Morality of Marijuana Use

[melensdad]

IT IS ILLEGAL AND THEREFORE IMMORAL.

Let me pose this. And let me preface it by stating that the Catechism of the Catholic Church clearly states we are obligated to defend our own lives and the lives of our families, that said, I live in Indiana, at the Indiana/Illiniois state line. In Indiana it is LEGAL to own and carry a concealed handgun for protection of yourself & your family. Across the roadway, my Illinios neighbors live where it is ILLEGAL to do the very same.

Are you saying that defending your life in Illinois is IMMORAL while defending your life in Indiana is MORAL?

Or are you saying that the CCC can only be used to apply morality in lands where it is legal to apply that morality Clearly it is moral to defend your life in Indiana but illegal to defend it in Chicago so therefore the CCC is flawed?

Or, within the state of Illinois, in Will County (the southern border of Chicago) it is legal to have a handgun in your house to defend yourself, but it is Illegal to do the same within boundaries of Chicago. The mere possession of the gun in Chicago can get you arrested. So a perfectly legal item on one side of the street is an illegal item that will get you jailed on the other side of the street.

Is it your argument that MORALITY is decided by your physical location?

There is no real reason for us to make it legal, knowing the negative effects it can have on people. There is no real benefit to making it legal.

What is the benefit to keeping it ILLEGAL?

While there may be some ‘negative effects’ on some people, the entire illegal industry of sales and distribution of marijuana would be eliminated if legalized, regulated, taxed & controlled and that would clearly have ‘positive effects’ on society.

 

[FLCathMom]

Are we required to obey unjust laws?

We are required to obey all laws that do not prohibit us from practicing our faith. Smoking marijuana is not something we are required to do as Catholics, so we are to obey any laws pertaining to its use. We are required, for example to preserve and protect life, and so we should not obey laws that go against that.

 

[Guldenat]

We are required to obey all laws that do not prohibit us from practicing our faith. Smoking marijuana is not something we are required to do as Catholics, so we are to obey any laws pertaining to its use. We are required, for example to preserve and protect life, and so we should not obey laws that go against that.

My understanding was we did not have to obey laws if they were unjust. Though if you are correct, then you make a good point.

 

[boppaid]

It is a sin because we are to be obedient to those in authority over us, not just Church authority but civil governing authority as well, provided it is acting for the common good. Prohibiting the use of an addictive drug is certainly acting in the common good.

Would you agree if it were beer or wine outlawed, as it was during prohibition?

 

[melensdad]

"FlCathMom:

We are required to obey all laws that do not prohibit us from practicing our faith.

My understanding was we did not have to obey laws if they were unjust.

Ditto. For example, we can practice our faith and the government can pass laws that allow for the rounding up and murder of all the Jews. Our faith is still protected but the laws state we cannot hide Jews, protect or shelter them. That would certainly be unjust law, but it would not necessarily prevent us from practicing our faith.

Still, most of the questions I have asked, and situations I have posed have gone unanswered. Why?

 

[DJgang]

Still, most of the questions I have asked, and situations I have posed have gone unanswered. Why?

Why? I don’t know…but this is such an interesting thread. I’m not ashamed to admit…long ago pothead here!… I’ve seen MJ lead to other drugs, I’ve seen MJ make people lazy and I’ve seen MJ absolutely have no effect on someone’s goals in life…so, could it be that it really falls in that area of alcohol? That’s almost what I’m starting to think.

 

[Guldenat]

Why? I don’t know…but this is such an interesting thread. I’m not ashamed to admit…long ago pothead here!… I’ve seen MJ lead to other drugs, I’ve seen MJ make people lazy and I’ve seen MJ absolutely have no effect on someone’s goals in life…so, could it be that it really falls in that area of alcohol? That’s almost what I’m starting to think.

Well, a common theme found melensdad’s and my own posts is that when people are attempting to show pot as being immoral they point to all of the different forms of abuse they have seen and think that this is a solid argument. It is not. I think we all have seen first hand or know of how abuse of alcohol has literally destroyed lives and families, however, that does not make alcohol itself intrinsically wrong.

Also, the idea of pot being a gateway drug is antiquated. More and more often, you will find people that are strictly potheads, and they not only refrain from other drugs, they will not even drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes. The American Psychology Association no longer considers pot to be a gateway drug, and they also say the best way to know whether or not someone will abuse an illegal substance is how they treat the legal ones, namely alcohol and tobacco.

