Morality of NFP to limit family size

[PaulinVA]

Paul, seriously? You’re suggesting it might be immoral to have children if you won’t be able to send them to college?

Yes, I am seriously asking the question. My wife and I decided to have another child (number 4) instead of sending our children to Catholic school. I understand the tradeoffs. We could probably agree you should not have children you can not feed and clothe. How about provide music lessons? Enrichment activities like band trips? Can you provide the children you have with a nice life? Or, do you have to continue to have children until you are tapped out?

 

[fpt]

So, couple A has the moral obligation to try to prevent children?

Yes or no?

My answer is:

It is irresponsible for a couple to want to have a large family during a civil war. This couple should postpone the wish to have a large family during this civil war. The couple should delay the new births and wait some best days.

I can not say the moral obligation to try to postpone children, because the catholic doctrine does not say the thing like that. A catholic answer cannot be yes or no, in my humble opinion. This couple has the moral obligation of avoiding to have* large family* during the war.

 

[fpt]

The use of the N.F.P. is not natural contraception. It is not, per se, by nature, in itself, from itself, of itself, for itself, a wrong act.

“NFP, while distinguishable from contraception in not being absolutely immoral, is seldom licit and always regrettable.” This quote is not catholic.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Yes, I am seriously asking the question. My wife and I decided to have another child (number 4) instead of sending our children to Catholic school. I understand the tradeoffs. We could probably agree you should not have children you can not feed and clothe. How about provide music lessons? Enrichment activities like band trips? Can you provide the children you have with a nice life? Or, do you have to continue to have children until you are tapped out?

1. really, that was the decision? Have another or send children to Catholic school. Which could have it’s own thread on the efficacy of education lately.
2. I think it would be hard to have more children than you could feed in todays America. Considering the programs available. But I think the answer lies somewhere in between. You should have the number of children you can take care of. That is not the number that takes you to the brink of starvation Grapes of Wrath style, but it is more than the average modern Catholic couple thinks they can “support”

The answer is “what is tapped out?” For some, that is I can’t afford to send them all to school and have them be Phi Beta Kappas. For others it is well, we are going to have to learn to cook all our meals at home because we can’t afford for us all to go to Mcdonalds every day. And there has to be some sort of standard. But no one seems to be willing to apply it fairly or logically. Each and every child lacks something monetarily, attention wise, or spiritual wise. One need only glance at the posts of fist time moms that are “Overwhelmed” to see that kids cost money, attention and time. And all of that will be deficient at some point by every single parent. We would not last long at all on these boards if we demanded 100 percent responsibility from every parent…

I fail as a parent. I failed with one child and I will fail with 5 or more. It is part of being human, of being a parent. We are not perfect parents like God. And, I devote more time and effort to my kids than most parents. Heck, more than most parents on the boards who are good good parents. And, though we are not rich, we make more money than the vast majority of our country let alone the entire world. I cannot in good consicence use the blessings I have been given (being alive at this time and place in history) as excuses for not participating in the command to co create with God. And I sure cannot condemn others who are not so fortunate who choose and have chosen to partake in the same co creation with God. And if we open ourselves to the realities that others face, the debate of creating a soul being decided upon if it can go to private Catholic schools seems downright evil. Sit down with a Chadean Mother who just watched ISIS chop her baby in half. and tell her you can understand how hard her choice to procreate a future child must be, on how her “right” to use NFP should be understood. Or even how the mothers of the Holy Innocents who died in search of killing the Christ should have taken into account their political and financial situation in deciding to procreate? Many many many of God’s children were born to slaves and remained slaves to the day they died. And God wanted those people to procreate, he wanted them to multiply. But we whine about stresses and finances of the modern world, about houses, cars and colleges. I maybe could have swung college for one or two of my children. Should the other three have never come to be? Or is their existence of more importance than their education. Every single person reading this thread has internet access, and literacy. Man, we are so out of touch with what real lack of education and poverty are…

 

[fpt]

The fact of having a large family is not one of ends of marriage;
The fact of having a large family is not one of moral obligations of marriage;
The fact of having a large family is not a condition of the validity of the marriage;
The " quiverfullism " of the conjugal act is immoral;
The " absolute pro-creationism " of the conjugal act is immoral;
The " absolute natalism " of the conjugal act is immoral;
The " absolute race to the large family " via the conjugal act is immoral;
The theoretical providentialism of the procreation is immoral;
The irresponsible practices of union of bodies are immoral;

