Morality of Kissing

[llenadegracia]

Very sensible responses in this thread.

A game-changer for my boyfriend and I was honesty. As we got more serious in our relationship, it was really natural and easy to desire physical intimacy only appropriate in marriage. So for a short time we would kiss just a moment too long and then wag our finger at the other saying, No! We aren’t going to do that! You shouldn’t have kissed me that long!

We essentially tried to blame each other for trying to push things further. We physically very much wanted that, and emotionally it feels so easy to more physical affection to someone you love. But again, not appropriate for our unmarried selves…and we know that!

So instead, we eventually sat down and talked about how we both want to have a more physical relationship. We acknowledged it. We each took responsibility for it. It really changed our relationship. By acknowledging that we wanted more physical intimacy, we allowed ourselves to say verbally: Yes, I want a physical relationship with you. But because I love you, I am not going to pursue that until marriage.

For us, it just took a very frank conversation to get us on the right track. We needed to verbally say those things to each other. It allowed us a way to say “I love you!” that wasn’t physical and avoid the blame-game. Hopefully that makes sense.

 

[chuck001]

The CC says, to put yourself in a near occasion of mortal sin, is a mortal sin.
Could kissing put either under thoughts or actions that are mortal sin under the three conditions,?
The answer is, kissing could put either under thoughts or actions that are mortal sin, and hence your dilemma can be a mortal sin under the three conditions.

Chastity is to observed according to state in life. As you are both still single people in the single vocation you must follow chastity according to the single vocation.

I would argue no kissing or physical contact.

Otherwise where are the boundaries, where is the limit, what is too much,
How many kisses is a sin? Unanswerable question, because truthfully just one could put either in thoughts or actions that are a mortal sin,

One of the things to confess in examinations of conscience in most booklets is: “Immodest touches” as a mortal sin under the three conditions, can kissing fall under this category of sin against the sixth commandment, this question answers that: Could one kiss incite a person to lustful thoughts that under the three conditions are a mortal sin? Yes one kiss can incite someone to lustful thoughts that are a mortal sin under the three conditions and the CC says it is a mortal sin, to not avoid near occasions of mortal sin.

Even though I am in RCIA, please excuse my inexperience but I would like to respond to your view on mortal sin, if I may. From what I am learning so far, mortal sin isn’t something you just fall into. It has been taught to us that mortal sin is a deliberate choice to engage in an act of grave matter with free will (basically grave sin without temptation). You say “to put yourself in a near occasion of mortal sin, is a mortal sin.” If this were the case, we would be engaging in mortal sin commuting to work and look up to see a provocative billboard of a woman in a bikini with a sexual pose. Therefore, we should have someone drive us to work while we are blindfolded? I think the “near occasion” you mention, given my example, would be giving the billboard a second look and entertaining some sort of fantasy. I certainly don’t mean to stir any debate but God never intended for us to live in scrupulosity constantly fearing we have committed a mortal sin. It has been said that if you are seriously worrying about having committed a mortal sin, chances are you have not. I welcome constructive feedback.

 

[EasterJoy]

Even though I am in RCIA, please excuse my inexperience but I would like to respond to your view on mortal sin, if I may. From what I am learning so far, mortal sin isn’t something you just fall into. It has been taught to us that mortal sin is a deliberate choice to engage in an act of grave matter with free will (basically grave sin without temptation). You say “to put yourself in a near occasion of mortal sin, is a mortal sin.” If this were the case, we would be engaging in mortal sin commuting to work and look up to see a provocative billboard of a woman in a bikini with a sexual pose. Therefore, we should have someone drive us to work while we are blindfolded? I think the “near occasion” you mention, given my example, would be giving the billboard a second look and entertaining some sort of fantasy. I certainly don’t mean to stir any debate but God never intended for us to live in scrupulosity constantly fearing we have committed a mortal sin. It has been said that if you are seriously worrying about having committed a mortal sin, chances are you have not. I welcome constructive feedback.

A near occasion of mortal sin is a little different than other occasions of sin.

In a secular sense, for instance, you can see that it is one thing for a typical person to have one unplanned drink on the way home from work, while it is quite another for a person in recovery from alcoholism to do that. For the alcoholic, one drink is a near occasion of a relapse. For each of us, there are also near occasions of serious sins that we may be “committed” to avoiding “in theory,” but that we really don’t accept as seriously wrong for us.

