More about Once Saved Always Saved..

[distracted]

“Blessed is that servant whom his master on his arrival finds DOING so [emphasis added] Amen, i say to you, he will put him in charge of all his property. but if that wicked serfant says to himself, ‘My master [the servant here is a Christian] is long delayed,’ and begins to beat his fellow servants, and eat and drink with drunkards [Martin Luther, et al], the servant’s master will come on an unexpected day and at an unknown hour and will punish him severely and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.”

St. Matthew 24:42-51

OSAS?

What’s OSAS?

 

[Mickey]

What’s OSAS?

Once saved always saved.

 

[Good_Fella]

God is the initiator and perfecter of our faith. The words of James need not be thought of as inconsistent with this idea. James was speaking to and on behalf of believers.

God gives those in Christ a deposit of His Spirit. Through the Spirit God causes us to walk in His statutes. This is more than an exhortation – it is a transformation of our nature and inner character.

God instills love in us and He does cause us both to will and do for His good pleasure. This does include causing our obedience.

For instance Paul would say how can one believe if they’ve never heard & how can they hear if no one preaches to them. So even exposure to the Gospel message is itself an aspect of the grace we were given.

– there was nothing, not a single thing, which made us a child of God that we can credit ourselves for.

According to your understanding of James, our good works are merely an effect or demonstration of our justification by faith alone (the mark of a robot) - not a cause which increases and perfects our justification before God. But James is not teaching this, for he believed that faith initially justifies, but our justification is perfected and completed by good works freely performed by us in God’s grace. In 4, 17 James teaches that failure to do good works is a sin against God. Thus works are absolutely necessary for our justification. If there is only God as the primary initiator and perfector of our faith demonstrated by our requisite good works managed by the imputation of the irresistible grace of the Holy Spirit, we could not be held accountable for sinning against God by failing to do these good works. Sin presupposes a moral responsibilty on our part; the refusal to sin - human merit in free participation on our part with the Holy Spirit. The perfection of our faith requires free human cooperation with God’s grace, which can be resisted unless we have no free will. Calvin can be dubbed as the father of spiritual determinism. :yup:

Thus if “God has caused us to walk in his statutes,” he would not have to exhort us nor the believers James was addressing. But Jesus does exhort us, and he commands us.

“Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your heavenly Father. For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the pagans do the same? So be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. The second is like it: You shall love your neighbour as yourself. The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

“No greater love has any man than to lay down his life for a friend.”

And that includes the rural “Chinaman” and all pagans who have never heard about Christ, but unkowingly emulate him from the heart, soul, and mind. (See Karl Rahner on “the annonymous Christian”.)

The demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them.
Romans 2, 15

The new Law of Freedom is all about love, and there is no love where responsible human freedom and merit is absent. God is love, and we have been created in God’s image. Love is that divine spark that resides within each of us in spite of our wounded sinful nature. God desires that we freely choose to love him and our neighbour. Grace enables us to answer God’s call of true freedom from the slavery of selfish passion. And if we truly love God, or what conforms with his will, we will respond to his call and assistance in answering it. We cannot truly love God and our neighbour if we are simply mechanized to respond in faith. Our life in faith is prompted by the Spirit, but it is perfected and completed by our response to the knowledge of the truth that is written in our hearts. This goes for all human beings: both the formally baptized and unbaptized (the baptized in blood and desire). Jesus recognizes the human merit of true love, which must be free in order to be genuine and thereby meritorious. I think you don’t really understand what true faith is.

And you’re wrong in believing that salvation is not offered to “all” mankind. We are all free to disobey the New Law of Freedom that has been planted in our hearts. This Law was not extinguished with the fall of Adam and Eve. It is an integral part of our human constitution, written in our nature, since we have been created in God’s image - and God is good! Ezekiel (37, 25-28) and Jeremiah draw our attention to this inner law of freedom.

