Morality Without Religion?

[Gilbert_Keith]

AnAtheist

And I must note (again and again, because some people don’t get it), Hitler was no atheist, and Nazi Germany was not an atheistic nation.

---

For your edification:

"“The religions are all alike, no matter what they call themselves. They have no future – certainly none for Germans. Fascism, if it likes, may come to terms with the Church. So shall I. Why not? That will not stop me from tearing up Christianity root and branch and annihilating it in Germany.” Adolf Hitler

THE VOICE OF DESTRUCTION: HITLER SPEAKS, ed. Rauschning

 

[john_doran]

Gilbert Keith:

For your edification:

"“The religions are all alike, no matter what they call themselves. They have no future – certainly none for Germans. Fascism, if it likes, may come to terms with the Church. So shall I. Why not? That will not stop me from tearing up Christianity root and branch and annihilating it in Germany.” Adolf Hitler

THE VOICE OF DESTRUCTION: HITLER SPEAKS, ed. Rauschning

and for yours:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”

• Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Volume 1, Chapter 2

“It doesn’t dawn on this depraved bourgeois world that this is positively a sin against all reason; that it is criminal lunacy to keep on drilling a born half-ape until people think they have made a lawyer out of him, while millions of members of the highest culture-race must remain in entirely unworthy positions; that it is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator if His most gifted beings by the hundreds and hundreds of thousands are allowed to degenerate in the present proletarian morass, while Hottentots and Zulu Kaffirs are trained for intellectual professions.”

• Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Volume 2, Chapter 2

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

John Doran

And for yours:

“It is a great satisfaction for me to find myself totally foreign to the world of Christianity. I shall never believe what is founded on lies can endure. I believe in truth.” Adolf Hitler

“Christianity is a religion for slaves and fools, for ‘the last shall be first and the first shall be last.’” Adolf Hitler

THE GREAT QUOTATIONS, compiled by George Seldes

O.K. John. Do you think Hitler was a Christian?

But I’d be really surprised if you as a Catholic should think that Hitler was being honest when he said he was “fighting for the work of the Lord.”

 

[john_doran]

Gilbert Keith:

O.K. John. Do you think Hitler was a Christian?

i don’t know. but it seems pretty clear that he at least wasn’t an atheist.
Gilbert Keith:

But I’d be really surprised if you as a Catholic should think that Hitler was being honest when he said he was “fighting for the work of the Lord.”

why would that surprise you?

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

John Doran

why would that surprise you?
He says, hopefully tongue in cheek.

Any atheist who thinks Adolf was a bona fide Christian should read Bradley F. Smith’s Adolf Hitler: His Family, Childhood, and Youth. It is clear from his early life that Hitler “fighting for the work of the Lord” is an unlikely and virtually unbelievable scenario.

But I suppose people believe the quotes they want to believe.

I want to believe the quotes I cited because they are consistent with the total pattern of Hitler’s life. He persecuted people of every religion … Catholic, Protestant, Jew.

Why do you want to believe that the quotes you cited are consistent with the pattern of his life? Can you find any evidence of true spirituality anywhere in the Hitler’s life.

Please let us know when you do. It will be a shocker for me.

By the way, John, have you ever seen the famous photo of Hitler admiring a bust of the atheist “God is dead” philosopher Nietszche?

 

[mlchance]

Gilbert Keith:

But I suppose people believe the quotes they want to believe.

What’s not to believe? Hitler claimed to be a servant of God. He claimed to be authentically Christian. Obviously we can take him at his word because it’s not at all likely that he would have lied about such things.

Or, to put another spin on the “Hitler was a Christian” schlock:

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[john_doran]

Gilbert Keith:

John Doran

why would that surprise you?
He says, hopefully tongue in cheek.

look, man - over the course of the 18-or-so years since my return to the church, i have seen self-professed catholics who believe things i wouldn’t have thought possible: jesus was not god, jesus didn’t rise from the dead, abortion is ok, extra-marital sex is ok, and so on. i have seen protestant christians with a boggling array of equally baffling beliefs, not to mention people who lead suicide cults in the name of their extra-terrestrial brethren…

having experienced all of those things, it strikes me as tediously prosaic that hitler might have believed himself to be fighting for the work of the lord.
Gilbert Keith:

Any atheist who thinks Adolf was a bona fide Christian should read Bradley F. Smith’s Adolf Hitler: His Family, Childhood, and Youth. It is clear from his early life that Hitler “fighting for the work of the Lord” is an unlikely and virtually unbelievable scenario.

