Morally Questionable Bible Verses - the List

[GuanYuWarGod]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=576536

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Jul 3, '11, 11:36 am
Nathan’s King
New Member Join Date: July 18, 2004
Posts: 12
Religion: Catholic

What about killing infants in 1 Samuel 15:3 and Catechism?

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I’m stumped on this one and was wondering if you could help.

1 Samuel 15:3 says God ordered the killing of infants (among others). I understand that God is the Lord of life and can take care of these children after their deaths, but this seems to contradict the Catechism # 2261, which says “The deliberate murder of an innocent person is gravely contrary to the dignity of the human being, to the golden rule, and to the holiness of the Creator. The law forbidding it is universally valid: it obliges each and everyone, always and everywhere.”

If the murder of innocents is always and everywhere wrong, how could God order it?

Thanks

Nathan’s King
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#2 Jul 4, '11, 11:57 am
Fr. Vincent Serpa
Catholic Answers Apologist Join Date: May 4, 2004
Posts: 3,405

Re: Killing infants in 1 Samuel 15:3 and Catechism

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Hi,

The killing of infants is morally wrong for US to do. But God is not held by the rules He has for us. God doesn’t murder us when He calls us home. He can call us any way He chooses. He is God and not just a bigger version of us. He is all good and all knowing. We are small potatoes. Remember what He Himself was willing to endure for our benefit. He gives the only real meaning to the word “awesome.”

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

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I felt this apologist’s explanation was trying to avoid the issue

I mean we use Bible phrases from compassionate Jesus without question and we take the ten Commandments without question too so I have always wondered why we impose double standards on Bible passages that seem to be morally wrong in themselves. Why don’t we say them in Church too if they aren’t morally wrong anyway? How do we know if we aren’t taking Jesus’ morally correct sounding sayings in context? What if we are?

I think every Catholic should know the contents of the Bible and ask ourselves if God’s word is perfect.

 

[beth40n2]

Here is a footnote on the USCCB website

1 [3] Under the ban: in such wars of extermination, all things (men, cities, beasts, etc.) were to be blotted out; nothing could be reserved for private use. The interpretation of God’s will here attributed to Samuel is in keeping with the abhorrent practices of blood revenge prevalent among pastoral, seminomadic peoples such as the Hebrews had recently been. The slaughter of the innocent has never been in conformity with the will of God.

usccb.org/nab/bible/1samuel/1samuel15.htm

As I thought, the killing had to do with wrong choices humans already made.

 

[Julian0404]

The killing of infants is morally wrong for US to do. But God is not held by the rules He has for us. God doesn’t murder us when He calls us home. He can call us any way He chooses. He is God and not just a bigger version of us. He is all good and all knowing. We are small potatoes. Remember what He Himself was willing to endure for our benefit. He gives the only real meaning to the word “awesome.”

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

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I felt this apologist’s explanation was trying to avoid the issue

I mean we use Bible phrases from compassionate Jesus without question and we take the ten Commandments without question too so I have always wondered why we impose double standards on Bible passages that seem to be morally wrong in themselves. Why don’t we say them in Church too if they aren’t morally wrong anyway? How do we know if we aren’t taking Jesus’ morally correct sounding sayings in context? What if we are?

I think every Catholic should know the contents of the Bible and ask ourselves if God’s word is perfect.

“LET HIM WHO HAS EARS, HEAR…” paraphrase of JESUS teaching

You are confused about Fr. Serpa’s response, because he nailed the answer. So let me paraphrase for you.

We will never, ever, ever be able to fully understand GOD.

We will never, ever, ever be able to judge GOD. Don’t even go there with your “…ask ourselves if GOD’s word is perfect” - really ! You are wiser than GOD ?

The ways and limits and rules of “men” do not apply to GOD. This needs repeating. Man cannot apply “man” rules to GOD otherwise, we make GOD a man, and instantaneously self destruct our faith and belief in GOD. This is Faith 101. GOD is not man and man is not GOD. Had satan understood this, the world would be a safer and HOLIER place today.