The fact of having a large family is not, per se, a sign of the holiness of the couple;
The fact of having a small family is not, per se, a sign of the non-holiness of the couple;
The fact of having a large family is not, per se, a sign of the non-holiness of the couple;
The fact of having a small family is not, per se, a sign of the holiness of the couple;

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

My answer is:

It is irresponsible for a couple to want to have a large family during a civil war. This couple should postpone the wish to have a large family during this civil war. The couple should delay the new births and wait some best days.

I can not say the moral obligation to try to postpone children, because the catholic doctrine does not say the thing like that. A catholic answer cannot be yes or no, in my humble opinion. This couple has the moral obligation of avoiding to have* large family* during the war.

Do you understand the judgmental and condemning attitude that implies? I think a lack of understanding of history is implicit in most conversations of this subject. In my opinion there are a lot of uneducated people about these things, perhaps their parents should have not had them since they were not provided the correct education.

This thinking is a direct result of Margaret Sanger. Her intent and attitude of the poor and elite and their breeding rights fits right into your thoughts. The only difference is NFP is the avenue you wish to choose to impose your standards.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

The fact of having a large family is not one of ends of marriage;
The fact of having a large family is not one of moral obligations of marriage;
The fact of having a large family is not a condition of the validity of the marriage;
The " quiverfullism " of the conjugal act is immoral;
The " absolute pro-creationism " of the conjugal act is immoral;
The " absolute natalism " of the conjugal act is immoral;
The " absolute race to the large family " via the conjugal act is immoral;
The theoretical providentialism of the procreation is immoral;
The irresponsible practices of union of bodies are immoral;

The fact of having a large family is not, per se, a sign of the holiness of the couple;
The fact of having a small family is not, per se, a sign of the non-holiness of the couple;
The fact of having a large family is not, per se, a sign of the non-holiness of the couple;
The fact of having a small family is not, per se, a sign of the holiness of the couple;

I am wondering why you are so subjective.

what is a large family? I have (soon to have) 5 kids. I do not consider us a “Large” family, but rather just a family.

I am sorry but I must bow out for a while. My wife and I were discussing things the other day and it is funny how we have certain things that we really are emotional about. This is of course one of them for me. And when I feel that my logical self is being overridden by my emotional self I must let it go. This topic has caused me to sin against my fellow man because I am angered by many on this subject. To the point that I find myself not charitably trying to educate, but rather harboring hatred. And Losing respect for some who I have had respect for. It is a fault of mine that I need to work on. For my wife, it is that people should vaccinate and breastfeed. I could care less about either choice. For me, it is the frustration that the illogical part of this theology brings about in me, and ultimately leads me to doubt the Catholic Church in some things. And that is something that is not healthy. I have put some on my ignore list and have also tried to cut others whom I like some slack. (you, I have not figured out yet and I often have a hard time following you) That is not a knock on you, but just that your presentation does not communicate with me well. I suppose that my wife and I will go on continuing to be open to God’s plan and loving our family more and more with each child… And we will continue to educate them in the faith we hold so dear. The only education that really matters.

 

[fpt]

Do you understand the judgmental and condemning attitude that implies? I think a lack of understanding of history is implicit in most conversations of this subject. In my opinion there are a lot of uneducated people about these things, perhaps their parents should have not had them since they were not provided the correct education.

This thinking is a direct result of Margaret Sanger. Her intent and attitude of the poor and elite and their breeding rights fits right into your thoughts. The only difference is NFP is the avenue you wish to choose to impose your standards.

There is a difference between to have a family and to have a large family during the war. During a war, if a young couple is trying to have a large family, it could be irresponsible, the large family, not the family. After the war or during some better days, the couple could change their mind. The use of N.F.P. is month to month.

I do not know this person (Margaret Sanger).

The race to the large family is not a requisite for the validity of marriage. The race to the large family is not a moral obligation, a moral duty and a moral right for the couple.

The responsible procreation (responsible maternity and the responsible paternity) is a moral right, a moral obligation and a moral duty for the couple. The conscientization of the marital act for the procreation is a moral right, a moral obligation and a moral duty for the couple.

