Morality vs. white male privilege

[bobballen_18]

Maybe there are “white male privilege” issues, and maybe minorities are a little less socially accepted, I don’t know. But if either of those issues really exists, they do not exist to the high degree that some people would have you believe. I don’t have any statistics to spout off, but I wish people who complain about “white male privilege” and “discrimination” and all that would take a look at the other possible reasons behind why such “privilege” actually exists. An earlier poster mentioned how some populations (whether they are men, women, African-Americans, Hispanics, etc etc) are more interested in or more suited for particular work, and that is why we have different levels of women compared to men, and more non-minorities compared minorities, in different lines of work. If there are minorities who have a higher unemployment rate than those with “privileges”, it is because minorities tend to not have the same qualifications, not (necessarily) because they are discriminated against. I am fine with saying it is a good discussion to have, how to help minorities who tend to be more poor than non-minorities. But I am not fine with the idea that just because someone has certain “privileges” he should bend over backwards to make sure he is not “infringing” on poor/less “privileged” people’s rights. That is a ridiculous idea. Certainly one must be charitable and rightly concerned about people less fortunate, but one will be able to be more charitable towards such people if one takes advantage of the opportunities that are available.

 

[1ke]

However, there is a distinct ethical problem.

There is NO ethical problem here at all.

The only ethical problem in looking for a job would be if you lied on your resume, in the interview, or hid something material like a criminal record applicable to your field.

I am a white american male. I understand that, with these traits, I enjoy a multitude of benefits and opportunities that women and people of color do not.

Wow, you have been very effectively brainwashed. Please get this nonsense out of your head. I am a woman and that is insulting.

Is it moral for a person like myself to entertain job prospects?

Of course it is. I am not even understanding how you could think it is “immoral” to look for a job???

In my research I’ve read that any opportunity I take will be one that is not given to a lesser-privileged person.

Perhaps it won’t be given to a lesser QUALIFIED person.

UGH. PLEASE get some guidance from your pastor if you really believe all that you are writing.

my white male privilege continuing as a tool of oppression in the near term.

I can’t even believe what I’m reading.

It’s a serious problem and I honestly don’t know what to do.

Please apply for a job in a field you are qualified in and stop feeling guilty for having the tenacity to go to school, support yourself, and work towards a new career.

 

[katiesonlyson]

What stands out for me is this: by continuing to work in the construction trades, you are preventing someone with less training than you from that job.
You should go into computers which is what you trained for, and let someone who needs your current job do construction labor.

.

Thank you, I never thought of it like that. Really should have quit long ago, but had to learn a new skill to do so. Today’s laborer works in dreadful conditions, but hopefully if I can work my way out others will be able to as well.

 

[katiesonlyson]

Wow, you have been very effectively brainwashed. Please get this nonsense out of your head. I am a woman and that is insulting.

Thanks for your response. I didn’t mean any kind of insult or condescension in this statement. Many of my greatest influencers and most of my instructors have been women. It’s just that I’ve been taught that women have a more difficult path in the job market due to corporate misogyny. Also there is a constant flow of statistics in the news regarding the gender pay imbalance.

I guess if one hears about these things constantly that it begins to resonate as truth. But again, no offense intended at all. God Bless you for your insights.

 

[katiesonlyson]

Maybe there are “white male privilege” issues, and maybe minorities are a little less socially accepted, I don’t know. But if either of those issues really exists, they do not exist to the high degree that some people would have you believe. I don’t have any statistics to spout off, but I wish people who complain about “white male privilege” and “discrimination” and all that would take a look at the other possible reasons behind why such “privilege” actually exists. An earlier poster mentioned how some populations (whether they are men, women, African-Americans, Hispanics, etc etc) are more interested in or more suited for particular work, and that is why we have different levels of women compared to men, and more non-minorities compared minorities, in different lines of work. If there are minorities who have a higher unemployment rate than those with “privileges”, it is because minorities tend to not have the same qualifications, not (necessarily) because they are discriminated against. I am fine with saying it is a good discussion to have, how to help minorities who tend to be more poor than non-minorities. But I am not fine with the idea that just because someone has certain “privileges” he should bend over backwards to make sure he is not “infringing” on poor/less “privileged” people’s rights. That is a ridiculous idea. Certainly one must be charitable and rightly concerned about people less fortunate, but one will be able to be more charitable towards such people if one takes advantage of the opportunities that are available.

Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply. This echoes the sentiment of my mentor, who said that I should become very successful and use that success to start a mentoring program for the underserved population that they may lift themselves from poverty. God Bless you!

