Morality without God?

[Leela]

whether you claim agnosticism, weak atheism, or theological noncognitivism, it does not matter. they are all forms of atheism.

negative or weak atheism is just an attempt to skirt the issue. it is akin to saying, “i don’t want to know”…i doubt that you are intellectually lazy, so why wouldn’t you want to know?

I don’t know what all those terms mean, but I’m not trying to skirt the issue. I would very much like to know if there is a God and if so, what God is like. I just don’t know and have come to doubt that God exists. But there is no proof that God does not exist.

i believe that you would like the protection of atheism in support of your anti-dogmatic, anti-religion, ‘human flourishing’ theories (no G-d to deal with)

but you don’t want the responsibility of defending the atheistic philosophy in this environment.

you are an atheist by definition (wikipedia, and others)

you can’t imply there is no G-d and then when confronted on the issue, claim that you are not an atheist, your something else, you cant have it both ways.

defend yourself

I’m okay with you calling me an atheist since I don’t believe in God, but there is nothing to defend. There is no such thing as “atheist philosophy.” Atheists have a lot of different beliefs. They just have the lack of belief in God or gods in comon.

But I am happy to defend my philosophy so long as we are dicussing my ideas and not “the atheist philosophy” which doesn’t exist.

Best,
Leela

 

[davidv]

I don’t know what all those terms mean, but I’m not trying to skirt the issue. I would very much like to know if there is a God and if so, what God is like. I just don’t know and have come to doubt that God exists. But there is no proof that God does not exist.

{snip}

Re: Highlighted statement. There are more than a few Catholic here who are more than willing to help you with this.

How has the evidence for God that you have been presented, fallen short?

 

[afriendofGod]

Leela, my name is afriendofGod. There is no right and wrong without moral agrument. God alone is the Source of all moral arguments and all morality. Everything beyond God is survival of the fittest. This survival is always a losing proposition precisely because there is a God. This is why Hitler was bound to lose, and this is precisely my argument for the existence of a Loving God Who won’t allow another “god” to win!

 

[reggieM]

Hi Reggie,

In what way do you think I do not take responsibility for my views?

Best,
Leela

Hi Leela,

We all have responsibility for what we proclaim and what we believe. I can understand that you’ve expressed some uncertainty and confusion, so you hesitate to fully affirm that you are an atheist.

But atheistic-materialistic philosophy comes with some harsh and severe consequences (logically) that adherents must account for, and take responsibility for.

All I am getting at is that fence-sitting, for any real length of time is not a reasonable option. Eventually, if you do not believe in God and do not want to pursue the evidence of God (and to your credit you are, indeed, trying to pursue that knowledge) you end up making a positive statement of atheism just due to the amount of time spent in non-belief and lack of interest in God.

But let’s look at the positive side. You rightly consider that there is some possibility that God exists. That is very good.

My point is that there’s a consequence and responsiblity there also. I hope that you will give your best effort to pursue that possiblity and see where it leads. In other words, you can’t say that this most important thing in your life (if God exists or not) is something that you can put off on seeking out and understanding.

The path for pursuing God and eventually finding Him includes a lot of aspects of human life itself. The evidence we can find is external (in the world around us), internal (understanding ouselves), communal (in the people around us) and with solitude also.

One important starting point (that you’ve already taken, admirably) is trusting others to some degree. It’s a recognition that others have some wisdom to share. It’s not blind faith in a person who makes claims but it’s accepting that there may be some truth in the testimony about God that other people make.

 

[reggieM]

I’m okay with you calling me an atheist since I don’t believe in God, but there is nothing to defend. There is no such thing as “atheist philosophy.” Atheists have a lot of different beliefs. They just have the lack of belief in God or gods in comon.

Usually, atheistic philosophy means that there is no God and no supernatural. So the natural world (molecules and matter) are all that exist.

When we speak about laws, as in moral laws, this always requires a law-giver.

When there is no God, there is still a law-giver but that is a human being or a community of humans (government or state).

 

[afriendofGod]

Without God, if the world were in human hands only, the world would have long ceased to be! God is the Savior of the world!

 

[Ender]

"Leela:

Morality functions to foster human flourishing through human solidarity, so from a pragmatists point of view, that is what morality is.

This definition equates morality with functionality: what is beneficial to the group is moral, what is harmful to the group is immoral. Or am I misunderstanding you?

I’d really like you to answer my question so I can understand your position; I can’t debate it until I know for sure what it is.

To me the fact that people feel guilty for things that are clearly not wrong and not feel guilty for things that are contrasry to human flourishing says that our moral intuitions can often be wrong.