The Pope, the bishops, the priests, the nuns, the friars, the monks, the friends, the community, the lays persons, the State, the civil laws, the administrative laws, the penal laws h*ave no competence, and have no power coming from the natural law for deciding the number of children in the family. *Only, the couple, wife and husband, *has this natural competence and natural power. All other persons, even the catholic hierarchy, have to stay at distance. *The ultimate decision is the hands of the couple. The priests can give, only, information and advice in link with the true doctrine, in the details with all subleties: *nore more and not less. *The ultimate decision is the hands of each member of couple. The priest does not take the decision, he does not have to take the decision.

 

[fpt]

I am wondering why you are so subjective.

what is a large family? I have (soon to have) 5 kids. I do not consider us a “Large” family, but rather just a family.

From Hoosier Daddy of CAF, it is you:

There is no definition of large or small family. There are families who seek God’s will and those that don’t. And that has nothing to do with a set number of children. Either way. It is selfish to say “I only want 1 child” and it is selfish to say I want 22 children.

Here, I am okay with you.

I am sorry but I must bow out for a while. My wife and I were discussing things the other day and it is funny how we have certain things that we really are emotional about. This is of course one of them for me. And when I feel that my logical self is being overridden by my emotional self I must let it go. This topic has caused me to sin against my fellow man because I am angered by many on this subject. To the point that I find myself not charitably trying to educate, but rather harboring hatred. And Losing respect for some who I have had respect for. It is a fault of mine that I need to work on. For my wife, it is that people should vaccinate and breastfeed. I could care less about either choice. For me, it is the frustration that the illogical part of this theology brings about in me, and ultimately leads me to doubt the Catholic Church in some things. And that is something that is not healthy. I have put some on my ignore list and have also tried to cut others whom I like some slack. (you, I have not figured out yet and I often have a hard time following you) That is not a knock on you, but just that your presentation does not communicate with me well. I suppose that my wife and I will go on continuing to be open to God’s plan and loving our family more and more with each child… And we will continue to educate them in the faith we hold so dear. The only education that really matters.

 

[fpt]

If the catholic doctrine seems liberal on the N.F.P., it is wanted by the Catholic Church, because the Holy Spirit decides that.

 

[fpt]

I am wondering why you are so subjective.

what is a large family? I have (soon to have) 5 kids. I do not consider us a “Large” family, but rather just a family.

I am sorry but I must bow out for a while. My wife and I were discussing things the other day and it is funny how we have certain things that we really are emotional about. This is of course one of them for me. And when I feel that my logical self is being overridden by my emotional self I must let it go. This topic has caused me to sin against my fellow man because I am angered by many on this subject. To the point that I find myself not charitably trying to educate, but rather harboring hatred. And Losing respect for some who I have had respect for. It is a fault of mine that I need to work on. For my wife, it is that people should vaccinate and breastfeed. I could care less about either choice. For me, it is the frustration that the illogical part of this theology brings about in me, and ultimately leads me to doubt the Catholic Church in some things. And that is something that is not healthy. I have put some on my ignore list and have also tried to cut others whom I like some slack. (you, I have not figured out yet and I often have a hard time following you) That is not a knock on you, but just that your presentation does not communicate with me well. I suppose that my wife and I will go on continuing to be open to God’s plan and loving our family more and more with each child… And we will continue to educate them in the faith we hold so dear. The only education that really matters.

Give all your trust to the Catholic Church, she is Holy and Truth. If the reasons of use of NFP are so soft, it is a direct will of the Creator.

 

[Xantippe]

Absolutely! If it were this broad we would always agree. The problem is when you get specific enough to exclude others. Parents have the duty to prepare children to be productive Holy adults. However, that can be achieved in many ways. As both you and I have demonstrated. You have stated that in your area the schooling is sub par.