But this is the ‘covenant’ I will make with the house of Israel; after those days, says the Lord. I will place my law within them, and write it upon their hearts; I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jeremiah 31, 33

“He from the essence of the Father, nor is the Son again Son according to essence, but in consequence of virtue, as we who are called sons by grace.”
Athanasius [A.D. 351].

PAX

 

[sola_scriptura]

According to your understanding of James, our good works are merely an effect or demonstration of our justification by faith alone (the mark of a robot) - not a cause which increases and perfects our justification before God. But James is not teaching this, for he believed that faith initially justifies, but our justification is perfected and completed by good works freely performed by us in God’s grace. In 4, 17 James teaches that failure to do good works is a sin against God. Thus works are absolutely necessary for our justification. If there is only God as the primary initiator and perfector of our faith demonstrated by our requisite good works managed by the imputation of the irresistible grace of the Holy Spirit, we could not be held accountable for sinning against God by failing to do these good works. Sin presupposes a moral responsibilty on our part; the refusal to sin - human merit in free participation on our part with the Holy Spirit. The perfection of our faith requires free human cooperation with God’s grace, which can be resisted unless we have no free will. Calvin can be dubbed as the father of spiritual determinism. :yup:

The demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them.
Romans 2, 15

You’re presenting an over-simplistic view of the dynamic here.

As you show – Paul tells us the law is written on our hearts. Does this mean God reaches into our minds and moves us about as if we’re entranced? Of course not. However, there is a real tangible witness to having the Holy Spirit inside of us.

The starting place for this issue is understanding predestination and grace. In the first instance we do not choose God, He chooses us. That choice is not based on any foreseen predisposition toward righteous behavior.

In the Our Father one of the things we ask God for is to keep us free from temptation. Who knows what little things in our daily lives impact our choices? However, what we do know is divine providence lies behind all of them.

The logic of this view is certainly well grounded. God predestines, so much cannot be denied (unless we are to deny the overwhelming preponderance of Scripture). Moreover, God does not base His choices on foreseen character traits. In other words He didn’t select you or I because we were somehow more predisposed to having faith that others are. Moreover, it cannot be said that the elect may possibly fail – since to say this denies absolute omniscience. God’s choices are made for reasons unknown to us, however, what we do know is those choices have nothing to do with us.

Yes we have free will – but at the same time the elect will never resist God’s grace. He orders the world and shapes our choices – even though within our mind they are obviously our choices.

Imagine if evolution or intelligent design are true? I personally know quite a bit about natural selection (from arguing with the flat earth types on different Christian forums), and I also know a bit about physics. Imagine everything starting from virtually nothing (just an invisible but dense particle of energy – which is what some astrophysicists think happened). Then an explosion, creating our early universe.

Imagine all the interactions between different chemicals that were required to to form the first biological cell.

When we observe evolution it seems to be a random process (Darwin wasn’t just making this stuff up – nor was he some mad scientist out to debunk religion). However, of course to God nothing is random. Imagine the sheer power, just from a metaphysical perspective, required to shape life using this process.

If you’ve ever studied quantum mechanics you will know that it’s not possible to know the location or momentum of moving particles (I’m speaking of exact location & momentum & sub-atomic particles). In other words imagine the precursors to biological life. There were atoms of different chemicals floating around. The right one had to interact with the exact right type of particle in order to cause a certain reaction, which led to another similar sequence, and so one until the first cell is formed. Then even once cells are formed you have the same type of seemingly random sequences leading up to human development.

I’m just trying to paint of picture of the magnitude of God’s power.

Many think that somehow a Calvinist outlook might undermine the impetus to seek after God (since it is so often misconstrued in the way you’re misconstruing it now) – some might believe we are passive actors in the economy of salvation, but this is not true.

However, imagine if God had you pegged even before that great explosion that formed our universe? He knew Good Fella & chose you. Not only that, but as His child He formed you – like a potter forms his clay. Isn’t this really what scripture tells us? How much more would we love God if we knew everything He did for us?