 

[1ke]

It’s just that I’ve been taught that women have a more difficult path in the job market due to corporate misogyny.

I’m sorry you have been taught such a big whopper of a lie.

Also there is a constant flow of statistics in the news regarding the gender pay imbalance.

Ever read the book “how to lie with statistics”? You should.

Much of the pay imbalance is due to women leaving the workforce for years and then reentering at middle age. I have been in the workforce without leaving/reentering and I make the same or more than others in comparable positions in my company and comparable to industry averages.

Women who leave and return often start back at the beginning without outdated skills or less experience and less seniority.

Women also choose jobs that pay less-- less physical, less dangerous, less technical.

Two people in the same job role are going to fall within my company’s compensation range for that job. There will be variance between employees based on skills and experience.

Those are life choices, not discrimination.

I have no doubt that there are real imbalances in some places and with some individuals. But MASS pay discrimination, no.

I guess if one hears about these things constantly that it begins to resonate as truth. But again, no offense intended at all. God Bless you for your insights.

Yes, I am sure it does.

 

[Usige]

It’s just that I’ve been taught that women have a more difficult path in the job market due to corporate misogyny. Also there is a constant flow of statistics in the news regarding the gender pay imbalance.

Two people in the same job role are going to fall within my company’s compensation range for that job. There will be variance between employees based on skills and experience.

…

I have no doubt that there are real imbalances in some places and with some individuals. But MASS pay discrimination, no.

Too follow on to what 1ke has said, part of the pay imbalance between men and women in the same job can come down to how hard people negotiate. In many (both not all) cases men are more aggressive in requesting higher salaries. Men are often more willing to say give me a raise or I’ll leave.

In many ways it comes down to if a person is willing to trade stability and lack of conflict for lower pay. I (as a male) likely make less than some of my peers simply because I don’t like playing political games or one-ups-manship. That doesn’t mean that the type A personalities are oppressing me because I don’t want the stress of fighting for a little more pie every year. I have had female employees that made more than their male peers simply because they asked for a higher salary. In general businesses aren’t just going to give everyone a raise simply because one person asked for 10-15% more than the lowest paid person.

Now it might be possible that women are given lower starting offers, but if so it is up to them to negotiate better compensation. I have walked away from offers that I felt were too low only to have them come back later to offer me what I asked to begin with, but if you simply say yes to a low offer then that is completely on you regardless of your gender.

 

[lax16]

Hello, I am struggling with a decision and hope someone can help. I am 43 and come from a modest working-class background. Recently, I completed a 2-year degree at community college in order to start a new career in computer programming (25 years of computer programming has exacted a physical toll). Currently I am doing some small volunteer projects to gain experience in the field, but job opportunities have now started coming my way.

On its face, this might seem like great news. However, there is a distinct ethical problem. I am a white american male. I understand that, with these traits, I enjoy a multitude of benefits and opportunities that women and people of color do not. For instance, white males in america are offered employment much more readily than others and are compensated at higher rates. Unemployment for whites is currently 3 percent, while it is 26 percent for African-Americans.

Is it moral for a person like myself to entertain job prospects? In my research I’ve read that any opportunity I take will be one that is not given to a lesser-privileged person. I would really have a problem robbing someone of an opportunity. My mentor (who is Nativ-American) has said that I should try to be as successful as possible, and then use that success to mentor minority youths - thereby creating more opportunities for them. That sounds good in the long term, but it does not solve the ethical problem of my white male privilege continuing as a tool of oppression in the near term.

When visiting the US, Father Francis showed signs of pride in the Black Lives Matter movement, who have recently demanded a greater degree of equality in america. However, I’m not sure how long I can continue to support myself with construction labor. Not seeking validation or “go for it” just to be “nice”. It’s a serious problem and I honestly don’t know what to do.

Thank you and Peace be with you.

Get a good job and then you can help others.

 

[exnihilo]

Also there is a constant flow of statistics in the news regarding the gender pay imbalance.

I guess if one hears about these things constantly that it begins to resonate as truth. But again, no offense intended at all. God Bless you for your insights.

The constant flow is the same old data over and over again. There are good explanations for why the data was as it was. What we don’t hear about is how women outnumber men in college. Or that men are grossly misrepresented in prisons. If that is mentioned at all it is explained away as not reflecting bias. Well if men can be more inclined to crime by nature it is just as possible they are on the whole better workers deserving better jobs and better pay. But the egalitarian crowd doesn’t play fair. They are dishonest and treat groups as anything but equal.

