your response should be to say, “thank you for your time,” and then move on to the next potential customer. Don’t waste time trying to talk people into buying things they don’t want, because first of all, they aren’t usually going to change their minds (and if you somehow “con” them into buying this thing that they don’t really want, you’ll likely never hear from them again, plus the bad publicity that they will give you), and secondly, because if you make a pest of yourself, they will simply decide that you are an idiot, and they won’t want to do business with you in the future, even when you have something that they want.

 

[Magicsilence]

What facts? I’ve asked you to describe the practices you condemn, and give us hard data on how prevallent they are – and to date, you have not.

That’s a little disengenuous. You ask many of these “questions” in a manner that amounts to a sweeping indictment of whole professions and businesses.

Kind of like saying, “When I fired that gun, I wasn’t trying to kill anyone, but inevitably someone will be hurt by its impact.”

If I have come across as holier-than-thou or as condemning others, I apologise.

 

[Magicsilence]

Again, an example of lack of real-world experience.

There is absolutely no point in trying to sell someone something they don’t want.

jmcrae, if you cannot see the contradiction of these two sentences in light of the practices of modern business, I am honestly lost.

It is a complete waste of time, and, far from “maximising profits” you are simply lowering the value of your hourly labour, because of the wasted time. If the potential customer says “No,” your response should be to say, “thank you for your time,” and then move on to the next potential customer. Don’t waste time trying to talk people into buying things they don’t want, because first of all, they aren’t usually going to change their minds (and if you somehow “con” them into buying this thing that they don’t really want, you’ll likely never hear from them again, plus the bad publicity that they will give you), and secondly, because if you make a pest of yourself, they will simply decide that you are an idiot, and they won’t want to do business with you in the future, even when you have something that they want.

This is what happens, and yet it is still massively prevalent.

 

[jmcrae]

jmcrae, if you cannot see the contradiction of these two sentences in light of the practices of modern business, I am honestly lost.

I simply mean, if you have ever worked in sales, then you know that you can’t sell someone something he doesn’t want. It just doesn’t work. Do people try - yes. Do they succeed - no.

This is what happens, and yet it is still massively prevalent.

There are a lot of inexperienced/stupid salesmen around - and they will go broke. If you want to “maximise profits,” you have to be in business to serve the customers - there is no other way to succeed.

 

[PaulDupre]

I find great satisfaction in contributing to the success of the company I work for. When we are profitable, the employees get raises and we hire more people who can provide for their families and gain the dignity of honest employment. Nothing wrong with that.

God bless,
Paul

 

[vern_humphrey]

I find great satisfaction in contributing to the success of the company I work for. When we are profitable, the employees get raises and we hire more people who can provide for their families and gain the dignity of honest employment. Nothing wrong with that.

God bless,
Paul

Absolutely. Or as someone else put it, if you don’t like “rich” people, go ask a poor man to give you a job.

Businesses, profitable, well-managed businesses, provide the jobs the rest of us depend on for our livelihood.

 

[Al_Masetti]

I’m frankly a little disappointed in you.

What you have done (basically) is said that all business follow immoral practices (such as what you have listed) and therefore you cannot work for any business of any kind.

On that basis you also could not work for any non-profit organization or any government agency. Or do much of anything, for that matter.

You might want to do a Google search for “Scrupulous Anonymous.”

The fact is that you have committed some sort of calumny. Tarred all businesses with the brush of immoral practices.

Further, in some cases, some of these “practices” are merely some sort of sloppiness, or even that they may be guilty merely of imperfection versus outright immorality.

Further, some of the cases are vague (using sex, for example) global statements of no value in a specific sense.

You as a customer have a responsibility to fully check out whatever it is you are buying before you buy it. The world is a giant garage sale and you the customer have the cash. Cash is king. The customer can pick and choose or elect not to buy at all.

No one says you need the latest electronic doodad.

Furthermore, by suggesting that customers and or prospective employees have no choice, you are demonstrating something that may even be close to a passive-aggressive psychopathology.

I am also wondering if, in use of the expression “maximizing profits using immoral means” or words to that effect, you are echoing a Marxist lexicon to which perhaps you were exposed in school. I don’t know about that, but the language is certainly of a revolutionary sort. And is not expressive of the real world.

Ok -

Major food stores using underhand tactics to temporarily boost sales

Clothes stores using sex in advertising (year round)

Retail stores with sales assistants that are trained to increase the amount customers spend, regardless of needs

Banks that employ people to use cold-calling to boost sales, and lying to the customer about the purpose of the call

Used car salesmen that deliberately neglect to mention problems with cars

Supermarkets forcing down the price from suppliers by way of their position

Newspapers reporting stories with sketchy facts just to boost sales

Sports goods firms allowing abuse to continue by their suppliers (Nike etc…)

Medical establishments providing contraception, abortion, and even sexual health care to people in pornography

Electronic goods makers putting out products with slight defects, and not properly testing them (Apple with the recent iMac/iTouch)

Professional Accounting Firms with nights out getting drunk to increase team bonding (i.e good luck getting a promotion if you are not willing to join them), in addition to doing accounts for immoral businesses (abortion, strip clubs, sex shops)

Manufacturing firms using cheaper, but dangerous raw materials (Mattel)

Supermarkets collaborating to price fix ( + general occurrence of this phenomenon)

Small building firms who do a number of shoddy jobs, close down the business, and open up under a new name.

Outsourcing of call centres, when the new recruits in India / South Africa / Other have no idea how to deal with complex enquiries and refuse to put one through to a manager.

Using fear to sell insurance.

Food manufacturers using deceptive sized boxes, and immoral advertising

This list is endless!

 

[Al_Masetti]

Our economy is a free-market economy (with a lot of government intervention).

That use of the word “capitalist” is a potentially inflammatory rhetorical expression.

The example was really just to illustrate a point.

Our economy is capitalist, and wherever, whenever, however possible this means the maximisation of profits. This is the fundamental goal of business, and is completely contrary to our Catholic Faith.

Holding clients, building up good relationships etc… are all the other side of the capitalist coin, namely securing future customers for… you guessed it, the maximisation of profits.

The problem I am facing is that, almost wherever one works, it is not unto Jesus Christ, but money, and as an employee of that business, you are inevitably entangled and asked to do things to that goal.

 

[Al_Masetti]

As a result, most jobs involve loose morals and questionable activities aimed at making money.

This is an untrue statement. At best it’s designed to be inflammatory.

 

[Magicsilence]

I simply mean, if you have ever worked in sales, then you know that you can’t sell someone something he doesn’t want. It just doesn’t work. Do people try - yes. Do they succeed - no.

I was offering no comment on the usefulness of such activities, only that they occurred, and that they were immoral in principle.

There are a lot of inexperienced/stupid salesmen around - and they will go broke. If you want to “maximise profits,” you have to be in business to serve the customers - there is no other way to succeed.

Try Barclays bank on for size. Inexperienced or stupid? You decide .

Quote from the article:

As one of those trainees, I listened in horror as our instructor treated the customers of one of Britain’s High Street banks with such contempt.
The pressure to sell encouraged us to persuade customers to buy expensive services (such as specialised bank accounts) which they didn’t want.