Remember that Eve knew quite well that eating the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was a serious matter. “You shall not eat it or even touch it, or else you will die” (Gen. 3:4) When Eve chose to believe that this prohibition was not a serious matter, it did not cease being a serious matter.

Notice, too, that the prohibition is not to “even touch it.” That is avoidance of the near occasion of sin. We are to stay out of situations in which we are reasonably likely to entertain the temptation to commit mortal sin, not every situation where it is *remotely possible *that we might do so. You are right: that would not be possible, weak persons that we are.

Avoiding near occasions of sin does require us to have the humility to admit that we are not always as strong as everyone else we know. We have to honestly assess what is a serious temptation for us, personally. That line is not the same for everyone, which is why the Church does not get extremely specific about these matters. (For Judas, for instance, the greatest temptation to serious sin was greed, whereas for Peter it was fear of harm.)

 

[chuck001]

A near occasion of mortal sin is a little different than other occasions of sin.

In a secular sense, for instance, you can see that it is one thing for a typical person to have one unplanned drink on the way home from work, while it is quite another for a person in recovery from alcoholism to do that. For the alcoholic, one drink is a near occasion of a relapse. For each of us, there are also near occasions of serious sins that we may be “committed” to avoiding “in theory,” but that we really don’t accept as seriously wrong for us.

Remember that Eve knew quite well that eating the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was a serious matter. “You shall not eat it or even touch it, or else you will die” (Gen. 3:4) When Eve chose to believe that this prohibition was not a serious matter, it did not cease being a serious matter.

Notice, too, that the prohibition is not to “even touch it.” That is avoidance of the near occasion of sin. We are to stay out of situations in which we are reasonably likely to entertain the temptation to commit mortal sin, not every situation where it is *remotely possible *that we might do so. You are right: that would not be possible, weak persons that we are.

Avoiding near occasions of sin does require us to have the humility to admit that we are not always as strong as everyone else we know. We have to honestly assess what is a serious temptation for us, personally. That line is not the same for everyone, which is why the Church does not get extremely specific about these matters. (For Judas, for instance, the greatest temptation to serious sin was greed, whereas for Peter it was fear of harm.)

I agree with you 99%. What I would like to challenge is the notion of the grave matter which I do not believe was eating the apple. You insinuate that Eve makes the choice of what is grave versus what is not. I don’t believe kissing with purity of heart is the same degree as Eve touching the apple before the bite. I would run the parallels like this: 1. kissing with purity = knowing the apple is there (no problem) 2. making out = touching the apple (entering mortal sin) 3. Intercourse = biting the apple (committing mortal sin thus severing the grace of God).

 

[EasterJoy]

I agree with you 99%. What I would like to challenge is the notion of the grave matter which I do not believe was eating the apple. You insinuate that Eve makes the choice of what is grave versus what is not. I don’t believe kissing with purity of heart is the same degree as Eve touching the apple before the bite. I would run the parallels like this: 1. kissing with purity = knowing the apple is there (no problem) 2. making out = touching the apple (entering mortal sin) 3. Intercourse = biting the apple (committing mortal sin thus severing the grace of God).

The Lord made it very clear that eating the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil or even* touching it* was seriously forbidden. There is no “I think” about it. That is the whole point of the story.

I don’t think kissing outside of marriage is a near occasion of grave sin,* per se*. What is far more important is that the Church does not teach that, either. I think getting time alone in an empty house for a long evening of kissing and whatever else might occur to the couple to do is a near occasion of grave sin. The couple could “intend” to stop short of grave offenses against chastity, but believing that they’re going to manage that on a regular basis is just stupid. Doing stupid things that you have to know are stupid because you think you’re stronger than everyone else is a sin against humility, too, let’s just be honest about that. Pride goeth before the fall…

 

[chuck001]

The Lord made it very clear that eating the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil or even* touching it* was seriously forbidden. There is no “I think” about it. That is the whole point of the story.

