Morality without God?

[Nepenthe]

Excellent idea - I’ve been up since VERY early, so it’s not like one beer after being up for 9 hours is so terrible…maybe I shall as well.

 

[JDaniel]

Hm. While I do agree Realist1 is naive and underinformed, wouldn’t it be more constructive to simply answer his/her question rather than being snotty and insulting? It does seem to put you on the same level, the way you responded.

Oop, I started posting before your apology. Well done there. Though indeed, Realist1 really could use some tutoring here, yeah, maybe by somebody a little more patient.(Not saying that person is me, mind you, hehe - besides, I, uh actually do have an injured wrist and whew, that could take a LOT of typing, so there’s my shameless excuse!)

Nep:

There’s just not enough time! Don’t you see. We’d have to undo all of the previous damage and begin anew. The previous damage took, oh, at least 10 years. I’m afraid I won’t live that long.

JD

 

[JDaniel]

. . .indeed, Realist1 really could use some tutoring here, yeah, maybe by somebody a little more patient.(Not saying that person is me, mind you, hehe - besides, I, uh actually do have an injured wrist and whew, that could take a LOT of typing, so there’s my shameless excuse!)

Shhh. Maybe we could enlist someone who has not read this thread yet!

JD

 

[REALIST1]

Warppspeedpetey,
Did I get something wrong with believing that most on this site would consider themselves moderates? Are you a fundalmentalist? I live in a heavily Catholic area and know of no fundamentalist. So my reply to the fence-sitting I believe was right on. Im not sure where you were going with your reply to that ???
Peace and happiness to all!

P.S. Please anyone reading my threads here do not believe I’m an angry vengeful person. I’m extremely happy and outgoing, I just have always thirsted for answers as to why people turn such a blind eye to religion when they are soo skeptical to all other things in their life. It bewilders me. And it bothers me that we are sooo hamstring with scientific advancement in the U.S. due to religion.

 

[Mijoy2]

For me it comes down to the temporal vs the everlasting. If there is no God, there is no everlasting life. Life is temporal. I’d argue that something that is temporary is ultimatley without meaning.

One might counter with, “well if anything temporal is without meaning then hold you hand over a flame and tell me it is without meaning because eventually you will remove you hand”. Well this is true of course but, eventually, the act is forgotten and therefore, without meaning.

If everything eventually becomes meaningless, then what is to prevent me from taking my life savings and spending it all on drugs/alcohol and prostitutes? Why should I not do this if there is any inclination to do this?

Even if it may cause some pain for others (family members etc), in the long run it’ll all be forgotten.

I think I’d turn the question around to the atheist who claims we can and should be “moral” without a belief in God and ask him a few questions. Such as; why should we? How do you define “moral”? Can my definition of moral difffer from yours? And, if so, can my definition include my lifting your wallet if I feel the driving need to go visit a prostitute?

 

[buffalo]

Nep:

There’s just not enough time! Don’t you see. We’d have to undo all of the previous damage and begin anew. The previous damage took, oh, at least 10 years. I’m afraid I won’t live that long.

JD

I agree - it would be a daunting task. Perhaps we need a sticky that covers all of this. We could then just point these guys there.

I have a question - where do they get all this stuff? I have noticed some youngsters come post here with pretty much the same stuff. Is there one site that still maintains this thinking? Is it atheist 101?

I’ll give it a beginning shot -

A Proof of the Existence of God

 

[Nepenthe]

Just so you know, I’m not a theist myself! Or a youngster, for that matter. But I think any Catholic would be rather pleased by the state of my ethics and morality by their own standards - yes, they are a little different, but I live a fairly austere life, and do my utmost to be educated, loving and kindly.

That may or may not have been necessary to state, but I would not want those who might feel uncomfortable around nontheists to mistake me for either a Catholic (ie ‘not in the club’ by some peoples’ lights, sadly), or barbarically uneducated on matters of morality and so forth. We don’t have to be enemies!

 

[REALIST1]

JDaniel…Hmmmmm not even 1 attempt ehhhhh? So who is the LAZY 1? You have set back you whole life and believed all that is told to you. I was like that once too but then stepped out of that circle. A circle that is noot easy to step out of and takes REAL COURAGE. Time and time again religion, while in basis is understandable, is shown to only have a hold or grip when the ALMIGHTY is looking down and will punish you for not following orders. I apologize if I have missed answers to these questons here b4. I’m new to this site. Is there anyone that can answer those contradictions I listed before???

