Morality without God?

[Charlemagne_II]

Originally Posted by Bradski View Post
it’s not v ery difficult at all to convince yourself of something if you want it badly enough. And the rest, as they say, is history.

This is as true of the atheist as it is of the theist. Atheists don’t want god to exist, so they have no problem proving it to their satisfaction. It is their fundamental dogma.

 

[Bradski]

This is as true of the atheist as it is of the theist. Atheists don’t want god to exist, so they have no problem proving it to their satisfaction. It is their fundamental dogma.

I think the resurrection is off at a tangent, but I’ll try to get back to it later and PR’s questions (but exceptionally busy at the moment and not much time available with a holiday coming up).

But this is straightforward enough…

Charles – it is as ridiculous to say that I don’t want God to exist as it would be to say that I don’t want Shiva to exist. Or any other supernatural entity or deity of anyone’s choice. That is just silly.

The evidence for anything supernatural is, to be exceedingly generous, exceptionally weak. I include anyone’s god in that and that includes yours. For the umpteenth time, an atheist isn’t someone who just doesn’t believe in your god.

 

[PRmerger]

The evidence for anything supernatural is, to be exceedingly generous, exceptionally weak.

And here’s where we get into the disingenuous nature of the atheist’s demand for evidence.

It is NOT exceedingly weak. Except if your standard is exceedingly high. Which, for some reason, it is for this situation. But for all others of great import the atheist’s standard is exceedingly low.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Bradski
**
The evidence for anything supernatural is, to be exceedingly generous, exceptionally weak. I include anyone’s god in that and that includes yours. For the umpteenth time, an atheist isn’t someone who just doesn’t believe in your god. **

I got it. I just don’t buy it. The flight from God is very well documented down through the ages.

The poet Francis Thomas encapsulated the flight in his poem “The Hound of Heaven.”

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Charles – it is as ridiculous to say that I don’t want God to exist as it would be to say that I don’t want Shiva to exist. Or any other supernatural entity or deity of anyone’s choice. That is just silly.

The evidence for anything supernatural is, to be exceedingly generous, exceptionally weak. . .

So you haven’t found any evidence that Shiva exists:
Shiva the Dancer at the Centre of the wheel of creation,
Who with His right hand beats a drum, its rhythm constituting time and all that it contains,
Who with His left hand of fire brings everything that is, into nonexistence.
The timeless Dancer in the void, whose dance is the universe.

So you imagine, as many would, that
because the words, traditions, images and symbols are different,
because we have different perspectives and understandings
that gods like Shiva do not speak to aspects of the Divine, the ultimate Mystery
the One true God, Who created and loves us all.

What evidence can there be in the finite, of He who is in and beyond everything.
What evidence for He whose word brought the universe into being,
for He who is the ultimate Thinker of all things;
There is nothing in creation that defines He who created it,
other than the fact that it exists and that He is everywhere to be seen within it.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Bradski

The evidence for anything supernatural is, to be exceedingly generous, exceptionally weak.

“The atheist can’t find God for the same reason that a thief can’t find a policeman.” G.K. Chesterton

 

[minion]

How can a civilization develop a moral consensus on anything without reference to the commandments of God?

“Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.” George Washington

Do a thought experiment. Imagine a perfectly non-religious society. From whence would morals be derived, and by what (whose) authority?

Been watching a lot of those post-apocalyptic type of shows lately, but I would have to concur with them.

“Civilization” would develop on might, cowardice, and opportunistic attitudes. As irrational as it may be, instinctual survival becomes the only guidance for morality, despite having no rational reason why survival matters other than fear of pain, and of the unknown after dying. It would be a repeat of totalitarian rule, self-destruction & overthrow. They’d be like a pack of wolves, with loyalty based on fear. As soon as the top dog shows signs of weakness, time for number two to be number one.

Let’s axe the Ten Commandments.