When our lack of understanding GOD gets in the way of our believing and living for GOD we have morphed into forming our own religion instead of following the way of worship which GOD has given us through HIS SON JESUS.

With every little “edit” of HIS words, HIS ways, HIS commands, we take one step back from GOD, and one step closer toward the world’s religion of “self - relevance”.

Are there difficult phrases in the bible, certainly. Can we on our own knowledge come to know the meaning of them, no - we go to our priest, bishops and Magisterium for answers we cannot fathom. The cliche of “what does this bible verse mean to you”, is without merit, because there is only ONE correct meaning. It may “affect/effect” us each in different ways, but there is only ONE meaning - and most of the time, we are ignorant of that meaning without the help and assistance of those who have dedicated their lives in the study and understanding of such.

Fr. Serpa was much more concise, but spot on.

 

[GuanYuWarGod]

“LET HIM WHO HAS EARS, HEAR…” paraphrase of JESUS teaching

You are confused about Fr. Serpa’s response, because he nailed the answer. So let me paraphrase for you.

We will never, ever, ever be able to fully understand GOD.

We will never, ever, ever be able to judge GOD. Don’t even go there with your “…ask ourselves if GOD’s word is perfect” - really ! You are wiser than GOD ?

The ways and limits and rules of “men” do not apply to GOD. This needs repeating. Man cannot apply “man” rules to GOD otherwise, we make GOD a man, and instantaneously self destruct our faith and belief in GOD. This is Faith 101. GOD is not man and man is not GOD. Had satan understood this, the world would be a safer and HOLIER place today.

When our lack of understanding GOD gets in the way of our believing and living for GOD we have morphed into forming our own religion instead of following the way of worship which GOD has given us through HIS SON JESUS.

With every little “edit” of HIS words, HIS ways, HIS commands, we take one step back from GOD, and one step closer toward the world’s religion of “self - relevance”.

Are there difficult phrases in the bible, certainly. Can we on our own knowledge come to know the meaning of them, no - we go to our priest, bishops and Magisterium for answers we cannot fathom. The cliche of “what does this bible verse mean to you”, is without merit, because there is only ONE correct meaning. It may “affect/effect” us each in different ways, but there is only ONE meaning - and most of the time, we are ignorant of that meaning without the help and assistance of those who have dedicated their lives in the study and understanding of such.

Fr. Serpa was much more concise, but spot on.

We’re all here in this forum to understand in the first place.

 

[GuanYuWarGod]

Here is a footnote on the USCCB website

1 [3] Under the ban: in such wars of extermination, all things (men, cities, beasts, etc.) were to be blotted out; nothing could be reserved for private use. The interpretation of God’s will here attributed to Samuel is in keeping with the abhorrent practices of blood revenge prevalent among pastoral, seminomadic peoples such as the Hebrews had recently been. The slaughter of the innocent has never been in conformity with the will of God.

usccb.org/nab/bible/1samuel/1samuel15.htm

As I thought, the killing had to do with wrong choices humans already made.

So why is God’s will “in keeping with the abhorrent practices of blood revenge”? How does this justify His order to kill infants?

 

[TimothyH]

So why is God’s will “in keeping with the abhorrent practices of blood revenge”? How does this justify His order to kill infants?

God is going to kill you some day. By gun, bus crash, heart attack, stroke, prostate cancer, war… some day you and I will die. The best any of us can hope for is a peaceful death - that is an abnormality and a great gift from God.

The parents of the infants were going to sacrifice them to the god Molech anyway, or send them to pagan temples to be boy prostitutes, etc.

And we are no different today. We take our fifteen year old daughters to the doctor to get birth control pills so that they can have sex whenever they feel like it. Then when they get pregnant, they go to a clinic where the child is cut apart with wires, sucked into a jar, and trucked off with the rest of the biohazard waste to be burned. God is going to do the same thing to us as he did to the nations around Israel if we don’t stop - kill us and our children which we don’t deserve to have.

-Tim-

 

[ceciliatherese]

God is going to kill you some day. By gun, bus crash, heart attack, stroke, prostate cancer, war… some day you and I will die. The best any of us can hope for is a peaceful death - that is an abnormality and a great gift from God.

