Morality? What morality?

[Betterave]

You are the mistaken one… it is similar to the stepping of the friend. I am walking to reach my goal and my friend budges in and I end up hurting him. I do not forsee the injury of my friend (it could be anyone else for that matter), in the scenario I thought you presented, the bodyguard wanted to stop the murder of the president without intending to kill the other party, which is why I mentioned other possibilities like shooting at the arm or shooting at the weapon, etc… this does not forsee the killing of the “assassin”. If he does not intend to kill the assassin he may still be justified, but he still owes an apology to God for having killed another human being, just like I still owe an apology for hurting my friend, even if he budged in my way. His injury was unintended by me.
There are differences between the two scenarios, no doubt, but the principle of not doing harm to human life is still there.

You don’t know what you’re talking about. Let me repeat, Daniel: An action that is not voluntarily chosen cannot possibly be the subject of a moral analysis.

If I apologize for accidentally stepping on your toes, that does not imply that I am morally culpable for accidentally stepping on your toes. The bodyguard does not owe God an apology for successfully fulfilling his legitimate duty to protect the president - that is nonsense. Where are you getting that from?

 

[Betterave]

Will you accept the Catholic Encyclopedia?

Suicide is the act of one who causes his own death, either by positively destroying his own life, as by inflicting on himself a mortal wound or injury, or by omitting to do what is necessary to escape death, as by refusing to leave a burning house. From a moral standpoint we must treat therefore not only the prohibition of positive suicide, but also the obligation incumbent on man to preserve his life.

How about the CCC?

2280-2281 bolding mine

Are you seriously that…@#$?!? Wow!

So you think that the Church teaches that Jesus and St. Maximilian Kolbe died by committing acts (suicide) that “contradicted the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life”; were “gravely contrary to the just love of self”; “likewise offended love of neighbor because it unjustly broke the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which they continued to have obligations”; and were “contrary to love for the living God”???

I’m stumped, buddy.

 

[dskysmine]

What is that supposed to mean?

Every time i made a question regarding the “choices” or the situation you described your answer was always “it’s my scenario”… so I had to make a ridiculous analogy trying to show you that your exercise was futile.

Thanks for playing. Could we continue? Suppose Jesus replied to you:

You ask me to guide you, but I am trying to guide you! Why are you being so stubborn?

You made me like this =)

Now where has Betterave insulted you?

He called me names like douche and others.

If he has spoken wrongly, testify to the wrong - say where he is wrong; if he has not, then why do so haughtily dismiss him and accuse him of insulting you?

What does insulting have to do with him being wrong?

Why do you claim that you are only certain of me, then clearly imply that you are just as certain of what “fits” with “what is justifiable”?

As far as You told me we are to speak “Yes and No” no maybes. You are the God of Life, so it is not my decision that can decide wether someone should die or not. I must do no Evil. Just like You died on the cross injustly, I also must leave my life in your hands.

I just told you to stop spouting foolish nonsense, and yet you go right back to assuming that your foolish nonsense is the truth!

[as if that is what Jesus would say] My Lord, what is my foolishness in valuing Your work through respect of Life?

You are very wrong to do so, but I can understand that within your limited understanding you feel justified in dismissing Betterave - he is not me, and it is antecedently possible that he might be wrong - but you dismiss *me *just as quickly, despite your false display of servility!
Now what would you say?

I don’t feel justified in dismissing Betterave, I love him like I would myself. I want him to know You and the greatness of Your love towards everyone. That is why I keep trying to show him the path of Life. He seems to be stuck to some kind of word game. I pray that You may guide Him to value the life of everyone just like You do.

Hugs,
Daniel

 

[dskysmine]

You don’t know what you’re talking about. Let me repeat, Daniel: An action that is not voluntarily chosen cannot possibly be the subject of a moral analysis.

Every human action is the subject of moral analysis. If it wasn’t then morality would indeed be subjective.

If I apologize for accidentally stepping on your toes, that does not imply that I am morally culpable for accidentally stepping on your toes.

You are morally culpable of stepping on my toes, but your culpability is greatly diminished by lack of intent and the amount of care you dedicated to it.

The bodyguard does not owe God an apology for successfully fulfilling his legitimate duty to protect the president - that is nonsense. Where are you getting that from?

He owes God an apology for killing another human being whether he meant it or not, not from protecting the president.

I am getting this from the sacredness of Life.

 

[jonfawkes]

Are you seriously that…@#$?!? Wow!