You are correct that ones moral intuition (the conscience) can often be mistaken, just as ones rational decisions about what is beneficial can often be wrong. So: if I do what I think will increase human flourishing (can you come up with a better term?) but it turns out to be harmful, have I committed an immoral act?

Ender

 

[REALIST1]

Leela,
I cant believe Reggie calls you a fence sitter. I believe that probably 99% of the people here would call themselves religious moderates. That means they dont commit themselves wholey to the bible or the church. They take the pieces they want to fit their lifestyles. I dont believe they would stone their bride to death on her fathers doorstep on her wedding night if she is found to not be a virgin (as in the bible). And I’m sure most of them also do not believe in incest as the Bible allows or even slavery as the bible supports. I think the reflections in their mirrors would show them teetering on a fence!

 

[sedonaman]

A common belief among religious people is that atheism provides no basis for morality. … But that does not mean that without a belief in God there is no basis for morality.

Saying that “without a belief in God there is no basis for morality” is not the same as saying there is no morality without God.

If knowing what is good and what is evil and choosing the good is our definition of morality, and since God has “written on every human heart” at least some knowledge of what is good and evil, there could be no morality without God [assuming we would even exist without there being a God].

An atheist doesn’t believe in God, but that doesn’t mean God doesn’t exist.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

I don’t know what all those terms mean, but I’m not trying to skirt the issue. I would very much like to know if there is a God and if so, what God is like. I just don’t know and have come to doubt that God exists. But there is no proof that God does not exist.

I’m okay with you calling me an atheist since I don’t believe in God, but there is nothing to defend. There is no such thing as “atheist philosophy.” Atheists have a lot of different beliefs. They just have the lack of belief in God or gods in comon.

But I am happy to defend my philosophy so long as we are dicussing my ideas and not “the atheist philosophy” which doesn’t exist.

Best,
Leela

this is exactly what they mean, leela, you don’t address the direct argument, you just claim that it is not’ applicable to you

‘negative or weak’ atheism is exactly what you are claiming, this link will show you the terms.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#Strong_vs._weak

there is proof G-d exists, because an observable universe exists.
further i assert that He logically exists as a result of the ‘first cause argument’

please provide any arguments you have in denial of ‘first cause’
that they might be discussed.

nor am i using the term atheist as a pejorative, it is the descriptive term of your professed philosophy in support please refer to the provided link.

further your ‘theories’ hinge on the idea that there is no G-d, or if there is it does not matter.

the central question in all of this is the existence of G-d.

 

[REALIST1]

Can someone PLEASE explain why if the Bible is the word of a perfect God is there so many things in there that are what we now call immoral acts? Why does the bible contradict itself sooooo many times. Why doesnt the bible give us insight to science i.e. gravity the solar system etc…The bible does not state any level of thought greater than an average person of that day. Wouldnt the Bible or God make it sooo visible to us that there is no doubt? And if he allows room for doubt, why would he punish you forever for having doubt? Sounds like quite the Bully to me!1.) If Adam and Eve had children to start the population, who did the children have sex with to keep it going? Was there incest here?
“Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of this mother…” – Deuteronomy 27:22

“And if a man shall take his sister, his father’s daughter, or his mother’s daughter…it is a wicked thing…” – Leviticus 20:17
{ So here in the Bible incest is bad}. But read on …

[But what was god’s reaction to Abraham, who married his sister – his father’s daughter?] See Genesis 20:11-12

“And God said unto Abraham, As for Sara thy wife…I bless her, and give thee a son also of her…” – Genesis 17:15-16 Sounds like a contradiction to me.

2.) If Adam and Eve started it all, wouldn’t we all look pretty much the same? But insted we have whites, blacks, Hispanics, Asians, mediterraneans etc… Wouldn’t we all have the same DNA? Chromosones?

3.) Will the Earth be engulfed by the sun as it prepares to burnout in 5 billion years like all other stars that expand exponentially before their death?
“… the earth abideth for ever.” – Ecclesiastes 1:4

“… the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” – 2Peter 3:10 Hmmmmm, sounds like another contradiction.

4.) Have you ever tried to keep tropical fish alive in an aquarium? Its tough. And without electricity it would be impossible to keep the water cleaned/purified and the sodium levels correct. So how big was Noah’s Ark to keep 2 of every type of whale on board? And who was tending feverishly to these enormous aquariums? After all, rain is fresh water and if it rained that much it would have desalinated the oceans and none of the sea-life could have lived with such an imbalance. So 2 of all sea life had to be on board. As well as all 132,000 thousand species of beetles. Lets don’t forget the animals in the world that were in hibernation during round up time. How do you coax them out?
5). Have you ever been in a storm where it rained more than an inch an hour? It is a blanket of rain! Well if it rained 40 days and covered the mountain tops it would have had to rain 11 FEET an HOUR !!! Sorry but our atmosphere is incapable of holding that much liquid.