 

[grinch]

Hi. People have some silly things to say and if they aren’t experienced then it just gets boring and ineffectual.
I smoked pot for about ten years until my dealer died and then I had to take a second look. I had tried to justify my use, trying to find an answer that would sit well with me in the catechism and all sorts of other sources. At one point I asked a priest about it and he said that pot use was no serious deal, but I also noticed that he didn’t genuflect. I always knew deep down that i was putting God on hold. I loved to smoke pot, it’s so enjoyable, and I would always enjoy it; it’s like some people are made for it. But, it just doesn’t fit. You can’t legitimately say the rosary when you are stoned. What if Our Lord came and it was the end of the world and you were high? Wouldn’t you feel kinda awkward? Do you think you would really respect the pope and take him seriously if he was a toker? What about the people who grow and sell it? Do you imagine them at the banquet at the end or writhing in torment? Do you want to support them?
The way I see it is that it’s like a kind of test. Here is something that naturally we are inclined to and love to do and get attached to but only at the expense of obedience. If we give it up for God’s sake then we are showing Him that He is more important to us than it is, but if we continue to use whilst doubtful of it’s morality then we are teetering on the brink and presuming God’s mercy.
There are many things in life that are attractive and enjoyable but are not licit. For example, pornography. People work very hard to justify themselves in their actions but if they are not obedient then they are culpable because they aught to know better. “As long as I am not hurting anyone else” they say. How do they know if they are or are not? How about if they are hurting Almighty God? Ripples on a pond and all that> Your actions effect everyone else…you are providing a bad example to your dealer.
Don’t be like the young rich man who was too attached to the things that he loved. You are going to die and you don’t want to die high.
By the way, it is addictive. It’s addictive because it’s so nice.
I presume you are a Catholic? If so, be honest with yourself. How many of the great saints if living today would be out there pulling cones? I loved drugs. If you love pot you will probably love acid, mescaline, ketamine, psilocibin, nitrous, dxm, salvia, lsa and all that, and every time you indulge it ends and you look forward to the next one and you want to enhance it and go further and hold on to it and justify it and bring something back from the experience and make your life better and bigger and so on.
The devil loves this. Cos all the while you are not really a friend of God. You want to please yourself and fill yourself with good things and fun times.
It all comes down to whether or not you really believe in God and how hardcore life really is; it’s no game, there’s no killing time. Every day I’d like to smoke some weed but I don’t and I offer it to God and trust that He will help someone by my sacrifice. I want to be a real man, not just some dude who goes through life justifying my actions for the sake of momentary pleasures. Think of your death and how you want to be when you die and don’t put off till then what you can do now.
You will lose friends by this, but they don’t compare to God and He you don’t want to lose.
Good luck and God bless.

Been there, done that.

 

[Guldenat]

You can’t legitimately say the rosary when you are stoned. What if Our Lord came and it was the end of the world and you were high? Wouldn’t you feel kinda awkward? Do you think you would really respect the pope and take him seriously if he was a toker? What about the people who grow and sell it? Do you imagine them at the banquet at the end or writhing in torment? Do you want to support them?
The way I see it is that it’s like a kind of test. Here is something that naturally we are inclined to and love to do and get attached to but only at the expense of obedience. If we give it up for God’s sake then we are showing Him that He is more important to us than it is, but if we continue to use whilst doubtful of it’s morality then we are teetering on the brink and presuming God’s mercy.
There are many things in life that are attractive and enjoyable but are not licit. For example, pornography. People work very hard to justify themselves in their actions but if they are not obedient then they are culpable because they aught to know better. “As long as I am not hurting anyone else” they say. How do they know if they are or are not? How about if they are hurting Almighty God? Ripples on a pond and all that> Your actions effect everyone else…you are providing a bad example to your dealer.
Don’t be like the young rich man who was too attached to the things that he loved. You are going to die and you don’t want to die high.
By the way, it is addictive. It’s addictive because it’s so nice.
I presume you are a Catholic? If so, be honest with yourself. How many of the great saints if living today would be out there pulling cones? I loved drugs. If you love pot you will probably love acid, mescaline, ketamine, psilocibin, nitrous, dxm, salvia, lsa and all that, and every time you indulge it ends and you look forward to the next one and you want to enhance it and go further and hold on to it and justify it and bring something back from the experience and make your life better and bigger and so on.
The devil loves this. Cos all the while you are not really a friend of God. You want to please yourself and fill yourself with good things and fun times.
It all comes down to whether or not you really believe in God and how hardcore life really is; it’s no game, there’s no killing time. Every day I’d like to smoke some weed but I don’t and I offer it to God and trust that He will help someone by my sacrifice. I want to be a real man, not just some dude who goes through life justifying my actions for the sake of momentary pleasures. Think of your death and how you want to be when you die and don’t put off till then what you can do now.
You will lose friends by this, but they don’t compare to God and He you don’t want to lose.
Good luck and God bless.