**Our area has the common US situation of so-so to really bad public schools in the city and good suburban schools. We live in the city because we want to be close to my husband’s work (he walks to work most days), close to the college community, and limit our family driving. Also, the campus chaplaincy (which is a long walk, but still a walk) is very good and we’d like to do more stuff with it. The kids’ private school happens to be in the same general area. (When we moved here, I didn’t have a driver’s license and my husband had just gotten his, so our initial choice of housing and school near campus was a necessity rather than a luxury.) It’s quite easy for us for the kids to go to talks on campus with their daddy. Also, when the kids are a little older, they will be able to enjoy far more freedom around campus than they would if we lived in a suburban cul de sac. In a year or two, I’ll be able to give the big kids a little cash and send them out for frozen yogurt or to Starbucks. And lastly, there is a chance that our kids will attend college here, so a location near the college will also eliminate transportation expenses and make for a more enjoyable and normal college experience if they live at home. Also, I see way more of my husband living near campus than I would if he were commuting.

So, there are many, many advantages to our location and a move to the suburbs would be very costly in many respects. It’s not just a question of getting a u-haul.
**

You choose to private school your children, and you are blessed to have the financed to do so. But those who cannot or do not, or who find the school system adequate can morally reproduce right?

Yes, but if they decided to limit their family size in order to provide a better education to their existing children, that would be quite understandable and defensible.

 

[PaulinVA]

1. really, that was the decision? Have another or send children to Catholic school. Which could have it’s own thread on the efficacy of education lately.

Yes, seriously. That was the decision. Children cost money on an ongoing basis. So does education.

1. I think it would be hard to have more children than you could feed in todays America. Considering the programs available. But I think the answer lies somewhere in between. You should have the number of children you can take care of. That is not the number that takes you to the brink of starvation Grapes of Wrath style, **but it is more than the average modern Catholic couple thinks they can “support” **

I reject your indictment .

The answer is “what is tapped out?” For some, that is I can’t afford to send them all to school and have them be Phi Beta Kappas. For others it is well, we are going to have to learn to cook all our meals at home because we can’t afford for us all to go to Mcdonalds every day. And there has to be some sort of standard. But no one seems to be willing to apply it fairly or logically.

Well, there is no standard. Well, actually, I believe the Church says that you can live in a comparable way to the people around you. So, if you live in a high income or net worth area…

I cannot in good conscience use the blessings I have been given (being alive at this time and place in history) as excuses for not participating in the command to co create with God. And I sure cannot condemn others who are not so fortunate who choose and have chosen to partake in the same co creation with God. And if we open ourselves to the realities that others face, the debate of creating a soul being decided upon if **it can go to private Catholic schools seems downright evil. **… **And God wanted those people to procreate, he wanted them to multiply. ** But we whine about stresses and finances of the modern world, about houses, cars and colleges. I maybe could have swung college for one or two of my children. Should the other three have never come to be? Or is their existence of more importance than their education. Every single person reading this thread has internet access, and literacy. Man, we are so out of touch with what real lack of education and poverty are…

Yes, we are discussing first world problems. But, we live in the first world.

You have made choices in your life. Great. So have I. I am not in any way belittling the choices you have made.

 

[Xantippe]

Why is it that my wife and I are having a fifth and she just finished her masters degree which we will be paying for? Is that wrong? Should we not have had a child? Should we give it up for adoption to some parents that have their school paid for? This is the inconstancy in moral theology of NFP…

I would personally not have done an MBA while pregnant with a fifth child, but obviously my circumstances are different from yours.

But I definitely know that I would not borrow for a graduate degree (unless perhaps it was an MD or something along those lines).

Different people will weight the risks of different courses of action differently.

As somebody once said, if we all agreed on everything, there’d be no betting on horse races.

 

[fpt]

I am wondering why you are so subjective.

what is a large family? I have (soon to have) 5 kids. I do not consider us a “Large” family, but rather just a family.

I am sorry but I must bow out for a while. My wife and I were discussing things the other day and it is funny how we have certain things that we really are emotional about. This is of course one of them for me. And when I feel that my logical self is being overridden by my emotional self I must let it go. This topic has caused me to sin against my fellow man because I am angered by many on this subject. To the point that I find myself not charitably trying to educate, but rather harboring hatred. And Losing respect for some who I have had respect for. It is a fault of mine that I need to work on. For my wife, it is that people should vaccinate and breastfeed. I could care less about either choice. For me, it is the frustration that the illogical part of this theology brings about in me, and ultimately leads me to doubt the Catholic Church in some things. And that is something that is not healthy. I have put some on my ignore list and have also tried to cut others whom I like some slack. (you, I have not figured out yet and I often have a hard time following you) That is not a knock on you, but just that your presentation does not communicate with me well. I suppose that my wife and I will go on continuing to be open to God’s plan and loving our family more and more with each child… And we will continue to educate them in the faith we hold so dear. The only education that really matters.