6). Have you ever seen God?
“… I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” – Genesis 32:30

“No man hath seen God at any time…”-- John 1:18  Hmmm, yet another contradiction!

7). Just how powerful is God?
“… with God all things are possible.” – Matthew 19:26

“…The LORD was with Judah; and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.” – Judges 1:19 If he is almightly and powerful then a measly chariot of IRON should be no problem ehhh??? Oh yeah almost forgot…another contradiction!

8). Is God for the death penalty …or just turn the other cheek?
"…thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. " – Exodus 21:23-25

“…ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” – Matthew 5:39  Contradiction again.

9). So did I really have to get cut???

 "This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised." -- Genesis 17:10

“…if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” – Galatians 5:2 
Oh yea… yet another contradiction/

10). Does God want us to be held responsible for the actions of our parents, or children???
“The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father…” – Ezekiel 18:20

“I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation…” – Exodus 20:5 Contradiction

11). Does God tempt us?
“Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.” – James 1:13

“And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham…” – Genesis 22:1
Contradiction

Do you have it in you to be 1 of God’s disciples?
“Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.” – James 1:13

“And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham…” – Genesis 22:1
I know I know…Contradiction!

12). Is it possible to rise from the dead?
"…he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more. " – Job 7:9

“…the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth…” – John 5:28-29 U guessed it…contradiction!

13). Was Jesus a false witness?
“If I [Jesus] bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.” (John 5:31)

“I [Jesus] am one that bear witness of myself…” (John 8:18)

 

[JDaniel]

I don’t know what all those terms mean, but I’m not trying to skirt the issue. I would very much like to know if there is a God and if so, what God is like. I just don’t know and have come to doubt that God exists.

Hello, Leela:

We have, to exhaustion, tried to explain it to you. But, you are asking for proof as if it could be codified into a sound bite. However, that’s not what you really want (we derive this from the type and manner of your argumentation and questioning).

What you really want is proof that can ONLY come from: sight (color/vision), sound (audio), smell (olfactory), taste (flavor), and feel (tactile). You’re asking for that which can’t be given, at least it probably won’t any more, and that won’t be given, based upon God’s desire for us to come to Him freely

If you really want to know if God is, then please pay attention to us. Some of us think, I will admit, that your motives are very suspect.

But there is no proof that God does not exist.

There is proof. You choose (from your exquisite, personal, interior self interests) not to listen.

Thomas Aquinas provided for us five proofs derived from both our knowledge of the sensible universe and logic, in combination with each other. That is precisely how humans “understand” things that can’t be dissected into its smallest bits by science.

St. Anselm has given us proof from our “way” of knowing.

The historical reality of people in our past, such as, Christ, Thomas, Peter, Paul, and all of the disciples and apostles, not to mention those responsible for Christ’s Passion.

The reality of the Hand of God in our lives, through morality, brotherhood, etc., including human flourishing. The hierarchies within ALL of these.

I and others could go on and on. To what ultimate purpose: to have you go all the way back to the beginning and start over again, postulating your arguments? Do you understand why you are suspect in our eyes?

Do we - all of us - sound like we are suffering from mass hysteria? Or, some grand delusion? Can you really rationalize that so many of us, far more intelligent than you and I, are all suffering from this delusion?

Have you seen one, single cogent argument that supports atheism? Agnosticism may be defensible from invincible ignorance, though, unfortunately, it is usually born of convenience and laziness. Secular humanism and all the rest are based in the sentiment, “What’s in it for me/us?”

I’m okay with you calling me an atheist since I don’t believe in God, but there is nothing to defend. There is no such thing as “atheist philosophy.” Atheists have a lot of different beliefs. They just have the lack of belief in God or gods in comon.

We are not calling you anything. You have attached that label to yourself. We have simply admitted and acknowledged it to be true.

But, you are wrong, atheism does have a “philosophy” of sorts, although it’s a short one! It states, “I can’t possibly know THEREFORE you can’t possibly know”. There are no other precepts or concepts.

But I am happy to defend my philosophy so long as we are dicussing my ideas and not “the atheist philosophy” which doesn’t exist.

What “phiolsophy” are you defending then?