Been there, done that.

Something being enjoyable does not make it wrong. The fact that some people abuse it doesn’t make it wrong. I know a great deal of potheads who use it responsibly and are not addicted.

Would anyone take the pope seriously if he were a toker? Well, I cannot speak for the world’s population. Having said that, I do not think he would be taken seriously based on the fact that it is illegal in most first world countries. Their is much controversy surrounding the issue, as we see in this thread. At this point in time, it would be a bad idea for any representative of the Church to be performing activities that the majority of the West frowns upon.

Also, no one here is saying that it is OK to get stoned to the point that you could not even say a heartfelt prayer, nor would anyone say that it’s OK to drink enough that you couldn’t say a heartfelt prayer.

You bring up pornography. This does not work in our discussion because pornography has been considered sinful since the inception of Christianity. The debate over marijuana is literally less then 100 years old, and the case is not closed yet.

Also, your assertion that if someone ‘loves’ pot they will pretty much enjoy every other illegal drug simply isn’t true, and I believe I addressed that very issue in my last post. Also, I think being a real man has more to do with someone thinking for himself, as opposed to letting someone else do the thinking for him (in this case that person doing all the thinking would be the United States government, who made a law based on lies and racism)

 

[Guldenat]

blogs.salon.com/0002762/stories/2003/10/02/tellMeAgainWhyIsMarijuanaI.html

 

[grinch]

If you’ve already made up your mind then why are you asking the question? It’s all up to you. The Catholic church says that to use drugs for recreational purposes is wrong and you don’t want to accept it. You are a hard head who wants two things at once.
Either grow up or stay stuck.

 

[po18guy]

Nice cop out

Let’s presume that it was a social setting of adults. Let’s presume that everyone has a couple beers. Nobody is drunk but perhaps a few have a light buzz. That is apparently moral.

Now, let’s presume that its a social setting of adults. Let’s presume that every smokes a little pot. Nobody is “stoned” but perhaps a few have a light buzz. That is apparently immoral.

Why?

I neither drink nor smoke, so I am biased in this regard. I consider social drinking the same as drug usage. I believe that there is some sort of spiritual deficit in those who rely on, or “need” drugs or alcohol to enjoy life. But, that’s just me.

 

[Guldenat]

If you’ve already made up your mind then why are you asking the question? It’s all up to you. The Catholic church says that to use drugs for recreational purposes is wrong and you don’t want to accept it. You are a hard head who wants two things at once.
Either grow up or stay stuck.

Their is no need to be insulting, and your ad hominem attack reveals the weakness of your position. Also, I made it clear in my first post that what I was simply asking for the opinions of others, and that I was already comfortable with what I thought about the topic. I thought it would be an interesting thread, and apparently people seem to think it is. Your ignorance of the Catechism is clear, since alcohol is a recreational drug and yet we are allowed to use it, but it seems you do not actually read posts contrary to your opinion with any clarity. If you so much despise people disagreeing with you, stay out of the thread. Ironic telling someone to grow up when you are the first person to break rank from a cordial discussion and degenerate to childish name calling. Your previous post was a lengthy story about your own personal experience, and it assumes that no one else in this thread is ‘experienced’, which is at best absurd, since you have no idea what experiences I or any one else in this thread have had. Also, for you to expect us to agree with you simply because you used to smoke pot all the time is equally ridiculous. Now, if you wish to be constructive and act in a mature, intelligent manner, that’s great. If not, then take your own advice and ‘grow up or stay stuck’.

P.S. Your screen name seems appropriate, by the way.

 

[BobCatholic]

I look at the morality of marijane use like this.

Ever see someone high on mary jane?

Incredibly stupid, right?

Obviously, their mind is impaired. And also, their conscience would be as well.

Something that impairs a person’s mind and conscience cannot be a good thing. After all, why not completely impairing the brain is OK if a little impairment is OK. Same for the conscience.