Peace and Happiness to all!!!

 

[Mijoy2]

. I sat down with my Pastor practically begging him to give me solid answers but when all the arguments come down to just “because”…sorry that is not good enough for me and should not be for anyone who cares about advancing society.

Hi Realist. I have read some of your posts. I used to feel precisely as you do now.

Have you read any of the following:

Mere Christianity - C.S.Lewis

or Everlasting Man - G.K Chesterton

or Orthodoxy - G.K Chesterton.

I’d recommened them all. In the order I have listen them. I understand where you are coming from. Been there.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Please!!! It says what it says. .

the first part of the problem is that you come from the protestant tradition.

they believe that it “says what it says” and that each man might make his own interpretation. (and thats not an argument to support your position, thats an unsupported assertion)

thats also why in the time since the supposed ‘reformation’ tens of thousands of denominations have sprung up in their wake, as each man disagrees with the next he starts his own group, yes that is a thouroughly confusing method.

as Catholics we believe in the magisterium of the Church, its teaching authority. if you want to know what Scripture means than you should look to that authority, of the faith, from which we draw or beliefs.

for us the Scripture is illuminated by both its full self and Sacred Tradition

so for us, indeed the Bible does not just “says what it says”, thats a protestant fallacy called Sola Scriptura. look it up if you care to.

which is why we don’t talk about ‘contradictions’ there are none, according to the magisterium you simply don’t know what we believe, nor do you seem inclined to learn before you speak on the topic.

further what do you believe would happen if there was some fallacy? would G-d not then exist?

does that change the basic rules of physics, would something suddenly start coming from nothing? thats seems unlikely

we are Catholics, we do not follow that current fashion called protestantism, we are the ancient faith.

once again you must research what we believe in order to make serious arguments.

simply making assertions as to what you think we believe will not lend weight to your arguments

and again, posts on Scripture rightly belong in the Scripture forum. there you will find people that are more inclined to the subject you wish to discuss. they will provide you with more complete answers

if you wish to participate in our discussion of this thread that is fine, but please restrict your self to posts germane to the immediate topic

 

[JDaniel]

Hm. While I do agree Realist1 is naive and underinformed, wouldn’t it be more constructive to simply answer his/her question rather than being snotty and insulting? It does seem to put you on the same level, the way you responded.

Nep:

It is in the nature of men (and, probably, women, too) to respond to people that are, on the tone scale of human endeavor, on the level of anger, from that same tone level? (The snide manner in which the post was written is efficient and sufficient cause for such a level of response.)

JD

 

[Mijoy2]

JDaniel…Hmmmmm not even 1 attempt ehhhhh? So who is the LAZY 1? You have set back you whole life and believed all that is told to you. I was like that once too but then stepped out of that circle. A circle that is noot easy to step out of and takes REAL COURAGE. Time and time again religion, while in basis is understandable, is shown to only have a hold or grip when the ALMIGHTY is looking down and will punish you for not following orders. I apologize if I have missed answers to these questons here b4. I’m new to this site. Is there anyone that can answer those contradictions I listed before???

Peace and Happiness to all!!!

Your contradictions can all be answered. Admittedly not be me. Probably like yourself I have to work for a living and (as much as I’d like) do not have the time to study Sacred Scripture nearly as much as I’d love to.

What I have found is that everytime I have truly attempted to undermine the teachings of the Church, when I have truly opened my heart to learning what the Church teaches and why, I have been humbled by how true and beautiful the teaching is.

It sounds like you have gone to inadequet resources in the past. Maybe you could try again.

 

[Nepenthe]

Oh, I know it, JD, and I did not mean to come across as being overly…rebukey? Heh, I just made that word up. I too can get impatient with, okay, I will say it, fools. Hence my retraction in response to yours, for example. I stand chastened as well.

 

[JDaniel]

I agree - it would be a daunting task. Perhaps we need a sticky that covers all of this. We could then just point these guys there.

I have a question - where do they get all this stuff? I have noticed some youngsters come post here with pretty much the same stuff. Is there one site that still maintains this thinking? Is it atheist 101?

I’ll give it a beginning shot -

A Proof of the Existence of God

The Sticky thing is a great idea. Probably. The problem is, each time that they do, they come with (at least some) very different misconceptions and pre-conceptions. That would make that task daunting as well.

