Morally obliged to report co-worker to authorities?

[LaughingBoy1503]

It sounds like

A) He knows he’s doing something wrong
B) He not only does not care, he’s bragging that he’s getting away with it.

If he gets in a wreck, he’s stealing the other party’s time, money, health, and energy in dealing with the claims.

If he wants the privilege of driving, he needs to pay the associated fees and follow the rules just like everyone else.

He’s lying, cheating and stealing, and you know he’s lying, cheating, and stealing.

I advocate for reporting him.

However, your question is not “should I report him?” but : “am I morally obligated to report a crime I am aware of?”

There are degrees. It’s not like he’s stealing food from someone who won’t miss it, because his family with die without it (which is still stealing, but has more extenuating circumstances). He’s actually proud of / bragging that he’s taking advantage of the rest of the people who pay into the system.

Matthew 18:15-17: “If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.”

He is putting others in financial danger every day by potentially causing an accident that someone else will have to pay for.

Catechism 1868-1869 states:

Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:

• by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
• by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
• by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
• by protecting evil-doers.

Thus sin makes men accomplices of one another and causes concupiscence, violence, and injustice to reign among them. Sins give rise to social situations and institutions that are contrary to the divine goodness. “Structures of sin” are the expression and effect of personal sins. They lead their victims to do evil in their turn. In an analogous sense, they constitute a "social sin."144

Would it put you in danger to report him? If not, I’m leaning toward yes. There is a moral obligation here to turn him in.

Best wishes in your difficult situation.

~E

It takes a lot of mental gymnastics to say that not turning someone in for driving without insurance constitutes sin. It is like saying I have to report everyone I know who smokes marijuana because they do not have a medical marijuana card. It is not my responsibility. Do you pull over and pull out your cell phone and report everyone on the freeway that you see speeding?

 

[AdamP88]

What I said was: it’s stupid and it sucks, but since MIB will cover it, at the end of the day I won’t be out of pocket if he hits my car. There is no real risk to Joe Upstanding-Citizen. It’s more of a risk to himself than anyone else. In my personal opinion, informing on someone should only be done when they pose a risk of some sort (physical, financial, etc) to themselves or others. “Ratting” on one of the thousands of uninsured drivers will not reduce your premium. What’s the point?

Yes, and who ultimately pays for that. The Irish taxpayer. You and me.

 

[mommy_k]

Yes, Adam Peter… To have to foot the bill for dishonest or lax people is even harder.

A mean person would bump his car in the parking lot with little or no damage and call the police to sort things out…That’s how it’s done here. Of course don’t do it…

Pay someone else to.

This is veery bad. Really don’t do it. just kidding of course.

 

[AdamP88]

In any case I don’t think I’ll report him. At least not right away. I might try to encourage him to buy insurance.

By the way: Most insurance companies offer to allow customers to pay their premium in installments. I couldn’t have afforded my €1500 premium unless I paid in installments.

 

[Echolynn]

It takes a lot of mental gymnastics to say that not turning someone in for driving without insurance constitutes sin. It is like saying I have to report everyone I know who smokes marijuana because they do not have a medical marijuana card. It is not my responsibility. Do you pull over and pull out your cell phone and report everyone on the freeway that you see speeding?

You misunderstand.

I did not say the OP would sin by not reporting.

I did say that based on the catechism and Catholic moral teaching, we do have an obligation to admonish the sinner – the sinner being the person who is stealing from everyone who is paying into the system.

[Of course, factors such as “can I do this with charity, am I the appropriate person to do this, to what degree do I do this, etc . . .” are all part of the equation. But this is a bit of a tangent from the original question about reporting the person. ]

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

You misunderstand.

I did not say the OP would sin by not reporting.

I did say that based on the catechism and Catholic moral teaching, we do have an obligation to admonish the sinner – the sinner being the person who is stealing from everyone who is paying into the system.

[Of course, factors such as “can I do this with charity, am I the appropriate person to do this, to what degree do I do this, etc . . .” are all part of the equation. But this is a bit of a tangent from the original question about reporting the person. ]

You said that there is a moral obligation to turn him in. So, to you,are you saying that does not mean that it would be a sin to not fulfill one’s moral obligation? Because when I hear “Moral obligation” it implies (to me anyways) that to not fulfill a moral obligation is a sin, and you said that there is a moral obligation to report that uninsured guy. Just trying to understand.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

**Would it put you in danger to report him? If not, I’m leaning toward yes. There is a moral obligation here to turn him in.
**
Best wishes in your difficult situation.

