Morality of same-sex attraction by itself

[goofyjim]

I am in agreement with the Church that homosexual behavior is wrong not to mention very unhealthy. But I also hear those that say one must change even the attraction. I have and continue to live a life of prayer but the attraction has never gone away. I find I do not fit even the regular narth descriptions of an SSA male. My father is not distant. We are both political conservatives and faithful Catholics. He does not mind my difficulty. So why can’t we accept same-sex attraction w/o endorsing the lifestyle?

 

[thistle]

goofyjim:

I am in agreement with the Church that homosexual behavior is wrong not to mention very unhealthy. But I also hear those that say one must change even the attraction. I have and continue to live a life of prayer but the attraction has never gone away. I find I do not fit even the regular narth descriptions of an SSA male. My father is not distant. We are both political conservatives and faithful Catholics. He does not mind my difficulty. So why can’t we accept same-sex attraction w/o endorsing the lifestyle?

CCC 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

CCC 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

CCC 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

 

[goofyjim]

thistle:

CCC 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

CCC 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

CCC 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

I am already quite familiar with this. But my question is is it necessary to not even be same-sex attracted to have reached perfection?

 

[vluvski]

I’m not sure I understand what you are asking. Are you wondering whether it is OK to seek same-sex companionship in a romantic but chaste relationship, or wondering if it is mortally sinful even to be one who has SSA?

 

[goofyjim]

vluvski:

I’m not sure I understand what you are asking. Are you wondering whether it is OK to seek same-sex companionship in a romantic but chaste relationship, or wondering if it is mortally sinful even to be one who has SSA?

No relationships. Just living with SSA.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Goofy: It’s disordered, it’s not sinful nor culpable in and of itself. I think that the Church’s mind is that it is a cross to be borne, like some others in intensity, but less so or more so (our lives are our crosses, to my way of thinking) than perhaps some others. I think that you are brave.

 

[vluvski]

One can only sin if deliberately doing something sinful, or deliberately neglecting to do something that is one’s responsibility.

I can’t think of any situation where simply living with SSA would constitute sin. Certainly fantasies, etc… are sinful, but I don’t think this is what you’re talking about.

I also admire you greatly for taking a stand as a Catholic who lives with SSA. Your testimony is a strong one.

 

[setter]

goofyjim:

I am in agreement with the Church that homosexual behavior is wrong not to mention very unhealthy. But I also hear those that say one must change even the attraction. I have and continue to live a life of prayer but the attraction has never gone away. I find I do not fit even the regular narth descriptions of an SSA male. My father is not distant. We are both political conservatives and faithful Catholics. He does not mind my difficulty. So why can’t we accept same-sex attraction w/o endorsing the lifestyle?

I do not see why this would be a problem if you only “accept” SSA for what it is in the 1) psychosexual sense–an objectively disordered desire (which is a symptom of an underlying psychological disorder), and 2) a cross that one is afflicted with and must bear and is a means to purification and holiness of life.

Those couple citations from the CCC are worth repeating and St. Paul offers for Christians an example and model for all afflicted with a temptation of the flesh borne of a disordered desire (moral disorder):

“And to keep me from being too elated by the abundance of revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to harass me, to keep me from being too elated. Three times I besought the Lord about this, that it should leave me; but he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” I will all the more gladly boast of my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.” **2 Corinthians 12:7-9 **

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. (CCC)

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. (CCC)

 

[Pug]

goofyjim:

But I also hear those that say one must change even the attraction.

Not to my knowledge. Have you considered looking at the Courage ministry? It is here. Some of their materials might be comforting.

 

[LeahInancsi]

goofyjim:

I am in agreement with the Church that homosexual behavior is wrong not to mention very unhealthy. But I also hear those that say one must change even the attraction. I have and continue to live a life of prayer but the attraction has never gone away. I find I do not fit even the regular narth descriptions of an SSA male. My father is not distant. We are both political conservatives and faithful Catholics. He does not mind my difficulty. So why can’t we accept same-sex attraction w/o endorsing the lifestyle?

I fully except same-sex attraction as long as a person does not act on it. The sin comes with the action or lifestyle, not the attraction.

IMHO

 

[ilovemyGod2]

what about two people of the same sex who are completely in love with one another, but not necessarily attracted to just the same sex. Even if they remain chaste are they still destined for hell if they continue to be together?

 

[LeahInancsi]

ilovemyGod2:

what about two people of the same sex who are completely in love with one another, but not necessarily attracted to just the same sex. Even if they remain chaste are they still destined for hell if they continue to be together?

I would say that would be crossing the line of attraction and acting on that attraction. In that case, they would be destined for hell.

I’m thinking that “attraction” means seeing a member of the opposite sex and wanting to spend time alone with that person, but not communicating that desire or acting on it.

 

[ElizabethAnne]

ilovemyGod2:

what about two people of the same sex who are completely in love with one another, but not necessarily attracted to just the same sex. Even if they remain chaste are they still destined for hell if they continue to be together?

I do not believe it is our place to judge who is or is not going to hell. I would never comment on where an individual or a group of individuals will spend eternity.

As to the rest of your question, I do not understand what you are asking. Two people of the same sex cannot be “completely in love with one another.” God is love. God does not intend for them to have a relationship. Since they are acting on an attraction that is contrary to God, they cannot love each other completely.

