Morality? What morality?

[jonfawkes]

Where did I mention that doing a good thing would increase the chances of survival? I said that the result (life or death) was unattached to the choice/action behind the first one, and only the result (death) was attached to the choice/action behind the second one. WHen you jump on a grenade it doesn’t automatically mean you will die, it means that you are prepared to accept that result. In suicide you are not prepared for the result, which is why people get frustrated with failed suicide attempts. The risk of dying just by driving is not the same as jumping “into” a grenade but it still exists… should I stop driving? No!
Being alive is a necessity for you to die. Wanting to die makes it a suicide, not knowing you can die.

It is the physical act that makes it a suicide. It is self killing. Just as homicide is killing of another. Regardless if you are happy, prepared or any other emotion you’d like to attach to the outcome.

If they don’t die, it isn’t a suicide. No one was killed.

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-cide

-cide

Etymology

In sense 2, from French -cide, from Latin -cida (“cutter, killer”), from -cid (combining form of caedō (“cut, kill”)) + -a (“-er”) (used for form agent nouns). In sense 1 (now the primary sense), by extension from sense 2.
[edit] Suffix

-cide

1. Used to make nouns meaning the killing of the person or thing indicated by the first component of the word. (This applies to all of the derived terms listed below.)
2. Used to make nouns meaning a killer of the person or thing indicated by the first component of the word. (This applies to some, but not all, of the derived terms listed below.)

derived terms

* aborticide
* amicicide
* acaricide
* autocide
* avicide
* avunculicide
* bactericide
* biocide
* cervicide
* ceticide
* chronocide
* culicide
* deicide
* dominicide
* ecocide
* episcopicide
* excide
* famacide
* familicide
* felicide
* femicide
* feticide
* fratricide
* filicide
* fungicide
* genocide
* gendercide
* geriatricide
* germicide
* giganticide
* gonocide
* gynecide, gynaecide
* herbicide
* homicide
* hospiticide
* hosticide
* infanticide
* insecticide
* lapicide
* larvacide, larvicide
* liberticide
* lupicide
* mariticide
* matricide
* medicide
* microbicide
* mycocide
* muscicide
* nemacide, nematicide, nematocide
* omnicide
* ovicide
* parasiticide
* parenticide
* parricide
* pediculicide
* pesticide
* populicide	
* prolicide
* pulicicide, pulicide
* raticide
* regicide
* scabicide
* senicide
* sororicide
* spermicide
* suicide
* tenicide, teniacide
* tauricide
* tyrannicide
* uxoricide
* vaticide
* vermicide
* verspacide
* virucide, viricide
* vulpicide, vulpecide

 

[dskysmine]

You’re so full of it! You pretended that I have argued for an objective morality using only the expression, and I quote, “The Church says so.” So you are the one who is lying, yes?

Did I ever say those words were a quote? No…
It’s not a lie.

Right, I didn’t say it literally, i.e., I didn’t use that expression, as you claimed I did. I also did not imply it. If you want to claim I did, say where, and actually quote me (no more dishonesty from you, Daniel, please - I’m getting very tired of it).

You defended the Cathecism… as far as I know the Catholic Church recognizes an objective morality.

Doh! Daniel, trust me: I am the native English speaker, and I am an exceptionally competent one. (I got a perfect score on the language section of my grad school entrance exam, so stop being so presumptuous and arrogant.) Excusable means “can be excused”; it does not mean “must make excuses.” Likewise, ‘justifiable’ means “can be justified”; not “must make up (spurious) justifications.”

[IRONY]That’s why we always hear of justifiable love and justifiable charity, but never justifiable murder. [/IRONY]

I have to ask you: are you interested in learning here? I’m really getting disgusted with your presumption that you are right, even when you are obviously wrong and don’t have a clue what you are talking about.

The same to you.

Please go back to page 14 and read from there, if you really want to know.

Read it several times. If you really want to be courteous please indicate the number of that (seemingly inexistent) post.

NO, you have been obstinate; I have not. I have constantly tried to reason with you. And ‘pigheaded’ does not mean ‘pig’ - please look up words that you may not understand.

Etymology means anything to you?

