Morality of joining the ACLU

[Elf01]

I’m not sure how this relates to abortion. I’m not interested in what-a-abouts though.

I’m applying the it will be done in unsafe conditions argument to another situation to see if it remains valid.

 

[D.Erasmus.R]

I don’t think it’s moral to have adolescents marrying because, early marriage might ruin their chances of a good career & lead to financial insecurity, they may lack the maturity to knowingly consent to marriage, easily pressured into marriage, & because their bodies aren’t ready for safe childbirth.

It’s to particularly immoral to marry adolescents to much older adults because even someone who’s only just an adult(18yo) can be easily dominated & manipulated by an older adult(26yo), hence either easily pressured into marrying or getting into an unequal relationship.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

You’re entitled to your opinion, except that someone who is 16 or 17 years old is not an “adolescent” and an adult of 18 or more has the full legal rights of an adult, including voting, marrying, incurring their own debts, etc.

 

[blackforest]

As far as abortion goes, I’m not sure I’d say they are decidedly pro-abortion, hear me out. There are underlying issues such as poverty, access to health care, and assistive aid that are major factors in abortion being chosen. They certainly fight against that.

And yet they believe it’s perfectly acceptable to choose to kill an infant born to a failed abortion. That’s just fanatical.

Another peeve of mine is that they spread themselves too thin. I get their emails, (although they send so many that I’ve taken a break), and they’ve seriously taken on nearly every single social justice issue of the Democratic Party Platform. There are already a kazillion other organizations that are pro-choice and pro-LGBTQ equality.

The ACLU could accomplish so much more, (and earn a lot more supporters) if it would focus on its traditional unique niche - e.g. defending free speech, religious freedom, and opposing government torture and Fourth Amendment violations.

 

[PJH_74]

And yet they believe it’s perfectly acceptable to choose to kill an infant born to a failed abortion.

There’s a strong chance that is some sort of extreme what-if interpretation of a law then cherry picked. Provide me a mainstream news source for this assertion.

they’ve seriously taken on nearly every single social justice issue

Because those are the laws against the self-determination and equality that are being put out there. Some of these are laws fully intended to be challenge. Some of them are plays to the base done in extra ordinary legislative sessions. It was less than 100 years ago that women voting was considered excessive liberalism and there are many more.

 

[blackforest]

There’s a strong chance that is some sort of extreme what-if interpretation of a law then cherry picked. Provide me a mainstream news source for this assertion.

I cited a link directly from the ACLU upthread.

Because those are the laws against the self-determination and equality that are being put out there. Some of these are laws fully intended to be challenge. Some of them are plays to the base done in extra ordinary legislative sessions. It was less than 100 years ago that women voting was considered excessive liberalism and there are many more.

It’s not the causes in and of themselves. I don’t like that the ACLU is spending valuable and limited resources reinventing the wheel with other causes that are already well-covered.

 

[YourNameHere]

The ACLU at one time or another has supported left-wing and right-wing groups.

 

[YourNameHere]

Over the years, the ACLU has supported many different groups when it comes rights.

 

[YourNameHere]

Joining the ACLU is not a moral issue. It is a political issue.

 

[blackforest]

Joining the ACLU is not a moral issue. It is a political issue.

Out of curiosity, are you pro-life? Do you consider abortion a human rights issue, or just a political one?

I’m not going for a personal attack here, honest. I just often wonder if pro-lifers take abortion as seriously as other atrocities.

I can’t imagine discussing an organization and saying, "Sure, they march with the KKK/traffic children/kill defenseless puppies from time to time. But hey, they do a lot of good things, too . . . "

 

[PJH_74]

I cited a link directly from the ACLU upthread.

So I read the bill:

breathes or has a beating heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles, regardless of whether the umbilical cord has been cut

This is a fairly extreme attempt at what are known as “6 week” beating heart abortion bills. It’s basically attempting to virtually outlaw abortion because women very rarely are aware of her pregnancy at that stage. It also is attempting to universally change every Colorado statute in the process. As a result you can accuse a person of murder based some very hard to establish criteria.

So yes, in my opinion, this represents the type of law I was referring to. They opposed what was a sweeping end run attempt against RvW and put those involved, including those involved in medically necessary and rape instances, on very shaky legal grounds. What always bothers me about these laws is that they never even attempt to hold the father legally responsible. It’s always the mother holding the legal, moral, and derision bag. This is why RvW exists.