But I suppose people believe the quotes they want to believe.

i continue not to understand the strength of your opposition to the idea that theists, even christian theists, are capable of having beliefs like hitler’s; would your faith be somehow compromised if you were presented with incontrovertible evidence that there are and have been christians who believe in and perpetrate all kinds of moral evil in the name of christianity?
Gilbert Keith:

I want to believe the quotes I cited because they are consistent with the total pattern of Hitler’s life. He persecuted people of every religion … Catholic, Protestant, Jew.

Why do you want to believe that the quotes you cited are consistent with the pattern of his life? Can you find any evidence of true spirituality anywhere in the Hitler’s life.

we have gone off the rails somewhere in this thread, gilbert - i don’t “want” to believe anything about hitler: it would be difficult for me to care less about the man.

this thread began with the suggestion that atheists have no foundations upon which to ground an objective (political) morality, and commenced with a number of posters stating that atheism, and in particular any kind of institutionalized athesim, necessarily leads to moral chaos.

i am merely pointing out that an equal amount of egregious moral depravity can,and has, resulted from the leadership of people who believe in god and an objective morality. and that’s all. period.

i have no idea if hitler was spiritual - but i can tell you with assurance that there are a multitude of people who call themselves (catholic) christians who have no spiritual life at all. what’s your point?

my point is that it is absurd to make generalizations about the moral life of individuals based on their beliefs concerning god; one can draw those conclusions only based on their beliefs in morality. and even then, not with any real certainty: i knew an ahteist once who professed that there was no objective morality and that rapists could not be found to be doing anything wrong, but only doing something that others don’t like - and i can tell you that this guy was himself not a rapist, and in fact counted himself among those who detested rape. i also work with an agnostic who dislikes religion, but who also has a very developed moral sense and is acutely aware of the moral propriety of what he and others do…

atheists can be just as moral or immoral as christians, and atheism doesn’t lead inexorably to moral depravity. atheism as a philosophy might be inconsistent with an objective morality, and it may not; but doxastic inconsistency itself is not a reliable indicator of immorality.

and that’s that.

 

[fix]

john doran:

l
atheists can be just as moral or immoral as christians, and atheism doesn’t lead inexorably to moral depravity. atheism as a philosophy might be inconsistent with an objective morality, and it may not; but doxastic inconsistency itself is not a reliable indicator of immorality.

.

It would seem that this paragraph would be hard to defend as it is stated.

Quotes from CCC:
1959 The natural law, the Creator’s very good work, provides the solid foundation on which man can buildthe structure of moral rules to guide his choices. It also provides the indispensable moral foundation for building the human community. Finally, it provides the necessary basis for the civil law with which it is connected, whether by a reflection that draws conclusions from its principles, or by additions of a positive and juridical nature.

1960 The precepts of natural law are not perceived by everyone clearly and immediately. In the present situation sinful man needs grace and revelation so moral and religious truths may be known "by everyone with facility, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error."12

So, even with well intentioned atheists the idea of always getting a moral action right would be hit or miss. The well formed Catholic may sin, but he knows what right is.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

atheists can be just as moral or immoral as christians, and atheism doesn’t lead inexorably to moral depravity

Oh John … here we go again, trying to make me say something I didn’t say. Please stop it.

I did not say ALL atheist are depraved or are INEXORABLY led to depravity… please be fair!!!

We were talking about Hitler, not **ALL **atheists. And the point is whether Hitler’s atheism was a moral glue that held the Germans together. Atheists will be glad to tell you that it can be done without religion … the issue of this thread. They might trot out Kant as their philosophical model … but Kant doesn’t work. So then we go from the book into the practice. Hitler is the practice of atheism. So was Stalin. So was Mao. You cannot just say that Christianity produced comparable monsters of humanity without acknowledging that those monsters stood up against the Gospels and Christ. That is, they defied the ultimate moral authority.

Now tell me what ultimate moral authority the atheist Hitler put in the place of Christ. His own? Why not? Atheism has no central authority for morality … all atheists being individualists and declaring themselves free to develop their own morality. Any Christians who did that, such as the Christians you cite, would be called sinners or heretics. What do atheists call someone like Hitler? You see, that have no paragon to compare him against except themselves. If they are good atheists, he is a monster. If they are bad atheists … they might volunteer to do his bidding. But on what authority? Their own?

That is the whole point of this thread. I am trying to find out how atheists find a moral authority other than their own will and desires, since they acknowledge no higher will or purpose for mankind.

(Text of Martin Niemoller’s remarks in the Congressional Record, October 14, 1968, page 31636):

“When Hitler attacked the Jews, I was not a Jew, therefore I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the Catholics, I was not a Catholic, and therefore, I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the unions and the industrialists, I was not a member of the unions and I was not concerned. Then Hitler attacked me and the Protestant Church – and there was nobody left to be concerned.”