Where they get this stuff from, why, probably public school, or, some slimy atheist blog or forum. It couldn’t possibly come from parents. If it did, surely their statements would be cogent.

JD

 

[Leela]

We all have responsibility for what we proclaim and what we believe. I can understand that you’ve expressed some uncertainty and confusion, so you hesitate to fully affirm that you are an atheist.

I don’t generally label myself an atheist for he same reason that you don’t acll yourself a nonalchemist or a nonracist. We don’t generally label ourselves based on what we don’t believe.

I do call myself a philosophical pragmatist.

But atheistic-materialistic philosophy comes with some harsh and severe consequences (logically) that adherents must account for, and take responsibility for.

I am not a materialist.

My point is that there’s a consequence and responsiblity there also. I hope that you will give your best effort to pursue that possiblity and see where it leads. In other words, you can’t say that this most important thing in your life (if God exists or not) is something that you can put off on seeking out and understanding.

Knowing whether or not there is a God is not anywhere near the most important thing in my life.

Best,
Leela

 

[Leela]

Leela, my name is afriendofGod. There is no right and wrong without moral agrument.

Hi friend,

I agree that we are talking about morality when we talk about rigt and wrong.

God alone is the Source of all moral arguments and all morality. Everything beyond God is survival of the fittest. This survival is always a losing proposition precisely because there is a God. This is why Hitler was bound to lose, and this is precisely my argument for the existence of a Loving God Who won’t allow another “god” to win!

I disagree that God is the source of moral arguments. I and others who do not believe in God are of course still concerned with morality.

Best,
Leela

 

[JDaniel]

Just so you know, I’m not a theist myself! Or a youngster, for that matter. But I think any Catholic would be rather pleased by the state of my ethics and morality by their own standards - yes, they are a little different, but I live a fairly austere life, and do my utmost to be educated, loving and kindly.

That may or may not have been necessary to state, but I would not want those who might feel uncomfortable around nontheists to mistake me for either a Catholic (ie ‘not in the club’ by some peoples’ lights, sadly), or barbarically uneducated on matters of morality and so forth. We don’t have to be enemies!

Nep:

Oh, that makes me so sad I will now start praying for you too.

And, you are quite right - we can remain friends.

Although you do realize, I hope, that we are commissioned to try to convert you - nicely; intelligently; reasonably; and, from time to time, some strong arm-twisting and neck-choking!

JD

 

[REALIST1]

Many of those contradictions dealt with the lack of Morals in the Bible so I am on task.

 

[afriendofGod]

Religions existed since Adam, but there wasn’t any Savior. Prophets came and sages of every description. All kinds of “virgin births ans signs were claimed.” But there was no Savior. Some were true, others more or less false. The Savior wasn’t coming, until He came. He chose how to save, not by religion, or prophecy, or sword. He chose to save by His Cross. Henceforth, "we are all under the Cross of Christ. All humanity is constantly under the Cross. …] Le monde est un immense chemin de croix. Dans le Christ la Croix est le signe d’un amour infini, de celui qui a surmonte le mal, le peche, la doleur, la mort, pour entrer dans la Vie (the world is an immense Way of the Cross. In Christ, the Cross is a sign of a Love immense, love by Him, Who overcame evil, sin, pain, and death, to enter Life). These words I have just gleaned at random from Pope John Paul II’s *Insegnamenti (*teachings). They show why Christ is God’s only Son, Who alone came and saved the world! The salvation has come! All you have to do, is to attach all yur sufferings to this saving Cross, and keep believing! The alternative is bleak!

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Warppspeedpetey,
Did I get something wrong with believing that most on this site would consider themselves moderates? Are you a fundalmentalist? I live in a heavily Catholic area and know of no fundamentalist. So my reply to the fence-sitting I believe was right on. Im not sure where you were going with your reply to that ???
Peace and happiness to all!

.

yes, those assumptions are incorrect, moderates, by definition wouldn’t bother with the intense Catholicism many of us practice. thats not to say some moderates are not here, rather that is a bad assumption

i make no bones about it, i am a fanatic for my G-d, or as you say fundamentalist, that does not give you an excuse to ignore me, if thats what you think. i can still reason, i am also well educated

you know Catholics, you don’t know Catholicism. i doubt you think you know anyone who practices mortification of the flesh, or self denial in any form. but i am sure you do

as to the point of the post, i was saying that you are just making assertions, not logical arguments