 

[b_ulmen]

Thank you, I never thought of it like that. Really should have quit long ago, but had to learn a new skill to do so. Today’s laborer works in dreadful conditions, but hopefully if I can work my way out others will be able to as well.

are you serious? what country are you working in? how are you defining dreadful? the inherent suckiness of manual labor is in no way a dreadful condition. Are you sure you’re not posting this tripe just to get some extra points in your Cultural Anthropology class?

 

[I_trust]

The white male privilege is certainly not evident in today’s schools.
My daughter graduated one year after her boyfriend (both with engineering degrees from the same University). She had more job offers upon graduation at higher starting salaries than he did. She has been promoted twice in her first year with the company.

My son in High school is also planning on studying engineering. He participates in robotics. I can tell you that because of the push for girls in STEM, his all boy robotics team is consistently overlooked for awards. They simply do far superior work in their engineering notebook, design, build quality and innovation etc. than other female teams but they are not considered for awards because they are all white males. One of the official suggested criteria the judges are to use is “how is diversity represented by the members of the team”

My boss (at a Fortune 500 company) worked in recruiting/personnel for many years. He was ordered to not hire many white males who were otherwise perfect candidates so that my company could show on their books that they rejected a high % of white males.

 

[signit]

The white male privilege is certainly not evident in today’s schools.
My daughter graduated one year after her boyfriend (both with engineering degrees from the same University). She had more job offers upon graduation at higher starting salaries than he did. She has been promoted twice in her first year with the company.

My son in High school is also planning on studying engineering. He participates in robotics. I can tell you that because of the push for girls in STEM, his all boy robotics team is consistently overlooked for awards. They simply do far superior work in their engineering notebook, design, build quality and innovation etc. than other female teams but they are not considered for awards because they are all white males. One of the official suggested criteria the judges are to use is “how is diversity represented by the members of the team”

My boss (at a Fortune 500 company) worked in recruiting/personnel for many years. He was ordered to not hire many white males who were otherwise perfect candidates so that my company could show on their books that they rejected a high % of white males.

I hate to say it but I’d have to agree based on my experience.

One year at my business school the two graduating full-timers in my program who were women got all the job offers. Now maybe it was a coincidence but it certainly doesn’t support the belief that there’s all this discrimination against women out there.

I’m sorry you have been taught such a big whopper of a lie.

Ever read the book “how to lie with statistics”? You should.

Much of the pay imbalance is due to women leaving the workforce for years and then reentering at middle age. I have been in the workforce without leaving/reentering and I make the same or more than others in comparable positions in my company and comparable to industry averages.

Women who leave and return often start back at the beginning without outdated skills or less experience and less seniority.

Women also choose jobs that pay less-- less physical, less dangerous, less technical.

Two people in the same job role are going to fall within my company’s compensation range for that job. There will be variance between employees based on skills and experience.

Those are life choices, not discrimination.

I have no doubt that there are real imbalances in some places and with some individuals. But MASS pay discrimination, no.

Agreed.

I’ve heard this statistic (“59 cents for each dollar a man earns”) for years.

And I don’t doubt that many years ago there was significant pay discrimination. My mother worked in a factory for literally pennies per hour during World War II.

But I doubt that employers are purposely paying women less than men when they’re doing the same job side my side. I’ve never heard of an employer doing it in my lifetime. It’s unthinkable, not to mention illegal, that any employer would have a policy of hiring women at this rate and men at a higher rate for the same work.

 

[stinkcat_14]

I’ve heard this statistic (“59 cents for each dollar a man earns”) for years.

And I don’t doubt that many years ago there was significant pay discrimination. My mother worked in a factory for literally pennies per hour during World War II.

But I doubt that employers are purposely paying women less than men when they’re doing the same job side my side. I’ve never heard of an employer doing it in my lifetime. It’s unthinkable, not to mention illegal, that any employer would have a policy of hiring women at this rate and men at a higher rate for the same work.

People who cite statistics like this usually lack all understanding of statistics, because such statistics are almost meaningless.

In the study below, 75% of the pay differential can be explained by lower productivity. For the remaining 25%, married women with children are significantly less productive, which explains their lower pay. Not terribly surprising for anyone who has children, if you go to work with less sleep because your kids are sick, you will be less productive. Now, married women without children are not less productive, but they are paid like married women with children.

sites.northwestern.edu/ype202/files/2015/09/Download-Job-Market-Paper-PDF-2741r0z.pdf

 

[Bspencer]

This is one of the best posts I have read on CA !!! I love the responses !!