Pastor Niemoller spent over eight years in a Nazi concentration camp.

 

[sara888]

**John said:for this to be true, then it would also have to be true that the only reason that religious people don’t do evil, chaotic things is out of fear of divine retribution.

Sara says:
Out of Love and Fear for retribution, Yes we work out our faith with “Fear and Trembling” as the bible instructs one to do so.

i don’t know about you, but i don’t avoid hurting people because i’m afraid god will punish me. same goes for rape and theft and murder and lying and cheating.

Sara says:
Well you should be afraid of hurting other’s regardless of God punishing you, I find the statement above mean and self-centered.

i don’t do any of those things because they’re wrong. period. and i try to do the right thing because it’s right.

Sara says:
What makes it right.! Morals and values is what makes it right as a human beign rather than a religious human being, however, people who have God know when the end is near they will be judged on their Faith in God and their Love for neighbor. Why do we exist, what would be the purpose of it all.?

and even if that doesn’t describe the totality of everyone’s moral life - even if there are religion-specific norms like mass-on-sunday, or abstain-on-friday - it certainly describes the core part of everyone’s moral reasoning, the part that deals with killing and hurting and raping and stealing. the part, basically, that keeps society on the rails rather than spinning out of control.

Society has been spinning out of control for many years, however not complete chaos. Also people who are religious dont steal, etc. they know there is purpose and meaning to fullfilling Gods will rather than their own will. God is real, Science will never explain the unexplainable because they cant, its in Gods hands. Medical Miracles, Demons, yes weather you believe it or not there are such things as demonic forces here on earth, these things will never be explained to the unreligious or unbelievers of God.

Sara **

 

[AnAtheist]

Gilbert Keith:

For your edification:

"“The religions are all alike, no matter what they call themselves. They have no future – certainly none for Germans. Fascism, if it likes, may come to terms with the Church. So shall I. Why not? That will not stop me from tearing up Christianity root and branch and annihilating it in Germany.” Adolf Hitler

THE VOICE OF DESTRUCTION: HITLER SPEAKS, ed. Rauschning

I never said Hitler was a bona fide Christian, I said he was no atheist. Hitler believed in higher powers, eg fate, destiny. What god image he had, who knows, but he never denied the existence of God. Even in the above quote he’s speaking of religions, not God.

 

[AnAtheist]

Gilbert Keith:

Now tell me what ultimate moral authority the atheist Hitler put in the place of Christ. His own?

No, the wellbeing of the PEOPLE is the centerstone of national socialism. “You are nothing, your nation is everything.” was taught back then. Thousands willingly gave their lives for that stupid idea, eg the Waffen-SS in the first two year of WWII, who fought without thinking about themselves (and therefore had the highest causualties btw).

Atheism has no central authority for morality … all atheists being individualists and declaring themselves free to develop their own morality.

An individualist or an egoist won’t embrace national socialism, see above. In national socialism you are not free to define your own morality, in fact you are not free at all. Everything and everyone is subdued under the nation.

 

[kim_wilson]

One has to ask the question of whether what Hitler wrote and said was only for political gain. Politicians have aligned themselves with the Creator to generate support for most of history.

If Hitler did consider himself a Christian, he obviously borrowed a good bit of his philosophy from Martin Luther. Ever read his Treatise on the Jews? He advocated sacking synagogues and quarantining Jews permanently.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

KIM

As I recall from readings, Hitler did move from Catholicism to Luther to Nietzsche.

It seems from the Lutheran Pastor Niemoller’s remarks that finally Hitler viewed all religions as his enemies. And it’s also true from Hitler’s own remarks cited above.

If anyone can find a religion to which Hitler subscribed other than the worship of Self, I’d like to see that religion identifed book and chapter.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

AnAtheist

No, the wellbeing of the PEOPLE is the centerstone of national socialism.

That is the lie that every dictator will throw out to seduce the people

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

AnAtheist

An individualist or an egoist won’t embrace national socialism, see above. In national socialism you are not free to define your own morality, in fact you are not free at all. Everything and everyone is subdued under the nation.

Right. We agree. The individualist or egoist that I was talking about was Hitler. There being no higher authority to which he would submit (certainly not even the Constitution of the Weimar Republic) Hitler’s egoism made him feel free to impose his will on everyone else if he could get away with it. Those who submitted to his will assuredly were not individualists able to think for themselves. And if they ever once dared to think for themselves he put a stop to it. That was his individualism and egoism at play.

When Hitler drew his pistol and fired it into the air, all the German cattle stampeded and followed Hitler over the cliff to self destruction. Again, I hasten to add, not ALL the German people were cattle. But the ones who actively stood up against him were short-lived for the most part.