The parents of the infants were going to sacrifice them to the god Molech anyway, or send them to pagan temples to be boy prostitutes, etc.

And we are no different today. We take our fifteen year old daughters to the doctor to get birth control pills so that they can have sex whenever they feel like it. Then when they get pregnant, they go to a clinic where the child is cut apart with wires, sucked into a jar, and trucked off with the rest of the biohazard waste to be burned. God is going to do the same thing to us as he did to the nations around Israel if we don’t stop - kill us and our children which we don’t deserve to have.

-Tim-

Using this argument, it would be morally okay to abort your kid (if not Catholic) because the kid was going to die eventually anyway.

 

[promethius]

Using this argument, it would be morally okay to abort your kid (if not Catholic) because the kid was going to die eventually anyway.

No, it’s not. You don’t own the life or soul of your child. It is secondarily held by the child, and primarily held by God.

God cannot murder us. He could blot us out all day, wipe man from the face of the earth in a rain of fiery death, and it would not be murder because He owns our souls and our lives.

Perhaps an (admittedly flawed) example:
A local watch maker loans watches to all the people in town. They get to borrow them, but the watch maker owns them. I walk around with a mallet, smashing these watches… I am unjust because I’m destroying that which I do not own.

However, if the watch maker walks around town with a mallet smashing his watches that he’d loaned to people, then no one is going to cry foul or injustice. He owns them. He is within his right to destroy them, while I am not.

Murder (such as abortion) is UNJUST killing. God, however, cannot unjustly kill us since we have no claim over God to our lives.

 

[ceciliatherese]

No, it’s not. You don’t own the life or soul of your child. It is secondarily held by the child, and primarily held by God.

God cannot murder us. He could blot us out all day, wipe man from the face of the earth in a rain of fiery death, and it would not be murder because He owns our souls and our lives.

Perhaps an (admittedly flawed) example:
A local watch maker loans watches to all the people in town. They get to borrow them, but the watch maker owns them. I walk around with a mallet, smashing these watches… I am unjust because I’m destroying that which I do not own.

However, if the watch maker walks around town with a mallet smashing his watches that he’d loaned to people, then no one is going to cry foul or injustice. He owns them. He is within his right to destroy them, while I am not.

Murder (such as abortion) is UNJUST killing. God, however, cannot unjustly kill us since we have no claim over God to our lives.

But pretend I’m not Christian. I’m just on the outside looking in. I don’t believe that God owns people, and I dont believe people are akin to watches because we live and breathe. I look at a Bible text, this one, for example:

From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. “Go up baldhead,” they shouted, “go up baldhead!” The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24)

Now, since I’m not religious, I am disgusted by this verse because it’s basically slaughtering of kids whose only fault are being brats. In any other book, everyone would know that this was murder. But because it’s placed in the Bible, it’s justified and okay. Why?

 

[promethius]

But pretend I’m not Christian. I’m just on the outside looking in. I don’t believe that God owns people, and I dont believe people are akin to watches because we live and breathe. I look at a Bible text, this one, for example:

From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. “Go up baldhead,” they shouted, “go up baldhead!” The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24)

Now, since I’m not religious, I am disgusted by this verse because it’s basically slaughtering of kids whose only fault are being brats. In any other book, everyone would know that this was murder. But because it’s placed in the Bible, it’s justified and okay. Why?

But you see, that position begs a key question: the nature of God.

If you think God doesn’t exist, then the bears coming out of the woods aren’t God’s doing. They’re just natural occurance. Sad, but not evil.

So to use this as an argument against God’s virtue, the atheist assumes two things, one of which can’t be assumed:

1. That we’ll pretend God exists
2. that the god we’re pretending exists fits whatever definition the atheist wants in order to argue their point.

So the atheist assumes, for the sake of their argument, an impotent god who doesn’t own the life and souls of all creation. That’s begging the question. If they want to prove that THAT god doesn’t exist, they can go ahead: I agree with them that that god is an imposter and would be an evil little maggot unworthy of worship.

