Morality vs. white male privilege

[Brendan]

Another factor to consider is what industry you work in as an engineer. A lot of variables come into play when it comes to pay.

I know, my wife’s cousin got his degree in Petroleum Engineering. He started at over 100k, and that was almost 20 years ago.

Then again, he spends his life living on oil rigs in the North Sea or Gulf, Alaskan ridge lines, or in the Middle East.

When he graduated in 1999, his college had not graduated a female Petroleum engineer ever.

 

[Sarcelle]

I know, my wife’s cousin got his degree in Petroleum Engineering. He started at over 100k, and that was almost 20 years ago.

Then again, he spends his life living on oil rigs in the North Sea or Gulf, Alaskan ridge lines, or in the Middle East.

When he graduated in 1999, his college had not graduated a female Petroleum engineer ever.

Interesting.

The only petroleum engineer I know is female.

She works for Shell and draws a nice paycheck.

I once applied for a job in the defense industry where I would have to move to Kwajalein, a tiny island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. This was for missile defense. It was good pay and I was single so I had no impediments.

The job was canceled due to cutbacks in the defense industry. I still wonder if I would have liked the job.

 

[didymus]

Hello, I am struggling with a decision and hope someone can help. I am 43 and come from a modest working-class background. Recently, I completed a 2-year degree at community college in order to start a new career in computer programming (25 years of computer programming has exacted a physical toll). Currently I am doing some small volunteer projects to gain experience in the field, but job opportunities have now started coming my way.

On its face, this might seem like great news. However, there is a distinct ethical problem. I am a white american male. I understand that, with these traits, I enjoy a multitude of benefits and opportunities that women and people of color do not. For instance, white males in america are offered employment much more readily than others and are compensated at higher rates. Unemployment for whites is currently 3 percent, while it is 26 percent for African-Americans.

Taken to its ultimate conclusion you shouldn’t take any job at all.
But let’s suppose that all the arguments about white male privilege are true. The onus is on the employer not to discriminate based on race, sex, &c. not on you to avoid being hired.

 

[djames99]

There is much more at play here. The problem has underlying issues that could alleviate their conditions. Family structure is one. I don’t have statistics, but I think it is accurate to say there is a disproportionate ratio of unmarried mothers in that segment. There is a temptation to point the cause of this to poverty, but we know there are also poor happy families. To no fault, and some cases fault, mothers need to leave the children alone so they can work to support the family, and so the children raise themselves. They are exposed to all negative elements in society. These are the candidates that you speak of. Without proper schooling and education on social mores they turn out adults that you describe. In a great majority, we see the beginnings of life for the children of these families who are exposed to it, transient and immature fathers who are simply breeders, and indifferent and underaged mothers influenced by drugs. It is a recipe for disaster.

This creates illiterate people who think they can bypass entry qualifications. Once past, the attitude effects come to the forefront. More and more colleges are pressured to lower their standards in favor of their claimed rights. One can even hear the effect through the corruption of the English language and grammar.

It’s going to take a rebuild from the ground up. The first to be addressed is to rebuild the family structure and remove all it’s enemies. Discrimination will be there to prevent change, but will eventually diminish as the quality of their lives improve.

Getting out of the ‘police the globe’ mentality is taxing these families. Pull the soldiers back. I think the independant america of the late 30’s and 40’s is what is required now. Put that money back into repairing damage at home.

 

[styrgwillidar]

People who cite statistics like this usually lack all understanding of statistics, because such statistics are almost meaningless.

In the study below, 75% of the pay differential can be explained by lower productivity. For the remaining 25%, married women with children are significantly less productive, which explains their lower pay. Not terribly surprising for anyone who has children, if you go to work with less sleep because your kids are sick, you will be less productive. Now, married women without children are not less productive, but they are paid like married women with children.

sites.northwestern.edu/ype202/files/2015/09/Download-Job-Market-Paper-PDF-2741r0z.pdf

hbr.org/2015/11/how-the-gender-pay-gap-widens-as-women-get-promoted

“When we control for all factors that influence compensation outside of gender (i.e. job title, location, years of experience, education, company size, management responsibilities, skills, etc.), the gender pay gap for men and women overall shrinks to 97 cents on the dollar. However, the gap widens for certain groups of female workers, and not the ones you’d necessarily expect — executives, women with children, and women who hold higher degrees. For example, women with PhDs earn 95 cents for every dollar their male colleagues earn.”