1. God is absent, so any reference to God is moot.Your human leader is now your god, and your goal is to take their place, if you got the guts. Because, until then, they can treat you as they please.
2. Honor you parents? Why? Why should you pay any heed to them for simply raising you to help them pay the bills? Better to stab them in the back, and take all the money for yourself later. Once they outlive their usefulness, may as well euthanize them and save yourself some money from nursing.
3. You shall not kill? Why not, if can avoid getting caught? I’m trying to survive, and the other person has stuff I need to survive. They’re going to die someday anyway, if they don’t die to me, they’ll die to someone else anyway. If I have a child that’ll start sapping my money, may as well kill the kid and save myself some money to buy a new Ferrari.
4. You shall not commit adultery? Not desire my neighbor’s wife? If it makes me feel good, I’m gonna do it, whatever the consequences for them. Not my fault if his wife thinks I’m sexy. In fact, even if she doesn’t, I’ll just rape her anyway. Feeling good and survival are the only things you can be sure of in this world.
5. You shall not steal? You shall not cover your neighbor’s goods? As longs as you don’t get caught, you don’t have to worry about reciprocation.
6. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor? The person dumb enough to believe me wouldn’t have lasted long anyway.

Love, goodwill, and self-sacrifice become meaningless concepts. In other words, we’d be worse than animals, we’d be monsters. Every person would be a Marquis de Sade. The golden rule, “do to others what you would have them do unto you” is merely clever selfishness after all - take advantage of people who adhere to it. Morality as we know it would be rewritten.

1. Survive.
2. Do what feels good.
3. Don’t get caught if it risks retribution.
4. If you don’t like it, go kill yourself.

 

[aprilfloyd]

So follow this out, april.

Who lied about the resurrection? And why? And how?

I don’t know. I imagine it hangs on what religion you are and whether you believe there was a ressurrection. We are talking about a time, with poor literary and not as civilized as today.

It is hard to imagine that a body could rise from the dead - I imagine a more prosaic event happened and it has been embellished ever since.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t know.

Well, friend, I think you ought to consider what it is you’re denying.

And what you’re proposing.

If the resurrection didn’t happen, then who promoted it? And why? And how?

Think about what you’re proposing, and follow it through.

 

[aprilfloyd]

Well, friend, I think you ought to consider what it is you’re denying.

And what you’re proposing.

If the resurrection didn’t happen, then who promoted it? And why? And how?

Think about what you’re proposing, and follow it through.

Hi PRmerger

I am not denying anything.

It seems illogical or irrational to me to believe that someone rose from the dead. That that someone was god and was sacrificed to himself to save us (from what?) and this sacrifice shows us love. Sorry can’t get my head round that it sounds like fantasy. If the various characters did exist I would imagine that there actions and lives were less than fantastical. Many outrageous claims are made to evince religions, I suppose they need that impact to ‘scare’ weak minded individuals who have a propensity towards religion.

 

[davidv]

Hi PRmerger

I am not denying anything.

It seems illogical or irrational to me to believe that someone rose from the dead. That that someone was god and was sacrificed to himself to save us (from what?) and this sacrifice shows us love. Sorry can’t get my head round that it sounds like fantasy. If the various characters did exist I would imagine that there actions and lives were less than fantastical. Many outrageous claims are made to evince religions, I suppose they need that impact to ‘scare’ weak minded individuals who have a propensity towards religion.

You made the claim that the resurrection didn’t happen in a prior post responding to PRmerger. That is deny something, namely the resurrection.

Your limitation in getting your head around this has very little to do with what is true. Your scare quote reveals a severely limited understanding of moral theology.

 

[aprilfloyd]

You made the claim that the resurrection didn’t happen in a prior post responding to PRmerger. That is deny something, namely the resurrection.

Your limitation in getting your head around this has very little to do with what is true. Your scare quote reveals a severely limited understanding of moral theology.

I can’t ‘believe’ it happened, I would be dishonest, if I said I did.

As for my limits on moral theology, I am happy about that. Thanks.

 

[PRmerger]

Hi PRmerger

I am not denying anything.

LOL!

If you are saying that you don’t believe in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, then you are…

wait for it…

DENYING that Jesus Christ rose from the dead.