~E

Could you explain what this means, please, if you were not saying that not turning this guy in would be a sin? Because that is how it reads to me.

 

[ShrodingersCat]

Yes, and who ultimately pays for that. The Irish taxpayer. You and me.

Yes. And if you turn him in it will make no monetary difference to either of us. He is one of many. Better to support a campaign encouraging uninsured drivers to get insurance than turn one uninsured guy in.

 

[EasterJoy]

Could you explain what this means, please, if you were not saying that not turning this guy in would be a sin? Because that is how it reads to me.

First of all, admonishing the sinner is a spiritual work of mercy. We have a duty to perform these, but we cannot perform every single one we could possibly think to perform. More to the point, that work of mercy could take the form of refusing to give tacit approval to any bragging about the practice of not carrying the required insurance meant to spread the financial risk fairly to everyone, rather than turning him in to the authorities.

It isn’t wrong to turn him in, however. He justly deserves it and his bragging pretty much invites it.

Yes. And if you turn him in it will make no monetary difference to either of us. He is one of many. Better to support a campaign encouraging uninsured drivers to get insurance than turn one uninsured guy in.

The wind blows over a house by the collision of one molecule at a time. There is not much point in supporting a “campaign” to encourage uninsured drivers to step up when you ignore the bragging of the uninsured and unlicensed motorist who works in the next cubicle. If he can be flagrant about it around you without one word of admonishment, what is the point of having a “campaign”? Either leave them all alone about it or talk to the one guy you actually know in person who brought you into the question as it applies to his life by choosing to advertise his purposeful failure to follow the law.

 

[CatholicSheila]

Is he? I asked earlier about his financial status, whether he would have the money to cover an accident and never received an answer. One does not need insurance for things one can pay for, except if the law mandated it. But if one does have financial resources, then lack of insurance does not mean someone else would pay for your mistake.

Most people can’t afford a claim if someone is injured. I work for an insurance company in Australia and the average cost of an injury claim is over $100K. The average person doesn’t have that in their bank account and it would cause a lot of headache to anyone he injured as he doesn’t have the processes in place to deal with such an outcome.

I’m grateful that we now have electronic scanning so it is very difficult to drive without personal injury insurance here.

I’m not sure I buy pnewton’s argument that people without insurance are more careful to avoid being caught.

Working for an insurance company, they’re not. If someone chooses not to have property insurance then we actually charge them more for injury insurance. We have to justify this to the government and we can because they are more likely to have an injury claim. They don’t drive better, they just have a bigger ego. They’re convinced they’re a good driver and it will never happen to them.

 

[Rosebud77]

Originally Posted by AdamPeter View Post
And other Irish people on here (rosebud77) can go on all they like about the high premiums, but if you were hit by an uninsured driver I doubt you’d just say “oh I completely undrstand, premiums are so high these days.”

You have totally altered the bias of my post of course.

And as I have said, my mother was killed by an uninsured driver.

I have full insurance so would not be affected.

And that is not my point. I am law abiding but do not go around playing God in the lives of others. There are things I would and do report eg animal cruelty as I am doing here. … social welfare fraud…

But this when you have said to much re why you are doing it?

 

[AdamP88]

Playing God???

Seriously?

 

[EasterJoy]

Originally Posted by AdamPeter View Post
And other Irish people on here (rosebud77) can go on all they like about the high premiums, but if you were hit by an uninsured driver I doubt you’d just say “oh I completely undrstand, premiums are so high these days.”

You have totally altered the bias of my post of course.

And as I have said, my mother was killed by an uninsured driver.

I have full insurance so would not be affected.

And that is not my point. I am law abiding but do not go around playing God in the lives of others. There are things I would and do report eg animal cruelty as I am doing here. … social welfare fraud…

But this when you have said to much re why you are doing it?

The topic is not whether we should do detective work so we can be voluntary police. No one has suggested that anywhere in this thread.