So you think that the Church teaches that Jesus and St. Maximilian Kolbe died by committing acts (suicide) that “contradicted the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life”; were “gravely contrary to the just love of self”; “likewise offended love of neighbor because it unjustly broke the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which they continued to have obligations”; and were “contrary to love for the living God”???

I’m stumped, buddy.

Well I liked to get @#$?!? but without a scale I don’t know how @#$?!? I am. Seems a good amount though.

I think the Christ at the minimum is a wash - Per our previous discussion - (two natures, two wills) there are two acts, because of the two natures.

His divine nature has the power over life and death per the CCC

It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life

His human nature doesn’t do anything to avoid His death. So is the equivalent of suicide.

One would think that the divine nature would precedence over the human but that would devalue the human nature so… I’ll say (again) it’s a wash.

Maximilian is a suicide without question. He did save a life by his suicide but a suicide none the less. Even church fathers did some linguistic acrobatics to classify him as a “martyr”. From what I’ve read he seems like a misguided zealot who pined for death. The Nazis gave him his opportunity.

books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=qLEL6sRgVGoC&dq=Saints+on+Earth&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=1iJ2oks1tI&sig=wZqCQ869H-sw84RTBmKZRIuk_bw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#v=snippet&q=kolbe&f=false

That night, I asked the Mother of God what was to become of me. Then she came to me holding two crowns, one white, the other red. She asked me if I was willing to accept either of these crowns. The white one meant that I should persevere in purity, and the red that I should become a martyr. I said that I would accept them both.

 

[Betterave]

Well I liked to get @#$?!? but without a scale I don’t know how @#$?!? I am. Seems a good amount though.

I think the Christ at the minimum is a wash - Per our previous discussion - (two natures, two wills) there are two acts, because of the two natures.

His divine nature has the power over life and death per the CCC

His human nature doesn’t do anything to avoid His death. So is the equivalent of suicide.

One would think that the divine nature would precedence over the human but that would devalue the human nature so… I’ll say (again) it’s a wash.

Maximilian is a suicide without question. He did save a life by his suicide but a suicide none the less. Even church fathers did some linguistic acrobatics to classify him as a “martyr”. From what I’ve read he seems like a misguided zealot who pined for death. The Nazis gave him his opportunity.

books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=qLEL6sRgVGoC&dq=Saints+on+Earth&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=1iJ2oks1tI&sig=wZqCQ869H-sw84RTBmKZRIuk_bw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#v=snippet&q=kolbe&f=false

Okay, then! Nuff said about that. The only question remaining is why you call yourself a Catholic?

 

[Betterave]

Every time i made a question regarding the “choices” or the situation you described your answer was always “it’s my scenario”… so I had to make a ridiculous analogy trying to show you that your exercise was futile.

But you showed no such thing! And let’s be honest: you didn’t “make questions” about my scenario; you modified it. You made an illegal move, argumentatively speaking. It seems you’re having great difficulty grasping that!

Let’s keep playing, if you don’t mind:

You made me like this =)

You’re blaming *me *for your shortcomings? Do you really think I haven’t heard that one before?

He called me names like douche and others.

And were you being a douche and others?

What does insulting have to do with him being wrong?

That is not an answer to my question! Again: If he has spoken wrongly, testify to the wrong - say where he is wrong; if he has not, then why do so haughtily dismiss him and accuse him of insulting you?

As far as You told me we are to speak “Yes and No” no maybes. You are the God of Life, so it is not my decision that can decide wether someone should die or not. I must do no Evil. Just like You died on the cross injustly, I also must leave my life in your hands.

Daniel, Daniel: that makes no sense! Why can’t you just admit when you are wrong? “Yes, I was wrong”; not “well what I really meant was I will rationalize whatever I believe by claiming (quite ludicrously) that you, Jesus, told me to believe it.” I certainly never told you that there could never be a time when you would have to kill. What prevarication!

[as if that is what Jesus would say] My Lord, what is my foolishness in valuing Your work through respect of Life?

[why wouldn’t he??] Refusing to protect life…? Pretending that those who do protect life sin by doing so…? You call that respect for life? That is not respect for life - that is fear of taking responsibility, that is a failure to respect life. Life is not merely in words, it is something *real *that must often be protected by actions.

I don’t feel justified in dismissing Betterave, I love him like I would myself. I want him to know You and the greatness of Your love towards everyone. That is why I keep trying to show him the path of Life. He seems to be stuck to some kind of word game. I pray that You may guide Him to value the life of everyone just like You do.