Now, follow that through.

If he didn’t really rise from the dead, who promoted that idea? And why did they? And how did they do this?

 

[aprilfloyd]

LOL!

If you are saying that you don’t believe in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, then you are…

wait for it…

DENYING that Jesus Christ rose from the dead.

Now, follow that through.

If he didn’t really rise from the dead, who promoted that idea? And why did they? And how did they do this?

You are funny.

 

[PRmerger]

You are funny.

So I’ve been told.

Now, be a thinker/philosopher/examiner of what’s important and consider how it was that a lie was spread about Jesus’ resurrection.

Remember, people were tortured mercilessly and died for this “lie”, yet not a single person recanted and said, “Ok! I made it all up! He didn’t really rise from the dead!”

 

[Capuchinfan1337]

No one, read 1984 by: George Orwell. Only the Part is “right” and look how that turns out, I mean at the end O’Brien basically tells Winston that all the Party want is power the become “God”(I’m paraphrasing but this is basic jist of things).

 

[aprilfloyd]

So I’ve been told.

Now, be a thinker/philosopher/examiner of what’s important and consider how it was that a lie was spread about Jesus’ resurrection.

Remember, people were tortured mercilessly and died for this “lie”, yet not a single person recanted and said, “Ok! I made it all up! He didn’t really rise from the dead!”

Why was the lie spread? That is a good question?

People are capable of believing many things which prove not to be true. Human knowledge advances by the continual testing of what was believed to be true.

 

[PRmerger]

Why was the lie spread? That is a good question?

Yes. What benefit was received by the liars who spread this? Did not they all die horrific deaths?

So, again, think hard about what you’re proposing, april.

Don’t just swallow any truth that someone has given you. It may be poisonous!

Think for yourself! But think well! Don’t just stop with the palaver that someone may have offered you.

Why would the disciples lie? And how was this lie spread?

 

[aprilfloyd]

Yes. What benefit was received by the liars who spread this? Did not they all die horrific deaths?

So, again, think hard about what you’re proposing, april.

Don’t just swallow any truth that someone has given you. It may be poisonous!

Think for yourself! But think well! Don’t just stop with the palaver that someone may have offered you.

Why would the disciples lie? And how was this lie spread?

You are posing good questions,

Why do you think someone told me this? How strange.

 

[Bradski]

“The atheist can’t find God for the same reason that a thief can’t find a policeman.” G.K. Chesterton

That’s a good line. Hadn’t heard that one before.

And here’s where we get into the disingenuous nature of the atheist’s demand for evidence. It is NOT exceedingly weak. Except if your standard is exceedingly high. Which, for some reason, it is for this situation. But for all others of great import the atheist’s standard is exceedingly low.

Well, we’re talking about creation itself. I’m sure you’d agree that the evidence has to be reasonably high-ish. I can hardly say to myself: ‘Well, that seems good enough for me…’

If the resurrection didn’t happen, then who promoted it? And why? And how?

Well, it was prophesied. People were waiting for it to happen (they’re still waiting for the next one, for heaven’s sake). And when someone turns up who looks like He fitted the bill, then we’re off and running.

I’m pretty sure you’ve seen the rather limp attempts that some people make for showing that prophesies that appear somewhere in the bible actually came to pass. You don’t seem to be the sort of person who would accept many of them without question. But people do have faith in the prophesies in scripture. So much so that they will believe a lot of what people tell them simply because it confirms what they want.

We all do it. It’s undeniable. It can’t be helped. It’s part of human nature. It’s why charlatans on TV get gigs taking to dead relatives. Not that I’m comparing the resurrection with you talking to dear old Uncle Albert, but the principle is the same.

And you want to know why people would die for something that wasn’t true? Seriously? Any disciple who put himself in harm’s way did so believing in what he had been told. It didn’t have to be right. It didn’t have to be true. He just needed to think it was.

There are enough examples of people sacrificing themselves (and others) for something they had been told and believed to be true.

Do I earn a video criticism? I like those…