The topic is how to handle it when someone brags about doing something self-centered that is both against the law and detrimental to the well-being of others. That is not just wrong-doing. It is encouraging others to engage in wrong-doing, too. How do you deal with it when someone brags about getting away with an obvious injustice? Do you admonish them directly, do you turn them in, or what? I don’t see how you bite your tongue and let them teach the world that you aren’t the kind who is going to say a word against evil-doers if it means rocking the boat at work.

I fail to see how “social welfare fraud” is any different than driving without paying for insurance you could afford to pay for as well as a typical person could and bragging about it. In both cases, the person is breaking the rules in order to unjustly reap a benefit that other people are stuck paying for.

Yes, I agree that sometimes the right thing to do is to say nothing because “you can’t teach a pig to sing; you just frustrate yourself and annoy the pig.” If someone is very clearly not going to change because of admonishment but is hardened in the wrong-doing they are so proud of and you know nobody is going to use them as a model of behavior, there may be no point in admonishing them. “Pearls before swine,” they call that.

I really fail to see how it is “playing God” to let the authorities know about advertised wrong-doing and then letting the authorities take care of it as they see fit. You yourself would report wrong-doing, if it rose to whatever level you think is sufficiently injurious to the general welfare. Theft is theft. The only difference is how much wrong-doing it takes to “anger the gods”?

 

[EasterJoy]

…they’re not…They don’t drive better, they just have a bigger ego. They’re convinced they’re a good driver and it will never happen to them.

Right on.

Since in the OP’s case this braggart “doesn’t even have the proper license to drive his vehicle,” it would seem most likely that he is a *worse *driver than average, if anything.

Which posters here think that if this scofflaw is turned in he’d blame the person who turned him in, rather than taking all the blame for his situation on himself, which is where it belongs?

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

First of all, admonishing the sinner is a spiritual work of mercy. We have a duty to perform these, but we cannot perform every single one we could possibly think to perform. More to the point, that work of mercy could take the form of refusing to give tacit approval to any bragging about the practice of not carrying the required insurance meant to spread the financial risk fairly to everyone, rather than turning him in to the authorities.

It isn’t wrong to turn him in, however. He justly deserves it and his bragging pretty much invites it.

Thanks but I asked the person I quoted to explain what THEY meant and your answer does not answer my question.

 

[pnewton]

Most people can’t afford a claim if someone is injured. I work for an insurance company in Australia and the average cost of an injury claim is over $100K.

I did not make an argument that most people could pay, only that one is not being financial irresponsible if one can self pay. On the other hand, insurance companies in the US are extremely wealthy, with an incentive to sell people more and more insurance.

 

[EasterJoy]

Thanks but I asked the person I quoted to explain what THEY meant and your answer does not answer my question.

OK, answer mine:

When is it OK to simply turn a blind eye to theft, and when is it not OK?

Is it always OK to just let thieves steal without so much as an admonishment? Is there* ever* a duty to say or do anything when someone brags about committing a sin? For instance, does it matter if the person bragging is a believer or not?

 

[EasterJoy]

I did not make an argument that most people could pay, only that one is not being financial irresponsible if one can self pay. On the other hand, insurance companies in the US are extremely wealthy, with an incentive to sell people more and more insurance.

When is it OK to steal from the wealthy and when is it not OK?
(Robin Hood did not rob the rich in order to enrich himself.)

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

OK, answer mine:

When is it OK to simply turn a blind eye to theft, and when is it not OK?

Is it always OK to just let thieves steal without so much as an admonishment? Is there* ever* a duty to say or do anything when someone brags about committing a sin? For instance, does it matter if the person bragging is a believer or not?

Irrelevant to my question. Talk to your senior pastor about that stuff if you need a answer

 

[Rosebud77]

Right on.

Since in the OP’s case this braggart “doesn’t even have the proper license to drive his vehicle,” it would seem most likely that he is a *worse *driver than average, if anything.

Which posters here think that if this scofflaw is turned in he’d blame the person who turned him in, rather than taking all the blame for his situation on himself, which is where it belongs?

Interesting language. And attitude.

As long as the person reporting takes full responsibility for the consequences of his actions?
Which there is no sign of here.

Shows mercy as Jesus bids us. Not a hint of that. Just self righteousness.

All that is seen is the trait of begrudgery that infests some places.