But that’s not what WE believe. We believe in a God who is omnipotent and by right owns all the universe. So we have to take the debate in order:

1. Does God exist?
2. What is the nature of God?
3. Is God worthy of Worship?

You simply can’t let atheists control the debate by illogically begging the first two questions to satisfy their desired conditions for the answer to the third question.

 

[Ben_Bet_Beh]

The Qu’ran has morally questionable verses with the killing of infidels such as Jews and Christians. Christians ought not use the Muslim holy book as justification for why that religion is wrong. The same reasoning could be used as others in this thread have used including Father Serpa. Muhammed claimed direct revelation from God. Moses claimed the same thing in justification for killing infants.

 

[promethius]

The Qu’ran has morally questionable verses with the killing of infidels such as Jews and Christians. Christians ought not use the Muslim holy book as justification for why that religion is wrong. The same reasoning could be used as others in this thread have used including Father Serpa. Muhammed claimed direct revelation from God. Moses claimed the same thing in justification for killing infants.

You’re right, which is why I don’t think the “immorality” of Allah is a good argument against Islam.

Rather the contradictory statement that the Qu’ran represents the third revelation (making the new testament a true second revelation) bounced against the statement that Jesus was not the Word of God (and a person of the Trinity).

It’s impossible to claim the second revelation was true and yet that it’s central tenet was not only false, but blasphemous. Jesus made clear: “Aut Deus, Aut Homo Malus” (Either God or an evil man). Islam declines to choose which they think Jesus are, so their faith is founded on an impossible contradiction.

riiiiiight… now we’re off topic. Sort of. All that was to say that, no, in evaluating any God we cannot determine whether or not He exists on whether or not His nature is specifically pleasing to us.

 

[GuanYuWarGod]

"TimothyH:

God is going to kill you some day. By gun, bus crash, heart attack, stroke, prostate cancer, war… some day you and I will die. The best any of us can hope for is a peaceful death - that is an abnormality and a great gift from God.

The parents of the infants were going to sacrifice them to the god Molech anyway, or send them to pagan temples to be boy prostitutes, etc.

Using this argument, it would be morally okay to abort your kid (if not Catholic) because the kid was going to die eventually anyway.

Hi there TimothyH. The problem I have with your argument is that ANYONE can use your argument to justify murder. While everyone will die someday any murderer using your line of reasoning can just pop out of the blue and start murdering innocents then claim later that it was alright to do because everyone will die some day.

promethius:

God, however, cannot unjustly kill us since we have no claim over God to our lives.

In 1 Samuel, God asks Saul to execute Amalekite civilians men, women, children, infants and their livestock. Saul puts everyone to death except the livestock. God is enraged that Saul doesn’t obey completely and later replaces him with David.

We would no doubt be outraged if anyone wanted to revive the ancient Aztec practice of capturing civilians in neighboring towns and having them executed in the name of their god Huitzilopochtli. Or Canaanites worshipping Anath who wear human’s heads and hands as ornaments. We Catholics would easily condemn ancient religions where people would be thrown into a volcano or sacrificed to appease their gods as unchristian and barbaric. We condemn terrorists who commit such unjustifiable murder of people in the name of their gods.

I believe ceciliatherese raises a number of important issues here. What if you meet someone who was not from the Catholic faith? How do you convince him or her?

 

[GuanYuWarGod]

Sorry I promised a list. The following are passages from poster* tiger_in_blue *last month:

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn’t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: ‘Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.’ (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

Kill Brats
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. “Go up baldhead,” they shouted, “go up baldhead!” The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

God Kills the Curious
And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and’ fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)

Killed by a Lion
Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, “Strike me!” But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, “Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me.” And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)

Killing the Good Samaritan
The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.

When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)

Kill Sons of Sinners
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

God Will Kill Children
The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don’t give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, “All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children.” (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

Kill Men, Women, and Children
“Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple.” So they began by killing the seventy leaders. “Defile the Temple!” the LORD commanded. “Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!” So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.” (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

God Kills all the First Born of Egypt
And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

Please discuss