 

[john_doran]

fix:

It would seem that this paragraph would be hard to defend as it is stated.

Quotes from CCC:

and here’s some other ones:

**1777 **Moral conscience, present at the heart of the person, enjoins him at the appropriate moment to do good and to avoid evil. It also judges particular choices, approving those that are good and denouncing those that are evil. It bears witness to the authority of truth in reference to the supreme Good to which the human person is drawn, and it welcomes the commandments. When he listens to his conscience, the prudent man can hear God speaking.

**1956 **The natural law, present in the heart of each man and established by reason, is universal in its precepts and its authority extends to all men. It expresses the dignity of the person and determines the basis for his fundamental rights and duties:

“For there is a true law: right reason. It is in conformity with nature, is diffused among all men, and is immutable and eternal; its orders summon to duty; its prohibitions turn away from offense . . . . To replace it with a contrary law is a sacrilege; failure to apply even one of its provisions is forbidden; no one can abrogate it entirely.” (emphasis mine)

fix:

So, even with well intentioned atheists the idea of always getting a moral action right would be hit or miss. The well formed Catholic may sin, but he knows what right is.

i’ll go you one better and say that it’s impossible for an atheist to get every moral judgment right, since there are many moral judgments the rectitiude of which requires belief in god.

but, again, we are not talking about about every moral judgment, but only those required to keep a polity from descending into moral chaos and anarchy; i think atheists are quite capable of making those judgments correctly.

 

[fix]

john doran:

but, again, we are not talking about about every moral judgment, but only those required to keep a polity from descending into moral chaos and anarchy; i think atheists are quite capable of making those judgments correctly.

That is your opinion. I do not even know how we can claim atheists are one unified group. As it stands, those that are atheists, may or may not come to right conclusions about moral decisions.

The natural moral law is clouded to many from habitual sin, strong societal influences and a failure to take the time to seek out the truth. This may not apply in every single individual’s life, but I cannot see how one may claim the natural moral law is accepted by most in this culture.

An argument can be made we are in moral chaos currently.

 

[john_doran]

atheists can be just as moral or immoral as christians, and atheism doesn’t lead inexorably to moral depravity

Oh John … here we go again, trying to make me say something I didn’t say. Please stop it.

ok, gilbert, look - that statement of mine is ***my ***statement. it is a part of my argument that if atheism doesn’t lead inexorably to moral depravity, then atheism doesn’t matter to political morality.

do you see? i am not imputing words to you at all - i am making a response to your claims and an answer to your question. it is what i am saying, not you.

hopefully that clears things up.
Gilbert Keith:

I did not say ALL atheist are depraved or are INEXORABLY led to depravity… please be fair!!!

i didn’t say you said that. again, i am saying that if one can be an atheist and have essentially good morals, then one can have an atheist lead an essentially moral state.
Gilbert Keith:

They might trot out Kant as their philosophical model … but Kant doesn’t work.

so you say.
Gilbert Keith:

So then we go from the book into the practice. Hitler is the practice of atheism. So was Stalin. So was Mao. You cannot just say that Christianity produced comparable monsters of humanity without acknowledging that those monsters stood up against the Gospels and Christ. That is, they defied the ultimate moral authority.

ok, fine. any christian who acts badly is acting in an unchristian manner. fair enough. what’s your point? they are christians acting badly. how does that differ from what i said?
Gilbert Keith:

Atheism has no central authority for morality … all atheists being individualists and declaring themselves free to develop their own morality.

you’re begging your own question here, gilbert: atheists don’t have to be relativists - as you yourself keep stating, relativism isn’t necessitated by atheism…

if you want an objective morality, all you need to do is ground it in an objective feature of reality. like reason.

let’s see what the church says:

**1956 **The natural law, present in the heart of each man and established by reason, is universal in its precepts and its authority extends to all men…For there is a true law: right reason.

sure, atheists won’t have access to any revealed moral truths, but it’s possible to have a stable political system based only on those ethical principles available to the light of reason. and that’s the question you initially asked.
Gilbert Keith:

That is the whole point of this thread. I am trying to find out how atheists find a moral authority other than their own will and desires, since they acknowledge no higher will or purpose for mankind.

question asked, question answered.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

fix

The well formed Catholic may sin, but he knows what right is

Exactly. He subscribes to an authority outside himself of which he can be certain.

The atheist can only subscribe to his own authority, of which may or may not be certain. If he is not certain, he is prey to the winds of error and evil … as in the case of Roe V. Wade.

The woman represented as Roe has now become a Catholic and is actively working to overturn Roe V. Wade. It will be interesting to see how many atheists will hop aboard …