So, in the US women with the same experience, work history, and in the same type of jobs working for the same size companies have a 3% difference in pay. Which widens to 6.1 per-cent at the executive level according to the study, which has been replicated in a number of other studies.

 

[stinkcat_14]

hbr.org/2015/11/how-the-gender-pay-gap-widens-as-women-get-promoted

“When we control for all factors that influence compensation outside of gender (i.e. job title, location, years of experience, education, company size, management responsibilities, skills, etc.), the gender pay gap for men and women overall shrinks to 97 cents on the dollar. However, the gap widens for certain groups of female workers, and not the ones you’d necessarily expect — executives, women with children, and women who hold higher degrees. For example, women with PhDs earn 95 cents for every dollar their male colleagues earn.”

So, in the US women with the same experience, work history, and in the same type of jobs working for the same size companies have a 3% difference in pay. Which widens to 6.1 per-cent at the executive level according to the study, which has been replicated in a number of other studies.

The 3-6% gap is pretty small when you consider that there are several factors that influence pay that the researchers could not measure, such as individual productivity.

 

[Usige]

hbr.org/2015/11/how-the-gender-pay-gap-widens-as-women-get-promoted

“When we control for all factors that influence compensation outside of gender (i.e. job title, location, years of experience, education, company size, management responsibilities, skills, etc.), the gender pay gap for men and women overall shrinks to 97 cents on the dollar. However, the gap widens for certain groups of female workers, and not the ones you’d necessarily expect — executives, women with children, and women who hold higher degrees. For example, women with PhDs earn 95 cents for every dollar their male colleagues earn.”

So, in the US women with the same experience, work history, and in the same type of jobs working for the same size companies have a 3% difference in pay. Which widens to 6.1 per-cent at the executive level according to the study, which has been replicated in a number of other studies.

This quote from the cited article matches my experience

One thing to keep in mind is that women tend to initiate negotiations four times less often than men and ask for about 30% less when they do negotiate, according to Linda Babcock and Sara Laschever’s Women Don’t Ask.

The problem with any type of sociological study is that you can’t account for every variable. For instance I don’t know that I have personally ever seen a study that asks:

1. 
   *]Have you requested a raise in the last 2 years?
   *]If so, what percentage did you ask for?
   *]Did you receive the raise requested?
   *]If not did you receive a lower raise? If so what percentage?
   *]If you received a lower offer than requested did you accept or try to negotiate a higher percentage?
   
   In my experience men are more likely to negotiate and counter any low offer which might explain a good portion of the 3-6% gap. If a study like the above were done it might help identify if it has to do with negotiation rather than gender specifically.

 

[styrgwillidar]

This quote from the cited article matches my experience

The problem with any type of sociological study is that you can’t account for every variable. For instance I don’t know that I have personally ever seen a study that asks:

1. 
   *]Have you requested a raise in the last 2 years?
   *]If so, what percentage did you ask for?
   *]Did you receive the raise requested?
   *]If not did you receive a lower raise? If so what percentage?
   *]If you received a lower offer than requested did you accept or try to negotiate a higher percentage?
   
   In my experience men are more likely to negotiate and counter any low offer which might explain a good portion of the 3-6% gap. If a study like the above were done it might help identify if it has to do with negotiation rather than gender specifically.

1. 
   I tend to agree with you… note the more senior one gets, the larger the gap. Most lower level jobs are a set wage, the ability to negotiate a salary increases as you go up the ladder.
   
   It’s something noticed by firms assisting military folks transitioning. Military, coming from a set wage system, tend to be weak at negotiating salary when transitioning. Typically they were settling for wages below the industry averages regardless of the industry type. So those transition assistance firms/programs include a section on negotiating compensation.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

This quote from the cited article matches my experience

The problem with any type of sociological study is that you can’t account for every variable. For instance I don’t know that I have personally ever seen a study that asks:

1. 
   *]Have you requested a raise in the last 2 years?
   *]If so, what percentage did you ask for?
   *]Did you receive the raise requested?
   *]If not did you receive a lower raise? If so what percentage?
   *]If you received a lower offer than requested did you accept or try to negotiate a higher percentage?
   
   In my experience men are more likely to negotiate and counter any low offer which might explain a good portion of the 3-6% gap. If a study like the above were done it might help identify if it has to do with negotiation rather than gender specifically.

1. 
   Women are penalised much harder for seeking a raise.

 

[Usige]

Women are penalised much harder for seeking a raise.