So God did not simply create everyone randomly (initiating the creation process and sitting back as a passive observer) and elect by looking down the tunnel of time. God chose us before our birth, formed us in the womb, and gave us everything. If you think somewhere in this process there’s something to pat yourself on the back for – then I really don’t know what else to say?

 

[Mickey]

He knew Good Fella & chose you. Not only that, but as His child He formed you – like a potter forms his clay.

Did God choose and form others for the specific purpose of damnation?

 

[sola_scriptura]

Did God choose and form others for the specific purpose of damnation?

I don’t necessarily agree with Calvin on that point. The fact is when it comes to “forming” (using the example of Jeremiah 1:5 where God reveals He formed Jeremiah in the womb) it doesn’t necessarily mean God will form one with particularly good characteristics. Look at Jacob, not an especially great guy throughout much of his life, look at Paul, prior to his conversion he persecuted the followers of Christ.

God’s building (or forming) is purpose driven; that is we are built for a reason – not wholly related to our personal salvation. God can save anyone, the act of saving doesn’t rely on some particular flesh characteristic. In other words God can choose to save anyone regardless of how they were formed (since salvation is Spirit driven).

Moreover, it isn’t all that clear that unbelievers will all ultimately be destroyed or sentenced to eternal torment. Jesus Himself provides some indication that there is accountability for faith (in other words never being exposed to the Gospel message may reduce ones culpability). Moreover, there are in effect two resurrections & not all of those raised up at the second resurrection are necessarily thrown in the lake of fire (to use the figurative language of Rev. 20).

Finally we are told to pray for everyone, so that they may come to knowledge of the truth. I find the argument that “all” people in this context actually refers to “all types” of people (a typical argument advanced by “hyper-Calvinists”) rather unpersuasive.

In other words our prayers are effectual, however, at the same time they are prearranged. So to answer your question my view is probably more complex than the rather black and white view of Calvin (and to a large extent Augustine).

I think what was lacking in Calvin’s (and Augustine’s) theories on predestination was a focus on eschatology.

That being said it is also equally clear that God has (and does) harden hearts. Again, hardening is also purpose driven. This is something more than the passive “passing over” theory asserted by hyper Calvinists – to make their view seem more amenable.

So in essence I do not view predestination as structured according to the rigorous systematic methodology presented by classical Calvinists. It is far more complex & has far fewer bright line rules than early theologians believed.

 

[Good_Fella]

You’re presenting an over-simplistic view of the dynamic here.

As you show – Paul tells us the law is written on our hearts. Does this mean God reaches into our minds and moves us about as if we’re entranced? Of course not. However, there is a real tangible witness to having the Holy Spirit inside of us.

The starting place for this issue is understanding predestination and grace. In the first instance we do not choose God, He chooses us. That choice is not based on any foreseen predisposition toward righteous behavior.

God does not base His choices on foreseen character traits. In other words He didn’t select you or I because we were somehow more predisposed to having faith that others are.

Yes we have free will – but at the same time the elect will never resist God’s grace. He orders the world and shapes our choices – even though within our mind they are obviously our choices.

Many think that somehow a Calvinist outlook might undermine the impetus to seek after God (since it is so often misconstrued in the way you’re misconstruing it now) – some might believe we are passive actors in the economy of salvation, but this is not true.

However, imagine if God had you pegged even before that great explosion that formed our universe? He knew Good Fella & chose you. Not only that, but as His child He formed you – like a potter forms his clay. Isn’t this really what scripture tells us? How much more would we love God if we knew everything He did for us?

So God did not simply create everyone randomly (initiating the creation process and sitting back as a passive observer) and elect by looking down the tunnel of time. God chose us before our birth, formed us in the womb, and gave us everything. If you think somewhere in this process there’s something to pat yourself on the back for – then I really don’t know what else to say?