I agree that the ‘white privelege’ stuff is ****, and I hate that people are guilted into being ashamed of who he/she is.

Today, a business is in business to advance its cause.
It hires the person thought to best advance this mission.

Proof? OP, go apply to play point guard in the NBA. You think an owner is going to say ‘finally, a white guy to run my team!’ Owners want the best players on their teams. As it is at this time, most of those guys are black. Not a racist thing. Just the way it is. if a white guy is good enough he’ll get drafted-- bill walton, doug mc dermott, etc.

you got hired because the employer thought you were the best candidate to advance their cause. why in the world would you be ashamed of the work you did to put yourself in that position.

no doubt, there will always be inequalities and unfairness in the world.

you didnt cause it.

go to work.

love your job.

honor God with your good fortune.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

anecdote, not data:
I’m in an occupation that is predominantly male; there are very, very few women who do what I do for a living. I can say the working conditions can be pretty dang uncomfortable, dirty, sweaty or freezing, often requires lifting objects, climbing ladders, operating hand tools, good risk of injury, etc. It is very definitely skilled work, not for the newbies without training as I see new guys wash out routinely. It pays the bills for the men who brave the conditions, but I totally get why women would not want to do it and I wouldn’t dream of making them do it. But understand I get paid more for taking that on, for the skill level I bring to the job while the typical woman who works at my companies sits in an office doing desk work, mostly clerical, HR or help desk related, for which they are going to get paid less because their jobs require less skill. Am I going to apologize for taking this job? No way.

 

[katiesonlyson]

anecdote, not data:
I’m in an occupation that is predominantly male; there are very, very few women who do what I do for a living. I can say the working conditions can be pretty dang uncomfortable, dirty, sweaty or freezing, often requires lifting objects, climbing ladders, operating hand tools, good risk of injury, etc. It is very definitely skilled work, not for the newbies without training as I see new guys wash out routinely. It pays the bills for the men who brave the conditions, but I totally get why women would not want to do it and I wouldn’t dream of making them do it. But understand I get paid more for taking that on, for the skill level I bring to the job while the typical woman who works at my companies sits in an office doing desk work, mostly clerical, HR or help desk related, for which they are going to get paid less because their jobs require less skill. Am I going to apologize for taking this job? No way.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. Sounds a lot like my present job that I’m trying to leave. There’s a running joke that “if you don’t come back bleeding, don’t come back”, referring to how cut up we all regularly get. Be careful out there, Praying for you.

 

[Brendan]

I
I’ve heard this statistic (“59 cents for each dollar a man earns”) for years.
.

I remember having a conversation about that back in college. A female student was complaing about the pay discrepancy you mentiuon.

I asked her what her major was, she replied “Library Science”. I stated that I was an Engineering student, and asked if she expected there to be a difference in pay between a librarian and an engineer. She said that their was.

I asked how that would affect this statistic, me being male making substantially more than her, a female.

Her reply was “well that’s different” but could not explain why.

 

[Mongo]

This post has to be a joke. There is no way anyone thinks like this because it is the most ridiculous idea I have ever seen. Now white kids are ashamed that they are white and have the opportunity to succeed? If this is for real then we are in real trouble as a culture.

 

[signit]

I remember having a conversation about that back in college. A female student was complaing about the pay discrepancy you mentiuon.

I asked her what her major was, she replied “Library Science”. I stated that I was an Engineering student, and asked if she expected there to be a difference in pay between a librarian and an engineer. She said that their was.

I asked how that would affect this statistic, me being male making substantially more than her, a female.

Her reply was “well that’s different” but could not explain why.

Good post. I had a conversation about that with some women about that once, too, and it ended with them shouting at me.

And, I did some more checking on that 59 cents statistic.

It was based on 1963.

 

[Sarcelle]

I remember having a conversation about that back in college. A female student was complaing about the pay discrepancy you mentiuon.

I asked her what her major was, she replied “Library Science”. I stated that I was an Engineering student, and asked if she expected there to be a difference in pay between a librarian and an engineer. She said that their was.

I asked how that would affect this statistic, me being male making substantially more than her, a female.

Her reply was “well that’s different” but could not explain why.

I have a physics degree but I work as an engineer. I still get paid the same as people with engineering degrees.

Another factor to consider is what industry you work in as an engineer. A lot of variables come into play when it comes to pay.