This is also one of the reasons why drunkenness is immoral: A drunk guy’s conscience is deadened and he’ll do whatever evil (Oh look, drunk driver plows into 20 pedestrians…)

 

[Guldenat]

I neither drink nor smoke, so I am biased in this regard. I consider social drinking the same as drug usage. I believe that there is some sort of spiritual deficit in those who rely on, or “need” drugs or alcohol to enjoy life. But, that’s just me.

I think that is absolutely right… that recreational drugs are used to fill a hole left by a spiritual deficit. I would think though that it would mean using a substance for that purpose would be an imperfection, not necessarily a sin. Just kicking the ball around on that one.

 

[melensdad]

I neither drink nor smoke, so I am biased in this regard. I consider social drinking the same as drug usage. I believe that there is some sort of spiritual deficit in those who rely on, or “need” drugs or alcohol to enjoy life. But, that’s just me.

But you make a very clear point about the “need” of drugs or alcohol and I made, or tried to make, a very clear point that the usage we are talking about is NOT the type of usage that requires it, but is only used in recreational setting. Are we talking apples and oranges? I think we might be.

If you want to talk about people and morality and the “need” to imbibe in any sort of drug (prescription, alcohol, etc) then I would agree that we are talking about an immoral use.

But a glass of wine at dinner does not fall into that category.

 

[FLCathMom]

Ditto. For example, we can practice our faith and the government can pass laws that allow for the rounding up and murder of all the Jews. Our faith is still protected but the laws state we cannot hide Jews, protect or shelter them. That would certainly be unjust law, but it would not necessarily prevent us from practicing our faith.

No, our faith is not protected in the above scenario. We are commanded to love our neighbors as ourselves, and so we must, as faithful Catholics, protect and shelter those being rounded up for slaughter. We must obey all authority, even if it is unjust, unless it goes contrary to God’s law.

If, for some reason, the government decided we must all wear blue shirts, we must obey, because it is not immoral for us to wear blue.

 

[FLCathMom]

Let me add that if you believe a law is unjust, you have a responsiblity to work to have it changed, but that does not excuse you from obeying the law in the meantime.

 

[melensdad]

We are commanded to love our neighbors as ourselves, and so we must, as faithful Catholics, protect and shelter those being rounded up for slaughter.

Ah but in retrospect it is clear that they were being rounded up for slaughter. We clearly know that now. However, at the time, it was unclear. In fact most people were sheltered from the truth, especially those people in Germany, Austria, Poland, etc. Even here in the US we did not have a clue as to the extent of the situation. Realize that in the early-mid 1940’s there was no such thing as a pervasive news service like we have today. There were RUMORS and there was BELIEF but there was no PROOF. So we, as good Catholics, were bound by the laws of the land. We now know those to be unjust, but at the time they were not universally considered as such.

In the case of marijuana, there is plenty of evidence to show that the drug is not a stepping stone to harder drugs. There is also plenty of evidence to show that the laws that make it illegal are the cause of many of the actual problems.

Let me add that if you believe a law is unjust, you have a responsiblity to work to have it changed, but that does not excuse you from obeying the law in the meantime.

Just curious, but where in the CCC does it say that?

I look at the morality of marijane use like this.

Ever see someone high on mary jane?

Incredibly stupid, right?

Obviously, their mind is impaired. And also, their conscience would be as well.

Something that impairs a person’s mind and conscience cannot be a good thing. After all, why not completely impairing the brain is OK if a little impairment is OK. Same for the conscience.

This is also one of the reasons why drunkenness is immoral: A drunk guy’s conscience is deadened and he’ll do whatever evil (Oh look, drunk driver plows into 20 pedestrians…)

But are we talking about the morality of getting so high or drunk that we can’t walk? Or are we talking about the social use where that is not occurring?

All along this discussion I have been suggesting that we need to define the line between the 2 extremes. Again, I ask, nobody has answered . . . when my priest comes over to the house for a picnic and has a few beers is he acting in an immoral way? If he were to smoke some pot, why would it be different?

Again, MODERATION IN USE is being discussed, not use to the point of falling down stupors.

 

[FLCathMom]

Just curious, but where in the CCC does it say that?

2238 Those subject to authority should regard those in authority as representatives of God, who has made them stewards of his gifts: “Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution. . . . Live as free men, yet without using your freedom as a pretext for evil; but live as servants of God.” Their loyal collaboration includes the right, and at times the duty, to voice their just criticisms of that which seems harmful to the dignity of persons and to the good of the community.

2242 The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities **I]when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. **Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” “We must obey God rather than men”:

and, of course,

1899 The authority required by the moral order derives from God: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."