For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or defend them on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus.
Romans 2, 14-16

Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
Romans 1, 32

You are presenting a complicated and distorted view of the gospel of Christ. There is something else which is inside every human being God has ever created: the moral conscience. At the appropriate time it enjoins us to do good and to avoid evil. The conscience judges what choice of action we take, approving that which is good and denouncing that which is evil. Our conscience bears witness to the authority of truth with respect to the supreme Good to which the human person, including the formally unbaptized, is drawn, and it welcomes each commandment that is inscribed in every human heart by the finger of God. When each human being observes the voice of his conscience, he listens to God who is speaking to him.

This is good and pleasing to God our saviour, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth.
1 Timothy 2, 3-4

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
Titus 2, 11

The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3, 9

The starting point in this matter is a correct understanding of predestination, grace, and merit. Calvin falsely taught that before time began God determined which individuals he would save and which ones he would damn. This kind of soteriology denies the existence of free will and moral responsibilty, since the need for ‘all’ men to repent and be saved becomes unnecessary. We mustn’t confuse God’s omniscience with his will or intentions. Predestination is associated with God’s foreknowledge. The so-called elect are the ones who God foresaw would freely repent of their evil ways and amend their lives by receiving his Word written in their hearts, by freely accepting his grace and cooperating with it in perseverance.

And by faith, we do not necessarily mean only those people who have actually acknowledged Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. The elect may include those who have informally received a ‘baptism of desire’ by living a life in conformity with the principles of Christ’s gospel in God’s saving grace. Justification and sanctification can be received by these informally baptized persons. God’s grace is available to all, including the formally unbaptized who cooperate with God’s grace without any intellectual knowledge of it.

In any event, the notion of a predetermined elect, who are chosen to be imputed with irresistible grace so that they can choose to do God’s will and not be damned, denies any human freedom of choice in wanting to be saved and collaboration with God’s grace. Meanwhile those people who never receive this irresistible grace cannot be justly damned for having freely chosen to reject God’s will and disobey him, since they were not granted a share of this necessary saving grace. Sola Gratia is an unbiblical doctrine, for it denies the availabilty of grace to all men and man’s obligation on his part to cooperate with it. Neither could anyone sincerely repent by having been specially chosen and effected to do so unfailingly. The Psalmist was forgiven his sin because he genuinely repented by cooperating with resistible grace. His sincere contrition and his free desire to be saved by the ‘infused’ grace of God marked his justification before God and sanctified him.

*Create a new heart in me, O God,
Put a steadfast spirit within me.
Do not cast me away from your presence,
nor deprive me of your holy spirit. *
Psalm 51, 12-13

David’s pardon was assured the moment he earnestly declared: “Do not cast me away from your presence.” It’s ultimately up to us not to be denied salvation. God ‘calls’ everyone to be saved, but he chooses only those who freely choose him first by listening to his word which is planted in our hearts. If God has actually intended that certain people should be damned, then he must be the author of their sins. And David’s declaration would amount to nothing more than a superficial demonstration of pre-election.

The words of our Lord best defines the meaning of election:

“For whoever does the will of my heavenly Father is my brother, and sister, and mother.”
Matthew 12, 50

The salvation offered to all requires a genuine love of God and obedience to his will. Without any human freedom of will and moral responsibilty our justification before God is meaningless. Calvinism is inconsistent with the notion of free will and human responsibilty no matter how hard you try to wriggle out of this contradiction of yours by quibbling.

*Grace is the help God gives us to respond to his call and accept our vocation of becoming adopted sons and daughters of God. The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. Grace responds to the deepest yearnings of human freedom to cooperate with it, and perfects freedom. *

We can have merit in God’s sight only because of God’s free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man’s collaboration. Man’s merit is due to God.
Catechism of the Catholic Church [2021, 2022]

PAX

 

[sola_scriptura]

For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or defend them on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus.
Romans 2, 14-16

Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
Romans 1, 32

You are presenting a complicated and distorted view of the gospel of Christ. There is something else which is inside every human being God has ever created: the moral conscience. At the appropriate time it enjoins us to do good and to avoid evil. The conscience judges what choice of action we take, approving that which is good and denouncing that which is evil. Our conscience bears witness to the authority of truth with respect to the supreme Good to which the human person, including the formally unbaptized, is drawn, and it welcomes each commandment that is inscribed in every human heart by the finger of God. When each human being observes the voice of his conscience, he listens to God who is speaking to him.