I’ll tell you what you can do for me Daniel: What I said before. Drop the ego, drop the presumption that you’re right, be open to correction based on the assumption that you might be wrong. Don’t summarize my views inaccurately. Look up the following terms and do your utmost to avoid these fallacious argument forms: ignoratio elenchi, straw man, begging the question. Strive for humility in everything you write. That’s what you can do for me, and that’s what you can do for Jesus. Peace, brother.

I am doing what I can for you. Don’t presume I don’t know those terms. Peace is but one word when your other words mean so much more to the contrary.

[And please, my brother, seriously consider the possibility that our Lord is not pleased by your pharisaical prayers.]

“Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.” Matthew 5:11

Best wishes,
Daniel

 

[dskysmine]

It is the physical act that makes it a suicide. It is self killing. Just as homicide is killing of another. Regardless if you are happy, prepared or any other emotion you’d like to attach to the outcome.

If they don’t die, it isn’t a suicide. No one was killed.

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-cide

Then being born is considered “suicide”?
You don’t choose to be able to die… you just are!
Just like me driving can lead to me dying, me jumping into a grenade can lead to me dying.
That’s why we don’t call homicide to manslaughter for example. Intention is part of the act!

 

[jonfawkes]

Then being born is considered “suicide”?
You don’t choose to be able to die… you just are!
Just like me driving can lead to me dying, me jumping into a grenade can lead to me dying.
That’s why we don’t call homicide to manslaughter for example. Intention is part of the act!

Sounds like a death metal song - “Born to Die, Suicide!” That’s not what I’m saying though,

Self killing, suicide, is an intentional act. Both men fall on the grenade intentionally. If they don’t die, it’s not suicide. If they do die it is. They both intentionally put themselves in extreme mortal danger. The most probable outcome is death. Not guaranteed but most likely. They both accept the finality of their actions, and go to it willingly. One altruistically, one selfishly. If a third man falls on it accidentally, it’s not a suicide.

Homicide is the killing of another. Manslaughter is a type of homicide, Murder is another.

 

[dskysmine]

Sounds like a death metal song - “Born to Die, Suicide!” That’s not what I’m saying though,

Self killing, suicide, is an intentional act. Both men fall on the grenade intentionally. If they don’t die, it’s not suicide. If they do die it is. They both intentionally put themselves in extreme mortal danger. The most probable outcome is death. Not guaranteed but most likely. They both accept the finality of their actions, and go to it willingly. One altruistically, one selfishly. If a third man falls on it accidentally, it’s not a suicide.

Homicide is the killing of another. Manslaughter is a type of homicide, Murder is another.

Both men fall on the grenade but one’s intent is not death… I already told you that intention is part of the definition. He doesn’t intend to die. That is an unintended consequence, EVEN if it is foreseeable!

 

[jonfawkes]

Both men fall on the grenade but one’s intent is not death… I already told you that intention is part of the definition. He doesn’t intend to die. That is an unintended consequence, EVEN if it is foreseeable!

ok, hopefully for the last time - a popular euphemism for altruistic suicide is " he sacrificed himself" - which is what I think, you are alluding to.

So the problem he is trying to solve is:

How do I save my friends, now that there is a live grenade in our midst. I will sacrifice myself by falling on the grenade. I will take the majority of the concussion most likely resulting in my death, but I will save my friends.

We ok so far?

So now we have to look at what is he sacrificing? He is sacrificing himself.
What does the sacrifice entail? Giving up his life.
How does he give up his life? By falling on the grenade
Does it do it willingly? Yes
Does he end his own life? Yes

He willingly ends his own life which is the definition of suicide.

a : the act or an instance of taking one’s own life voluntarily and intentionally especially by a person of years of discretion and of sound mind

Yes, he does it for altruistic reasons. It is the greatest love we can show for our fellow man.

[BIBLEDRB]John 15:13[/BIBLEDRB]

I’m not saying there isn’t a difference in the morality or motivation for the two acts. All I am saying is they are the same physical act, and so by definition they are suicide = the willful taking of one’s own life.

What you are saying is all homicide is murder, which isn’t true. Homicide just means the killing of another human. We can judge the morality of the action by the motivation, not just the act. e.x. Murder vs Self Defense. The man committing suicide to save his friends is doing a moral good. The man committing suicide just to end his life is committing a moral evil.