I don’t think kissing outside of marriage is a near occasion of grave sin,* per se*. What is far more important is that the Church does not teach that, either. I think getting time alone in an empty house for a long evening of kissing and whatever else might occur to the couple to do is a near occasion of grave sin. The couple could “intend” to stop short of grave offenses against chastity, but believing that they’re going to manage that on a regular basis is just stupid. Doing stupid things that you have to know are stupid because you think you’re stronger than everyone else is a sin against humility, too, let’s just be honest about that. Pride goeth before the fall…

I certainly understand your position however I do respectfully disagree. For the sake of argument, it is important to know that God did not intend for us to live under strict contextual rules. Most everyone understands that there lines which can be crossed when you make a conscious decision to cross that line and enter into the territory of mortal sin and thus we need not discuss any further. With that said, we all have our own individual ability to determine what that line is. For example, someone suffering from addiction to pornography would clearly be crossing the line much sooner then someone who has no struggles with any kind of sexual temptation. The same could be said for someone who is recovering from alcoholism who wants to open a bar once they are pure again vs someone who hates alcohol and has never had a drink decides to open a bar for the sake of bettering their family. Ground rules for how we should live are very general thus allowing us to use the free will God gave us to make smart decisions.

 

[EasterJoy]

I certainly understand your position however I do respectfully disagree. For the sake of argument, it is important to know that God did not intend for us to live under strict contextual rules. Most everyone understands that there lines which can be crossed when you make a conscious decision to cross that line and enter into the territory of mortal sin and thus we need not discuss any further. With that said, we all have our own individual ability to determine what that line is. For example, someone suffering from addiction to pornography would clearly be crossing the line much sooner then someone who has no struggles with any kind of sexual temptation. The same could be said for someone who is recovering from alcoholism who wants to open a bar once they are pure again vs someone who hates alcohol and has never had a drink decides to open a bar for the sake of bettering their family. Ground rules for how we should live are very general thus allowing us to use the free will God gave us to make smart decisions.

Sorry, but I don’t see where we differ. Perhaps I think there are more people who are a bit proud when it comes to gauging what situations will realistically lead them to serious sin than you do, but to say that is a real difference seems to be splitting straws.

 

[chuck001]

Sorry, but I don’t see where we differ. Perhaps I think there are more people who are a bit proud when it comes to gauging what situations will realistically lead them to serious sin than you do, but to say that is a real difference seems to be splitting straws.

The difference is where the line is drawn. You stated in the post in which I first responded “I would argue no kissing or physical contact.” If you choose that for yourself, that’s fine. But as humans we are inclined to show affection to those whom we care deeply for on an intimate level most appropriately in a committed relationship with intent to marry. Now, I do not believe it is good to go around kissing people for the heck of it, that would be grounds for bad news. But again, in a committed relationship with genuine intent to marry, nothing wrong with physical contact outside of the sexual arena.

 

[Momof9inFL]

I think some long, deep kissing is necessary, if you are committed to each other. You have to show attraction and doing that will strengthen your relationship. Kissing is wonderful. And joyful and fun. You need it.
If you’re mature and loving, you can handle any temptation. But kissing is beautiful!!!

 

[EasterJoy]

The difference is where the line is drawn. You stated in the post in which I first responded “I would argue no kissing or physical contact.” If you choose that for yourself, that’s fine. But as humans we are inclined to show affection to those whom we care deeply for on an intimate level most appropriately in a committed relationship with intent to marry. Now, I do not believe it is good to go around kissing people for the heck of it, that would be grounds for bad news. But again, in a committed relationship with genuine intent to marry, nothing wrong with physical contact outside of the sexual arena.

When did I ever say “no kissing or physical contact”? I think I’ve said over and over that kissing is not wrong, per se. What constitutes “a kiss” is an extremely broad range, but the vast majority of couples exchange kisses at some point before they get engaged, let alone before they marry. This is not forbidden.

 

[EasterJoy]

I think some long, deep kissing is necessary, if you are committed to each other. You have to show attraction and doing that will strengthen your relationship. Kissing is wonderful. And joyful and fun. You need it… kissing is beautiful!!!

Yes, it is worth recognizing that there is some value in chaste and yet physical displays of affection before marriage. There is such a thing, and it does have real value.

There are some couples, however, who know quite well or have had enough experience that they ought to be able to admit that they cannot handle anything like “long, deep kissing” without falling into some serious sin. Chastity needs to be protected, and for some couples that means they really need to be careful about the kind of opportunities for rash decisions they give themselves.

If you’re mature and loving, you can handle any temptation.

No. If you’re mature and loving, you take the reality that you are only human very seriously. You show affection in ways that are both warm and chaste. Mileage will vary; honesty is required.