Is there anyway to quantify what “penalised much harder” actually means though? I’m not saying if it’s true or false, but it’s one of those things that come off imprecise or anecdotal. In other words might a man simply be told no, where a woman is fired? Are women getting fired or demoted left and right, but I’m too dense to notice?

In salary negotiations I have never penalized anyone for asking for a raise. There was one of four outcomes:

1. 
   *]Yes; raise granted.
   *]Maybe, but you need to provide a business justification.
   *]No; but I can give you X.
   *]No, your work/performance doesn’t justify it at this time.
   
   I’m not saying there aren’t vindictive people out there, but in 20 years in business I can honestly say those types are by in far the minority in my experience. Perhaps it’s simply because I work in a professional environment and areas such as retail or academia are more vindictive? I can only tell you what experience has shown me with regard to why there are pay differences.

 

[ARCHERXP]

It seems to be a touchy subject nowadays, but as a minority, I don’t personally look at my ethnicity as some sort of impediment.

I grew up in South Carolina, and by God’s grace and my cooperation, I’ve been blessed beyond measure.

I attended The Citadel, which incidentally is in the news for racism, but not once did I felt that my race was a hindrance to achieving my goals.

I would be insulted if I competed against somebody because they pitied me because of some physical trait. Even more insulting would be if they decided to give up because of some self-imposed guilt.

My family and I came to this country for the sheer reason that a person can determine their social destination through will and perseverance.

Just my two cents.

 

[maryjk]

Women are penalised much harder for seeking a raise.

In what way?

I’ve never been penalized simply because I asked for a raise. In fact, every time I have asked for a raise I have received one.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Nobody ever hires anyone unless the employer believes the employee will contribute value above and beyond his cost. The “beyond his cost” part goes to a lot of places in addition to the employer’s pocket. It goes into production of the means of production, salaries of those folks, purchaes of all kinds, and banks. There are minorities working (or who want to be working) in each and every one of those places where the “surplus value” goes. Perhaps one might one consider it one’s moral duty to produce more than one consumes, because other people depend on that which I produce but don’t consume. In fact, I do consider it a moral duty.

Let the employer, the government and God decide how to distribute jobs. I think the poster is a bit too “micro” in the scheme of things to be worrying about how he might affect how all of that works out.

 

[Theo520]

I think you are imagining your ‘white privilege’ in the field of programming. Most hiring companies care about performance and cost, they will readily hire H1-B visa employees if they can (usually non-white), or outsource the work to predominantly non-white programmers. Just look at the recent outsourcing news from Disney as a case in point.

I think you also misunderstand the BLM movement, they are focused on policing practices in major metropolitan areas. They have a valid point that their city and county political leadership have not well represented their interests. A case in point here would be Chicago, where Rahm withheld video that would have put his administration in a bad light. It’s only now, with the release of the video, that reforms are being demanded and his administration is being held accountable.

Neither of these are your moral responsibility, unless perhaps you supported Rahm’s reelection.

Hello, I am struggling with a decision and hope someone can help. I am 43 and come from a modest working-class background. Recently, I completed a 2-year degree at community college in order to start a new career in computer programming (25 years of computer programming has exacted a physical toll). Currently I am doing some small volunteer projects to gain experience in the field, but job opportunities have now started coming my way.

On its face, this might seem like great news. However, there is a distinct ethical problem. I am a white american male. I understand that, with these traits, I enjoy a multitude of benefits and opportunities that women and people of color do not. For instance, white males in america are offered employment much more readily than others and are compensated at higher rates. Unemployment for whites is currently 3 percent, while it is 26 percent for African-Americans.

Is it moral for a person like myself to entertain job prospects? In my research I’ve read that any opportunity I take will be one that is not given to a lesser-privileged person. I would really have a problem robbing someone of an opportunity. My mentor (who is Nativ-American) has said that I should try to be as successful as possible, and then use that success to mentor minority youths - thereby creating more opportunities for them. That sounds good in the long term, but it does not solve the ethical problem of my white male privilege continuing as a tool of oppression in the near term.

When visiting the US, Father Francis showed signs of pride in the Black Lives Matter movement, who have recently demanded a greater degree of equality in america. However, I’m not sure how long I can continue to support myself with construction labor. Not seeking validation or “go for it” just to be “nice”. It’s a serious problem and I honestly don’t know what to do.

Thank you and Peace be with you.