 

[dskysmine]

ok, hopefully for the last time - a popular euphemism for altruistic suicide is " he sacrificed himself" - which is what I think, you are alluding to.

So the problem he is trying to solve is:

How do I save my friends, now that there is a live grenade in our midst. I will sacrifice myself by falling on the grenade. I will take the majority of the concussion most likely resulting in my death, but I will save my friends.

We ok so far?

So now we have to look at what is he sacrificing? He is sacrificing himself.
What does the sacrifice entail? Giving up his life.
How does he give up his life? By falling on the grenade
Does it do it willingly? Yes
Does he end his own life? Yes

He willingly ends his own life which is the definition of suicide.

No… the definition of suicide is intent on dying. It is not his intent to die, it is his intent to protect the life of his friends!

Yes, he does it for altruistic reasons. It is the greatest love we can show for our fellow man.

[BIBLEDRB]John 15:13[/BIBLEDRB]

I’m not saying there isn’t a difference in the morality or motivation for the two acts. All I am saying is they are the same physical act, and so by definition they are suicide = the willful taking of one’s own life.

What you are saying is all homicide is murder, which isn’t true. Homicide just means the killing of another human. We can judge the morality of the action by the motivation, not just the act. e.x. Murder vs Self Defense. The man committing suicide to save his friends is doing a moral good. The man committing suicide just to end his life is committing a moral evil.

Suicide is the intentional taking of one’s own life just like you quoted from Merriam Webster’s Dictionary the “intent” must be existent or else it doesn’t accomplish the definition (can’t you read the word “intent”?).

 

[tonyrey]

Really? You mean the Pope was not infallible?

No Pope has ever decreed that slavery is morally justifiable.

 

[jonfawkes]

No… the definition of suicide is intent on dying. It is not his intent to die, it is his intent to protect the life of his friends!

Suicide is the intentional taking of one’s own life just like you quoted from Merriam Webster’s Dictionary the “intent” must be existent or else it doesn’t accomplish the definition (can’t you read the word “intent”?).

The definition is:

a : the act or an instance of taking one’s own life voluntarily and intentionally especially by a person of years of discretion and of sound mind

By falling on the grenade he intentionally and voluntarily takes his own life thereby saving his friends. It’s suicide. Altruistic suicide. He meant to do it, it wasn’t an accident, by offering his death, he can save others.

 

[dskysmine]

The definition is:

a : the act or an instance of taking one’s own life voluntarily and intentionally especially by a person of years of discretion and of sound mind

By falling on the grenade he intentionally and voluntarily takes his own life thereby saving his friends. It’s suicide. Altruistic suicide. He meant to do it, it wasn’t an accident, by offering his death, he can save others.

He does not take his own life dude! I already told you that his intent is not death! If he lives you don’t call it “failed suicide attempt”.

 

[jonfawkes]

He does not take his own life dude! I already told you that his intent is not death! If he lives you don’t call it “failed suicide attempt”.

Why not? He tried to save them by attempting to offer up his life in exchange for theirs. Just because it didn’t work out that way just mean the act wasn’t a suicide. An attempted homicide is an attempted homicide, whether it is murder or self defense.

Anyway, If either of them live, you call them “Lucky”

 

[sidbrown]

No Pope has ever decreed that slavery is morally justifiable.

And what is your explanation for the papal Bull Romanus Pontifex (Nicholas V), January 8, 1455 which permitted the enslavement of Saracens and pagans?

 

[inocente]

He does not take his own life dude! I already told you that his intent is not death! If he lives you don’t call it “failed suicide attempt”.

Anyway, If either of them live, you call them “Lucky”

Still subscribed to the thread so I’ll jump back in.
*
*“Suicide: The process of purposely ending one’s own life.”

"Suicide (Latin suicidium, from sui caedere, “to kill oneself”) is the act of a human being intentionally causing his or her own death.”

“Suicide: the act of killing yourself intentionally, or a person who has done this.”**

You’re both right in that the guy falling on the grenade is by definition committing suicide, yet it’s probably not premeditated.

In Christianity the other guy offends against God, but for example samurai respected suicide as a atonement for failure and there were Buddhist monks who set themselves on fire to protest the Vietnam war. I think they along with your disagreement go some way to proving the OP’s point that there is no objective morality.