Daniel, are you really so hard of heart? When you keep “trying to show him the path of Life” instead of listening to what he is saying, that is what I mean by dismissing him. When you make the arrogant assertion that “he seems to be stuck to some kind of word game,” *that *is what I mean by dismissing him. And yet you claim that you don’t feel justified in dismissing him? Word games indeed! You heart is full of hypocrisy, little one. You grieve me. I love you and you grieve me.

 

[jonfawkes]

Okay, then! Nuff said about that. The only question remaining is why you call yourself a Catholic?

Why shouldn’t I? Because I don’t agree with you

 

[dskysmine]

But you showed no such thing! And let’s be honest: you didn’t “make questions” about my scenario; you modified it. You made an illegal move, argumentatively speaking. It seems you’re having great difficulty grasping that!

I asked questions in 253 and 257… don’t lie!

Let’s keep playing, if you don’t mind:

-.-…

You’re blaming *me *for your shortcomings? Do you really think I haven’t heard that one before?

I try my best to become better and do Your Will better =)

And were you being a douche and others?

My name is Daniel “Only the Lord is my judge”.

That is not an answer to my question! Again: If he has spoken wrongly, testify to the wrong - say where he is wrong; if he has not, then why do so haughtily dismiss him and accuse him of insulting you?

I have said where his argument was wrong… he told me I didn’t understand and that I was “the mistaken party”.

Daniel, Daniel: that makes no sense! Why can’t you just admit when you are wrong? “Yes, I was wrong”; not “well what I really meant was I will rationalize whatever I believe by claiming (quite ludicrously) that you, Jesus, told me to believe it.” I certainly never told you that there could never be a time when you would have to kill. What prevarication!

Actually you did. Several times to be truthful.
“Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.”
“Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”
“Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”
“Love thine enemies.”
etc…
Your acceptance of death is also the biggest testimony of accepting God’s Will towards our own death.

[why wouldn’t he??] Refusing to protect life…? Pretending that those who do protect life sin by doing so…? You call that respect for life? That is not respect for life - that is fear of taking responsibility, that is a failure to respect life. Life is not merely in words, it is something *real *that must often be protected by actions.

I never said that those who protect life sin by doing so, I said that those who kill go against the most sacred value, Life. I suggested several different actions that the bodyguard could do to still protect the president without intending to kill another human being, but Betterave kept saying they weren’t an option…

Daniel, are you really so hard of heart? When you keep “trying to show him the path of Life” instead of listening to what he is saying, that is what I mean by dismissing him. When you make the arrogant assertion that “he seems to be stuck to some kind of word game,” *that *is what I mean by dismissing him. And yet you claim that you don’t feel justified in dismissing him? Word games indeed! You heart is full of hypocrisy, little one. You grieve me. I love you and you grieve me.

Your Love has set me free. =)
Discovering flaws in someone else’s argument does not mean I love him any less. It is because I love him that I am trying to make him understand the joy of knowing that Your Will does not require us to enter into conflict with our nature, but that You forgive us either way, while that doesn’t make what wrong we did less wrong.
Before you go, please send Betterave a hug of good night. He doesn’t sound very warm.

Sincerely yours, Daniel

 

[Betterave]

I asked questions in 253 and 257… don’t lie!

-.-…

I try my best to become better and do Your Will better =)

My name is Daniel “Only the Lord is my judge”.

I have said where his argument was wrong… he told me I didn’t understand and that I was “the mistaken party”.

Actually you did. Several times to be truthful.
“Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.”
“Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”
“Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”
“Love thine enemies.”
etc…
Your acceptance of death is also the biggest testimony of accepting God’s Will towards our own death.

I never said that those who protect life sin by doing so, I said that those who kill go against the most sacred value, Life. I suggested several different actions that the bodyguard could do to still protect the president without intending to kill another human being, but Betterave kept saying they weren’t an option…

Your Love has set me free. =)
Discovering flaws in someone else’s argument does not mean I love him any less. It is because I love him that I am trying to make him understand the joy of knowing that Your Will does not require us to enter into conflict with our nature, but that You forgive us either way, while that doesn’t make what wrong we did less wrong.
Before you go, please send Betterave a hug of good night. He doesn’t sound very warm.

Sincerely yours, Daniel

Sounds like you wouldn’t accept correction from Jesus himself, you would just keep on begging questions and assuming that he is wrong. Oh well.

