The crusades started when the Otoman empire invaded Greece. The otomans had brutally slaughtered everyone and destroyed everything on their path and when they attacked Greecethe Greeks had no way to defend themselves and they asked the Vatican for help defend them from the otomans, probably you are the one who needs to go to Istanbul and learn what actually happened and what the otomans did before talking.
No, my point is that (while most important) moral issues are only important while you are still sucking-air, after that, your point is moot. I am just tired of the people saying their ability to expound on morality and Christianity here does not come at a price. That price is others doing the dirty-work of protecting you from those who have no care for (or not the same idea as you of) morality or Christianity (they are many, and only have a terminous in the return of THE ALMIGHTY). You questioning the morality of those who provide for your freedom and “peace and quiet” to enjoy your typing here, is damaging to them (those providing your security) without helping you. If you speak against the prosecution of ‘war’ [as though it is not a permanent human condition] you only hasten an increase in its manifestation. This is my opinion, but I believe it is well supported throughout recorded human history.
I’m not sure what you mean by that. If you mean that moral decisions are only possible by the living, then I agree. If you mean that moral issues are trumped by staying alive, then I disagree.
Who has said that? None of the posts here say that.
If you mean that we should be grateful to those who serve in the military, then I agree. If you mean that gratefulness should extend to granting a pass on all actions taken by the military and not subjecting those actions to the moral scrutiny that is appropriate for such actions, then I disagree.
The issue of this thread is the morality of war, not the morality of soldiers. That would be an entirely different discussion. So stop accusing people of putting down soldiers. But if you think that it is appropriate to avoid questioning the morality of war just because the same agency that makes war also provides for our peace and quiet (and true protection) then again I must disagree. The application of the Church’s Just War teaching is appropriate at all times and in all places where war and war-like actions are involved.
Are you suggesting then that no person should ever question the morality of the actions of soldiers serving in the armed forces of their country? If soldiers kill innocent people in order to protect your freedom, then you ought simply to be grateful and not question the morality of such actions?
So that’s OK then is it? Day-to-day needs take precedence over morality? Do what we have to to meet what we perceive as our “day-to-day needs” regardless of innocent lives lost in order to protect these?
I have always thought that, if I were a teacher, I would give as much partial credit to an answer as possible. Your statement, however, would still warrant a “0” in response to the statement “explain the causes of the event known as the crusades.”
I meant, the “just/unjust” game in the sense that the Holy See reviews all wars throughout history and declares them either “just” or “unjust.” Even recent wars are denounced, not because they violate the concept of just war, but because war is a bad thing and church leaders do not wish to see the innocent suffer. When was the last time the Holy See issued a statement declaring that "such and such" war is unjust?
St. Louis, King of France participated in the Eight Crusade and managed to get himself captured in Egypt, hardly a cause for canonization. He later died during crusade from some epidemic in North Africa. In any event, saints are canonized, not for any one particular thing that they’ve done but for the sanctity of their lives. I seriously doubt that St. Louis was canonized for going on crusade. If that were the case, then Tancred the Norman and all of his Norman pals would be saints for their horrific slaughter of the infidel in the taking of Jerusalem.
The Ottoman Empire not only didn’t exist at the start of the Crusades, it nearly (historically speaking) missed existing prior to the end of the crusading period.
Since the Hebrews were following the command of God, then I would suppose one must say that, yes, their wars were just because God is Justice.
So God is subject to the teachings of the Church?
All I’m saying is that if we apply St. Augustine’s just-war criteria to the Israelites’ activities in the land of Canaan, we may arrive at a dubious conclusion.
it doesn’t matter if the Holy See doesn’t say a way is just/unjust. Its not the Holy Seas job to do these things. It is up to the individual leaders of countries to go through the steps of just war and see if they can fight, not up to the Pope to be the moral police of all the countries. While men of the government aren’t very morally founded in Christian doctrine they are still capable for making decisions on Wars themselves and the Church shouldn’t get involved in it.
I couldn’t agree more. What, then, is the purpose of the various and sundry posts here on CAF attempting to infallibly declare the justness or non-justness of a particular war when even the Church does no such thing?
I don’t know I’ve never declared it infallibly its up to discussion
The Church does not make a declaration if someone pulls out a gun and kills another person… Does that mean then that it is nobody’s business, other than the man who pulled the trigger, to say whether or not this action was just?
The myriad of opinions on CAF have nothing to do with the authoritative applications of Church teachings, much like some claim that if you are pro-life then you must be against the death penalty and any military action whatsoever. There is no point in an argument where two parties on opposite sides of an issue use the same points in advancing their position.
Well, lucky for you, seeing as you have so much disdain for this forum, the authoritative Church has given us plenty of guidance on Syria.
That does not negate the morality (or otherwise) of each individual act of killing that takes place in war. If a person knowingly (or knows that it is very likely) shoots or drops a bomb on, an innocent civilian, then that is an act of murder (wearing a uniform, or “following orders” does not afford any exemption from the law of God). War is made up of lots of individual acts of killing, for which the individuals carrying them out bear responsibility (along with, of course, those who incited them to kill).