 

[blackforest]

No, you’re reading the thing. This is what I posted. HB16-1146: Born Alive Infant Protection Act | ACLU of Colorado

They’ve also consistently stood behind the choice to partially deliver a baby and then crush his/her skull in utero. ACLU Praises Decision to Strike "Partial-Birth" Abortion Plan | ACLU of Ohio

 

[SteelArchangel]

Catholics may not join the ACLU.

 

[PJH_74]

No, you’re reading the thing. This is what I posted

No, I checked, this is the same bill number. As for the “partial birth” laws, they oppose them on the grounds that the wording is intentionally vague. These laws goal’s are to essentially to outlaw abortion based on making a legal activity potentially illegal because the definitions are so fussy.
These definitions of legal personhood are fleeting and difficult to document.

Again, I’m no fan of abortion, but make a real attempt to address the social issues at the heart of the issue and find a way to make the father responsible too.. Then we might talk about outlawing tactics.

 

[Elf01]

Again, I’m no fan of abortion, but make a real attempt to address the social issues at the heart of the issue and find a way to make the father responsible too..

The father has to pay child support.

 

[blackforest]

Well, the saying holds that to make an omelet, (protected abortion rights all 40 weeks for any reason whatsoever), you have to break some eggs, (late-term and born-alive babies). Hopefully the ACLU is grateful for these babies getting sacrificed on the altar of their cause.

But the OP is Catholic and wanted to know if it was moral to support the ACLU. In light of their bioethical views, I would not be comfortable providing financial support to them.

 

[PJH_74]

The father has to pay child support.

…assuming he sticks around, pays, has the mans to pay, can be proven to be the father, and can be taken to court if necessary over it (a cost not always an option for those who need it most). The mother is stuck with the baby and gets the vast majority of the moral blaming. Anyway, when’s the last you heard anything like this mentioned in pro-life rallies, campaigns, etc?

Hopefully the ACLU is grateful for these babies getting sacrificed on the altar of their cause. But the OP is Catholic and wanted to know if it was moral to support the ACLU. In light of their bioethical views, I would not be comfortable providing financial support to them.

It’s not all or nothing, but pushing the abortion limit to 6-weeks effectively makes it nothing. You must remember, I’d like to remove any reason for an abortion. However the reality is you will not stop them for the many reasons I listed previously. Making abortions illegal, or virtually so, is the easy way out. Fighting the root causes, while having a workable standard for a legal abortion to allow its regulation, will in my view save the most babies and improve the social situations around it.

As for the OPs original question, it’s up to the person I believe. However I can see, as I’ve laid out, that there is an arguable position to supporting their causes. I don’t see any absolute moral high ground here. While the purest in principle, standing for an absolute ban on abortion is not much different than armchair quarterbacking. Playing in the game might get more dirty, but I think the outcome will be better.

 

[blackforest]

Again, I’m trying to keep this thread focused on the OPs question. If the ACLU does indeed have the view that it’s OK to sacrifice born and partially born babies in order to retain abortion rights at any level of development, then for your average Catholic, this would not be the organization to which to direct one’s funds.

 

[Elf01]

…assuming he sticks around, pays, has the mans to pay, can be proven to be the father, and can be taken to court if necessary over it (a cost not always an option for those who need it most). The mother is stuck with the baby and gets the vast majority of the moral blaming. Anyway, when’s the last you heard anything like this mentioned in pro-life rallies, campaigns, etc?

What else do you suggest assuming every effort is made to find the father and mske him pay?

He may not even know he is a father.

The mother does not have that excuse.

I’d like to remove any reason for an abortion. However the reality is you will not stop them for the many reasons I listed previously. Making abortions illegal, or virtually so, is the easy way out. Fighting the root causes, while having a workable standard for a legal abortion to allow its regulation , will in my view save the most babies and improve the social situations around it.

Yet more proof that those who say we should focus on other issues really just want to keep abortion legal.

 

[PJH_74]

Yet more proof that those who say we should focus on other issues really just want to keep abortion legal.

Then what is your solution to absolutely make sure abortions never happen? Mind you I am Pro Life, but l can’t ignore reality. I believe minding reality is most effective in practice and accounting for this in a broken world is functionally the most moral call.