Daniel, let me explain the point of the little game I tried to play with you: You seem like a guy who thinks he can claim anything and simply justify it with, “I’m right because Jesus said so.” The point of having you imagine you were replying to Jesus himself was so you could offer some real reasons instead of the same old silly “I’m right because Jesus said so.” Unfortunately, it seems that you would tell even Jesus, if he attempted to correct you, “I’m right because you said so” - in other words, “I’ll ignore what you say because of what I think you said.”

 

[Betterave]

Why shouldn’t I? Because I don’t agree with you

Because you think Jesus’ death was a suicide, smart guy! (Along with the deaths of all the Christian martyrs, apparently!) And as you point out:

Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

Are you seriously so ignorant as to think that that position is not in fundamental contradiction with that of any sincere Catholic?

Anyway, you have no excuse for such ignorance, and that is why you shouldn’t pretend to be a Catholic - obviously the fact that you disagree with me is entirely incidental. Your making stupid suggestions like that shows how thoroughly dishonest and/or stupifyingly irrational you are.

 

[jonfawkes]

Because you think Jesus’ death was a suicide, smart guy! (Along with the deaths of all the Christian martyrs, apparently!) And as you point out:

Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

Are you seriously so ignorant as to think that that position is not in fundamental contradiction with that of any sincere Catholic?

Anyway, you have no excuse for such ignorance, and that is why you shouldn’t pretend to be a Catholic - obviously the fact that you disagree with me is entirely incidental. Your making stupid suggestions like that shows how thoroughly dishonest and/or stupifyingly irrational you are.

ROFLMAO - Thanks for the analysis I haven’t been excommunicated, so you know where you can stick it (BTW save the “strawman” and “no true scotsman” for someone that will fall for it) - yer a hoot.

 

[sidbrown]

Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

Are you seriously so ignorant as to think that that position is not in fundamental contradiction with that of any sincere Catholic? .

Could there be cases where suicide supports the love of our neighbor to whom we have obligations? I can think of a case where a suicide would be offered to preserve the life and safety of our neighbors who would be seriously harmed if you did not commit suicide? Would suicide be justified in a case like that?

 

[dskysmine]

Sounds like you wouldn’t accept correction from Jesus himself, you would just keep on begging questions and assuming that he is wrong. Oh well.

Daniel, let me explain the point of the little game I tried to play with you: You seem like a guy who thinks he can claim anything and simply justify it with, “I’m right because Jesus said so.” The point of having you imagine you were replying to Jesus himself was so you could offer some real reasons instead of the same old silly “I’m right because Jesus said so.” Unfortunately, it seems that you would tell even Jesus, if he attempted to correct you, “I’m right because you said so” - in other words, “I’ll ignore what you say because of what I think you said.”

Me basing my answers in the Gospel is less accurate than you basing your answers in nothing?
Puhlease… If you can’t seriously find the answer to the question it’s obvious you are simply making your own morality as it suits you.
Take care,
Daniel

 

[jonfawkes]

Could there be cases where suicide supports the love of our neighbor to whom we have obligations? I can think of a case where a suicide would be offered to preserve the life and safety of our neighbors who would be seriously harmed if you did not commit suicide? Would suicide be justified in a case like that?

That is the story of Maximilian Kolbe.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_Kolbe

 

[Betterave]

Could there be cases where suicide supports the love of our neighbor to whom we have obligations? I can think of a case where a suicide would be offered to preserve the life and safety of our neighbors who would be seriously harmed if you did not commit suicide? Would suicide be justified in a case like that?

No, I don’t think so. What kind of case do you have in mind?

 

[Betterave]

ROFLMAO - Thanks for the analysis I haven’t been excommunicated, so you know where you can stick it (BTW save the “strawman” and “no true scotsman” for someone that will fall for it) - yer a hoot.

Yer as stupid as ever. Thanks, jon.

 

[Betterave]

Me basing my answers in the Gospel is less accurate than you basing your answers in nothing?
Puhlease… If you can’t seriously find the answer to the question it’s obvious you are simply making your own morality as it suits you.
Take care,
Daniel

You completely ignored my point, Daniel.

You should realize that with this ‘argument’ you are no different from some protestant Bible-alone rube ranting about how the Pope is the anti-Christ, since that’s what the Bible clearly shows.

 

[sidbrown]

No, I don’t think so. What kind of case do you have in mind?

So suicide is never justified, in any case?

 

[jonfawkes]

Yer as stupid as ever. Thanks, jon.

Awww you so mean Only if I was a ***real ***catholic like you