What do you mean by “be together” if they are living chastely? Are they living together? Are they holding hands? Are they friends with an attraction? Are they acting on their feelings in any way? Are they going to act on their feelings some day?

Heterosexual couples who date are meant to be on the road to marriage. Their call to abstinence is temporary. I think it would be a huge strain on any couple to live with permanent abstinence. Again, that is not something God is calling this couple to.

What do you mean by “but not necessarily attracted to just the same sex”?

 

[vluvski]

The problem is that we do not yet, and cannot yet, fully understand what love and attraction are. Even the distinction between “to love” and “to be in love” is fuzzy at best.

That butterflies-in-your-stomach feeling you get when you are around someone you are attracted to (be it same sex or opposite sex) is largely involuntary.

Love is something that must be nurtured and must be a conscious choice. Not all love is romantic love or filial love. There are friends in my life about whom I care about very deeply, some who I love or am even in love with, but I have only one romantic interest (my fiance, obviously).

I highly recommend C.S. Lewis’ The Four Loves to gain a better understanding of the distinctions among different types of love and attraction.

 

[uncleauberon]

Having SSA may be naturally disordered - but it is not sinful.

A comparative question would be :

Is it sinful for a single hetrosexual to carry on a close friendship with a member of the opposite sex ? Even if they are attracted to eachother ?

A close, intimate friendship that may include lots of time alone may be a temptation to sin – but it is not sinful.

Should a married man have a close friendship with a single woman who he is attracted to ?
It may not be sinful - but he puts himself on a slippery slope. And must tread very carefully ?

The relevant question is - Should someone with SSA have a close relationship where there is mutual attraction ? Is it wise to open himself to an occasion of sin ?

Someone with SSA should foster healthy friendships with all kinds of people. Even with those he is attracted to.

But, he must be careful not to “set himself up” to fail by making it too easy to fall to his temptations.

Pray for those who has this particular difficulty in their lives.

todd

 

[genealogist]

I think goofyjim’s point is “Does a SSA person have to try and “change” via Exodus ministries and get married and have kids?”

I would answer no, he should accept his disorder as a call to celibacy and chastity and live out his life as a single person. It is great that goofyjim has support from his father to live a conservative lifestyle inline with the teachings of the Church.

We have a Protestant minister in town who was the pastor of the LCMS megacongregation and was arrested for public lewdness in a park. He had to resign and took many faithful followers along forming a new parish. He got arrested again in another park for masturbating in public. So much for he was urinating the first time.

The reason I raise this is SSA is very strong and it is not fair to this man, his wife or his congregations for him to be SSA, trying to be married to a woman and dealing with these strong desires. I said he needs to make up his mind and either be a homosexual pastor in a church that accepts the lifestyle or a chaste man in a conservative church. Marriage did not fix him just like ordination does not fix “naughty” priests. His choice is “Do I want to sleep with men or do I want to be a conservative pastor?” He can’t be both.

I hope goofyjim would consider writing or speaking to young SSA people and offer them support and guidance. Unfortunately, if one is an alcoholic he can live in society but if one is SSA and chaste one must be in the closet; the heteroesexuals would be suspect and the gays would say you are lying and are just a moment away from acting out your attractions. God bless you goofyjim!

 

[mosher]

JKirkLVNV:

Goofy: It’s disordered, it’s not sinful nor culpable in and of itself. I think that the Church’s mind is that it is a cross to be borne, like some others in intensity, but less so or more so (our lives are our crosses, to my way of thinking) than perhaps some others. I think that you are brave.

I think that this is the best and most accurate response yet. Recall that the sin is in the act not the temptation. However, the attraction is not ordered to the good meaning that it is not ordered to the nature of sexuality. Yes, it is a cross and it is one to be borne in life as one born or made blind is to bare their blindness as a cross in life. I think that the person that suffers with SSA should have a desire and make a commitment to try to order their passion - this is itself the cross being born. Remember the life of holiness is made by ordering all of our disordered passions thus in our call to seek holiness a person with SSA should work with due diligence to address this problem so that they can be more conformed to Christ.

 

[LeahInancsi]

mosher:

I think that this is the best and most accurate response yet. Recall that the sin is in the act not the temptation. However, the attraction is not ordered to the good meaning that it is not ordered to the nature of sexuality. Yes, it is a cross and it is one to be borne in life as one born or made blind is to bare their blindness as a cross in life. I think that the person that suffers with SSA should have a desire and make a commitment to try to order their passion - this is itself the cross being born. Remember the life of holiness is made by ordering all of our disordered passions thus in our call to seek holiness a person with SSA should work with due diligence to address this problem so that they can be more conformed to Christ.

I agree. As long as a person does not act on a homosexual attraction, they have not committed a sin.

 

[Aaron_I]

goofyjim:

I am already quite familiar with this. But my question is is it necessary to not even be same-sex attracted to have reached perfection?

same-sex attraction is a disorder, but not a sin. You will eventually lose this attraction, during purgatory at the latest, but it won’t be an obstacle to your salvation. A good parallel is licentiousness. Sure, a man’s lewdness isn’t sinful if he doesn’t act on his desires, but to truly be perfect, he’ll eventually have to overcome his disorder.

 

[La-Petite-Fleur]

I think along the same lines as what most of the posters on this thread have written: that SSA is not a sin, it’s acting upon it. You must have full consent of the will to commit a mortal sin, and I expect that people with SSA can’t help it.