About the morality of the catholic marriage, there are many debates. If you read CAF, you can note them.

The N.F.P., the use of the N.F.P., the ends of marriage, the articulation of Ends of marriage;

The right to the body, on the body and of the body, the conjugal sexual physical rights, the sexual marital debt, the sexual conjugal obligation, the morality of sexual foreplay (sexual preliminaries), the modus operandi of the marital act, the morality of the post-coital acts;

The statute and the condition of the wife, the Statute and the condition of the husband, the conjugal submission, the leadership of husband;

The modesty and the decency in the garments…

The nullity of marriage, the Canon Law of marriage, the discussion on before or after Vatican II…etc.

**
The catholic debates are so strong.**

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I am sorry that I have to unsubscribe form this thread.

 

[Xantippe]

The answer is “what is tapped out?” For some, that is I can’t afford to send them all to school and have them be Phi Beta Kappas. For others it is well, we are going to have to learn to cook all our meals at home because we can’t afford for us all to go to Mcdonalds every day. And there has to be some sort of standard.

**Nope.

There doesn’t.

Everything is not either mandatory or prohibited. There is a large area of liberty for Catholic parents to make choices for their families. That is part of our human dignity.
**

And if we open ourselves to the realities that others face, the debate of creating a soul being decided upon if it can go to private Catholic schools seems downright evil.

**???

Why is it wrong for Catholic parents to choose to send their Catholic children to Catholic schools?**

Sit down with a Chadean Mother who just watched ISIS chop her baby in half. and tell her you can understand how hard her choice to procreate a future child must be, on how her “right” to use NFP should be understood.
**
Some Chaldean mothers would want a new baby as soon as possible. But others would genuinely need time to mourn the child they lost. (You see this dynamic all the time with regard to miscarriage. Some women need to get pregnant immediately–others are so traumatized by miscarriage that they need a break.

People are different and have different needs. **

Or even how the mothers of the Holy Innocents who died in search of killing the Christ should have taken into account their political and financial situation in deciding to procreate? Many many many of God’s children were born to slaves and remained slaves to the day they died.

**You do realize that in other parts of the world and in times past, many women have absolutely no say over whether or not they have sex and whether or not they are going to be pregnant and how often.

Just being able to choose to say “no” to sex at all is a first world luxury.**

And God wanted those people to procreate, he wanted them to multiply. But we whine about stresses and finances of the modern world, about houses, cars and colleges. I maybe could have swung college for one or two of my children. Should the other three have never come to be? Or is their existence of more importance than their education. Every single person reading this thread has internet access, and literacy. Man, we are so out of touch with what real lack of education and poverty are…

 

[Xantippe]

Well, there is no standard. Well, actually, I believe the Church says that you can live in a comparable way to the people around you. So, if you live in a high income or net worth area…

Yes. I don’t have a cite for this right now, but my husband told me at one point that we are allowed to enjoy a standard of living commensurate with our station in life. I wish I had the cite, but that idea is part of traditional Catholic thought.

Yes, we are discussing first world problems. But, we live in the first world.

Yes.

You have made choices in your life. Great. So have I. I am not in any way belittling the choices you have made.

**
Yes.**

 

[Bookcat]

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2015/01/21/francis-large-families-are-a-gift-from-god/

 

[mommamaree]

I grew up in a family that had three kids and struggled financially a lot, and frankly, if somebody were to ask me, would you have preferred to have yet another sibling but no help with college? there’s absolutely no way I’d choose the extra sibling. .

I know this was an earlier comment, but I really had to address it, even so late in the conversation.

Honestly, I am stunned at this comment. Truly astonished. I was rocking my baby while reading along, enjoying the debate by three of my fave members of CAF (you Xantippe, Longing Soul, and Hoosier Daddy) and when I read this I gasped and stopped rocking the baby abruptly and woke her.

Really, Xantippe? How could you say such a thing?