 

[Betterave]

’

No, I think you are missing the point.

It is the initial basis of the example - the very same physical act done with different motivations - you are changing the equation by changing the act.

Another example is Man A shoots Man B, Man C shoots man D. They are both homicides. One is justified, one is not, based on motivation. One is self defense, the other is murder. The physical act is the same, the morality is different.

Killing one’s self intentionally is suicide. The motivations are different, so the are morally different, but physically the same. That’s all.

Physical acts as such are never moral acts; therefore discussion of purely physical acts is irrelevant in any moral discussion. …And yes, you are *still *missing the point.

 

[Betterave]

The fact that you use a subjective reasoning for the definition of what a lie is continues to prove my point.

LOL! What is that supposed to mean? What “subjective reasoning”?

 

[Betterave]

Did I ever say those words were a quote? No…
It’s not a lie.

That’s what “used the expression” means. Sorry, bud, that’s a reality of the English language.

You defended the Cathecism… as far as I know the Catholic Church recognizes an objective morality.

Point being…??

[IRONY]That’s why we always hear of justifiable love and justifiable charity, but never justifiable murder. [/IRONY]

Huh? Dude, love is always justified; that implies that it is always justifiable. Again, just simple corollaries of the English language. (And I’m pretty sure Portuguese has the same grammatical structures and logical corollaries.)

The same to you.

Read it several times. If you really want to be courteous please indicate the number of that (seemingly inexistent) post.

Page 14 is surely good enough. Just go to where you and I start to exchange posts.

Etymology means anything to you?

LOL! I love etymology. How about you?

I am doing what I can for you. Don’t presume I don’t know those terms. Peace is but one word when your other words mean so much more to the contrary.

LOL! Are you implying that you cannot do what I asked?:
Drop the ego, drop the presumption that you’re right, be open to correction based on the assumption that you might be wrong. Don’t summarize my views inaccurately. Look up the following terms and do your utmost to avoid these fallacious argument forms: ignoratio elenchi, straw man, begging the question. Strive for humility in everything you write.

“Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.” Matthew 5:11

"13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” Luke 18

“If I have spoken wrongly, testify to the wrong; if I have not then why do you strike me?” - or in your case, Daniel, calumniate me?

 

[Betterave]

I’m not saying there isn’t a difference in the morality or motivation for the two acts. All I am saying is they are the same physical act, and so by definition they are suicide = the willful taking of one’s own life.

Again: we are discussing suicide as a *moral *act/category here, not suicide as a merely *physical *act.

 

[Betterave]

Still subscribed to the thread so I’ll jump back in.
*
*“Suicide: The process of purposely ending one’s own life.”

"Suicide (Latin suicidium, from sui caedere, “to kill oneself”) is the act of a human being intentionally causing his or her own death.”

“Suicide: the act of killing yourself intentionally, or a person who has done this.”**

You’re both right in that the guy falling on the grenade is by definition committing suicide, yet it’s probably not premeditated.

No, not by definition; by a misreading of the definition, which fails to understand the specific moral implications of the term ‘intentionally’ in this context.

In Christianity the other guy offends against God, but for example samurai respected suicide as a atonement for failure and there were Buddhist monks who set themselves on fire to protest the Vietnam war. I think they along with your disagreement go some way to proving the OP’s point that there is no objective morality.

Right. The Samurai regarded something as moral (although others disagree); therefore it *was *moral for them, since there is no objective morality. And since, as we have assumed, there is no objective morality, this goes some way to *proving *that there is no objective morality.

 

[Betterave]

And what is your explanation for the papal Bull Romanus Pontifex (Nicholas V), January 8, 1455 which permitted the enslavement of Saracens and pagans?

It seems to have permitted their enslavement as a legal remedy, essentially as a punishment for those guilty of “arms dealing.” Kind of like hard core community service as a penal sanction, instead of imprisonment or execution. Nothing to do with endorsing slavery as such, or permitting the enslavement of innocent Saracens and pagans.

What is your ‘explanation’ of it??

 

[jonfawkes]

Again: we are discussing suicide as a *moral *act/category here, not suicide as a merely *physical *act.

Again I pointing out that not all self killing is self murder. Some is, some isn’t. Just as all “other” killing (homicide) isn’t murder. Some is, some isn’t.