I disagree that my view is complicated and distorted. Indeed I actually agree with your premise. There is a moral conscience inside each human being (as C.S. Lewis infers quite wonderfully).

This moral law (or call it our natural law or conscience) has been with man always. Has it ever been honorable to hate the ones who love you? When we see a drowning man isn’t our compulsion to save him? This is what distinguishes us from lower creatures.

However, it is exactly that conscience, which creates an awareness of our inability. Man is spiritually discerned in that we cannot be joined with the bit of God that exists within us without grace.

The starting point in this matter is a correct understanding of predestination, grace, and merit. Calvin falsely taught that before time began God determined which individuals he would save and which ones he would damn. This kind of soteriology denies the existence of free will and moral responsibilty, since the need for ‘all’ men to repent and be saved becomes unnecessary. We mustn’t confuse God’s omniscience with his will or intentions. Predestination is associated with God’s foreknowledge. The so-called elect are the ones who God foresaw would freely repent of their evil ways and amend their lives by receiving his Word written in their hearts, by freely accepting his grace and cooperating with it in perseverance.

First, I’ve said repeatedly that I do not adhere to “double-predestination.” I simply think Calvin (just as Catholic and early protestant theologians) ignore the fact that eschatology is necessarily intertwined with soteriology.

Your view is the typical Arminian view. I understand there may be some distinctions between RCC & Arminian soteriology – but in this area (foreseen faith) it is exactly the same. Moreover, this does deride the Augustinian view, who flat out rejected the idea of foreseen faith. Certainly Calvin went much farther than Augustine, however, in this area there is full accord between the two.

Foreseen faith is simply another way of saying we elected ourselves. It is not scriptural & is simply wrong.

And by faith, we do not necessarily mean only those people who have actually acknowledged Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. The elect may include those who have informally received a ‘baptism of desire’ by living a life in conformity with the principles of Christ’s gospel in God’s saving grace. Justification and sanctification can be received by these informally baptized persons. God’s grace is available to all, including the formally unbaptized who cooperate with God’s grace without any intellectual knowledge of it.

This is not exactly right. The RCC (from my understanding) rejects millennialism (as does the Lutheran church). Revelation 20 teaches that there are two groups – those who accepted Christ during their lives (whom are raised first and co-rule with Christ) and those who did not (who are judged “according to their deeds”). However, scripture also states that no one can see the Father accept through the Son. It also states that those who do not know God’s will are not going to be treated as if they did (Luke 12:47-48).

Hence, IMO the reprobate will have an opportunity to accept Christ after their resurrection. N.T. Wright pushed me to take this fresh look at theology & when Revelation is considered scripture becomes perfectly consistent (without theological gymnastics). For instance, the hyper-Calvinist would say the word “all” as used in 1 Tim. 2:1-4 doesn’t really mean all in the natural sense of the word – rather it means “all types” of people. This is the sort of distortion of scripture I will reject all day long. When we consider Revelation we will find it is right and proper to pray for all men to be saved – because indeed they might be.

In any event, the notion of a predetermined elect, who are chosen to be imputed with irresistible grace so that they can choose to do God’s will and not be damned, denies any human freedom of choice in wanting to be saved and collaboration with God’s grace. Meanwhile those people who never receive this irresistible grace cannot be justly damned for having freely chosen to reject God’s will and disobey him, since they were not granted a share of this necessary saving grace. Sola Gratia is an unbiblical doctrine, for it denies the availabilty of grace to all men and man’s obligation on his part to cooperate with it. Neither could anyone sincerely repent by having been specially chosen and effected to do so unfailingly. The Psalmist was forgiven his sin because he genuinely repented by cooperating with resistible grace. His sincere contrition and his free desire to be saved by the ‘infused’ grace of God marked his justification before God and sanctified him.