Respectfully,
JD

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Leela,
I cant believe Reggie calls you a fence sitter. I believe that probably 99% of the people here would call themselves religious moderates. That means they dont commit themselves wholey to the bible or the church. They take the pieces they want to fit their lifestyles. I dont believe they would stone their bride to death on her fathers doorstep on her wedding night if she is found to not be a virgin (as in the bible). And I’m sure most of them also do not believe in incest as the Bible allows or even slavery as the bible supports. I think the reflections in their mirrors would show them teetering on a fence!

this post is all assertion and no arguments, are we too take your word for what we believe and what we don’t?

here ones assertions must be accompanied by some logical argument or evidence, so that they might be discussed.
(use mature judgment in this regard)

otherwise you are just blogging and that is more appropriately done elsewhere.

your statement reveals a lack of knowledge concerning what Catholics officially believe, you may find answers at this url

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=214374

knowing something about our faith will allow you to argue with us in a meaningful way.

don’t take me wrong, you are welcome to participate but to be taken seriously you have to know something about us

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Can someone PLEASE explain why if the Bible is the word of a perfect God is there so many things in there that are what we now call immoral acts? Why does the bible contradict itself sooooo many times.

scripture must be interpreted in the light of all scripture, that is the postion of the church.

just as a complicated contract

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Can someone PLEASE explain why if the Bible is the word of a perfect God is there so many things in there that are what we now call immoral acts? Why does the bible contradict itself sooooo many times. )

Scripture must be interpreted in the full light of the Scripture.

just like a contract, you cant properly interpret any one passage by itself, you have to read all the clauses and addendums in order to understand the contract.

further, the forum on Holy Scripture is a more appropriate forum for this post, people can enlighten you more specifically on scripture there.

 

[REALIST1]

Please!!! It says what it says. You did not even attempt to explain just 1 contradiction. Why dont you do this in all the areas of your life? If someone walks up to you on the street and says they are Jesus and they have came back. Your going to think he is a psycho homeless vagrant. You believed in Santa, and the tooth fairy. Why dont you believe in Zeus and Apollo and Poseiden? Or the Gods of the American Indians? Do you do rain dances? These are no different than your God. The only difference is that your God was used for centuries to torture and kill those who did not follow. No wonder it is soo ingrained. Do you believe in Muhammad? Buddah? See you are no less an atheist than me but by only 1 more God. How you view these other Gods is how we view yours. Do you see much difference? There were many religions before Catholicism all with the same story of a virgin birth and around Christmas time etc… How again if you want to try this time do you explain why your religion just piggy backed all these earlier followings/religions. Just trying to get some answers…thats all. I tried like crazy til my early 20’s to believe. I read the Bible I went to church. I sat down with my Pastor practically begging him to give me solid answers but when all the arguments come down to just “because”…sorry that is not good enough for me and should not be for anyone who cares about advancing society.

 

[JDaniel]

Can someone PLEASE explain why if the Bible is the word of a perfect God is there so many things in there that are what we now call immoral acts? Why does the bible contradict itself sooooo many times. Why doesnt the bible give us insight to science i.e. gravity the solar system etc…The bible does not state any level of thought greater than an average person of that day. Wouldnt the Bible or God make it sooo visible to us that there is no doubt? And if he allows room for doubt, why would he punish you forever for having doubt? Sounds like quite the Bully to me!1.) If Adam and Eve had children to start the population, who did the children have sex with to keep it going? Was there incest here?

Are you so arrogant (ignorant) that you, child (young, lacking education), can (ability) actually believe (hold a concept) that you are (exist, live) the first one (not tautological in the least) to have (hold) ever (for a really, really long time) brought up (regurgitated) such questions (no matter how insipid they may be)?

JD

 

[JDaniel]

My apologies to everyone. I simply cannot endure the foolish and the lazy.

JD

 

[Nepenthe]

Hm. While I do agree Realist1 is naive and underinformed, wouldn’t it be more constructive to simply answer his/her question rather than being snotty and insulting? It does seem to put you on the same level, the way you responded.

Oop, I started posting before your apology. Well done there. Though indeed, Realist1 really could use some tutoring here, yeah, maybe by somebody a little more patient.(Not saying that person is me, mind you, hehe - besides, I, uh actually do have an injured wrist and whew, that could take a LOT of typing, so there’s my shameless excuse!)

 

[JDaniel]

By the way, I’ve been recently thinking, and I believe that I just may have proven a case for frontal-lobotomies. More on that later.
Does anyone know what time it is? Oh! It appears that it’s time to libate.

JD