Hopefully you realize my theological perspectives do not really fit neatly in any category (such as Calvinism – though I find his teachings useful). However, your assertion that all men are given an equal measure of grace and consequently an equal chance at salvation is not only fallacy – but it is only slightly more just than Calvin’s view of predestination to damnation.

Paul clearly proclaims how can men believe in someone they’ve never heard of (see Romans 10:14)? If salvation is by grace through faith – and exposure to the Gospel message is necessary to acquire faith, then certainly exposure to God’s word is an aspect of grace given to some & denied to others.

It is both easier and scriptural to understand these people will be afforded another opportunity at faith.

 

[mikeledes]

Just a clarification. Catholic predestination is not merely election based on foreseen faith. That is Arminianism and is not taught by the Catholic Church.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[sola_scriptura]

Just a clarification. Catholic predestination is not merely election based on foreseen faith. That is Arminianism and is not taught by the Catholic Church.

God Bless,
Michael

I didn’t think so (since I at least know Augustine flat out rejected the idea in his rebuke of Pelagius). Thanks for clarifying.

 

[distracted]

*“And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My Statutes, and ye shall keep My Judgments, and do them” (Ezekiel 36:27).

for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).*

if you are saying here that a person who has accepted Christ cannot fall from salvation… you fail to realize that even a person who fits the aforementioned sciprutre passage: (God “causes [the person] to walk in [His] statutes…” can still fall into sin… Say, for example, a person is r eally on fire for Jesus… committed to him and doing all he can to 'work out his salvation w/ fear & trmebling"… Then he meets a very attractive woman… and they fall in love and end up committing the sin of fornication. True, a mature Christian probably would not fall into this sin (?) but assume for the sake of argument he is not a strong, mature Christian. So the sin of fornication is now on his soul & the other person’s soul… Does God forgive? Of course… as soon as the person asks for forgiveness… … but the person’s soul is stained by this serious sin… changed… the grace he had before the sin is gone… his relationship with God more or less severed…

The stain must be washed off… the close-ness he once had with God must be repaired…

Assume further that the person dies before he can fully repent and fully be cleansed of the sin… (consequences fully dealt with).Does he go to Hell? No… not if he is truly repentent & working out his salvation (Phil 2:12)…

the bible speaks of a place of purification… (1 Cor 3:13, St. Matthew 12;32, etc.)…

In other words, there is no OSAS…

If your son (asusming u have one) came in the middle of the night and (say he ws drunk) … took a sledgehammer to your car… You would forgive him, but you would require that he pay for the damages…

 

[sola_scriptura]

if you are saying here that a person who has accepted Christ cannot fall from salvation… you fail to realize that even a person who fits the aforementioned sciprutre passage: (God “causes [the person] to walk in [His] statutes…” can still fall into sin… Say, for example, a person is r eally on fire for Jesus… committed to him and doing all he can to 'work out his salvation w/ fear & trmebling"… Then he meets a very attractive woman… and they fall in love and end up committing the sin of fornication. True, a mature Christian probably would not fall into this sin (?) but assume for the sake of argument he is not a strong, mature Christian. So the sin of fornication is now on his soul & the other person’s soul… Does God forgive? Of course… as soon as the person asks for forgiveness… … but the person’s soul is stained by this serious sin… changed… the grace he had before the sin is gone… his relationship with God more or less severed…

The stain must be washed off… the close-ness he once had with God must be repaired…

Assume further that the person dies before he can fully repent and fully be cleansed of the sin… (consequences fully dealt with).Does he go to Hell? No… not if he is truly repentent & working out his salvation (Phil 2:12).

the bible speaks of a place of purification… (1 Cor 3:13, St. Matthew 12;32, etc.)…

In other words, there is no OSAS…

If your son (asusming u have one) came in the middle of the night and (say he ws drunk) … took a sledgehammer to your car… You would forgive him, but you would require that he pay for the damages…

you offer a very simplistic view of this issue. First, I should say I don’t adhere to OSAS. However, I have addressed this issue ad nauseam in several different threads on this forum & I don’t have time to get into it right now – accept to say simply that I view the idea of purgatory (which you seem to be inferring here) as speculative (at best).

 

[distracted]

you offer a very simplistic view of this issue. First, I should say I don’t adhere to OSAS. However, I have addressed this issue ad nauseam in several different threads on this forum & I don’t have time to get into it right now – accept to say simply that I view the idea of purgatory (which you seem to be inferring here) as speculative (at best).

Purgatory is in the Bible… (though the word is not)… The idea that we need to be cleansed of our sins is definitely ubiquitous in Scirpture…

Jesus said it was difficult to get into Heaven… He said that many will not make it because they will not be “strong enough”…

Yet God is merciful… so if someone is trying… he will make it to Purgatory… where he or she will be given more time to work out his/her salvation “with fear & trmbling” (Phil 2;12)… Purg only makes sense… if someone is working out their salv w/ fear and trmbling… but dies prematurely… (as mnay do)… well, like i said, God. is merciful…

 

[Good_Fella]

Your view is Arminian.

Foreseen faith is simply saying we elect ourselves.

Your assertion that all men are given an equal measure of grace and consequently an equal chance at salvation is a fallacy.

Paul clearly proclaims how can men believe in someone they’ve never heard of (see Romans 10:14)? If salvation is by grace through faith – and exposure to the Gospel message is necessary to acquire faith, then certainly exposure to God’s word is an aspect of grace given to some & denied to others.

My view is a typical Catholic one that contrasts with Calvinism. It is in line with Augustine and Aquinas. I concur that predestination does not mean predetermination. Predestination means that God foreknows what we freely choose to do before we do it. And what God foresees does not preclude human free will. If it did, then we’d be left with a fatalism from which we could never hope to escape from. God’s infallible knowledge includes human free will. What God knows does not impose an unavoidable coercion upon our decisions to act or respond. God foresees how we are willing to shape our eternal destiny with the help of his grace. Thus the elect are those whom God infallibly foresees will be saved by their cooperation with his grace in perseverance.

The elect cannot be lost simply because God knows who will not be lost. His constant and active knowledge cannot be contradicted. Meanwhile nobody can know with certainty whether they are among the elect, since no human being can have a share in God’s actual foreknowledge. We can only hope that we will be counted among the elect after we depart from this life. For the time being God alone knows with certainty. Hence, the elect are predestined to the extent that God knows who they are, and helps them be saved by his grace. Still human free will can resist and reject God’s grace on account of our wounded sinful nature. In a sense we elect ourselves by choosing to be saved by cooperating with God’s grace. In this manner we are predestined. God has ordained that all men who cooperate with his grace and persevere to the end in loving obedience to his will should be saved. Here good works done in God’s grace are necessary for our salvation.

Calvin believed and taught that God’s grace is provided only to his priviliged elect. He rejected the Catholic teaching that grace is offered to all human beings without exception. Calvin contravened Holy Scripture: Titus 2:11; John 1:9, 16; Romans 2:4, etc… Again, if God’s grace is necessary for our salvation, then how can those people who have been intentionally discluded from God’s grace be justly condemned? There is no second chance for the reprobate, I’m afraid, in a Protestant mythological millennium. Why should God bother to give anybody a second chance, seeing he has already written his law in every human heart and has given man a conscience to be governed by? Paul never underestimated moral accountabilty.

Everyone, including those who are outside the Church or have never heard or read the gospels, who hearkens to the inner law of love and freedom and abides by his conscience is cooperating with God’s grace. Grace is not a part of human nature, but a gift from God to created beings in his image. Once grace is bestowed, it becomes a quality of human nature. Keep in mind all the righteous people, notably from the time of Adam to Moses, the lawgiver. Grace was an effect in the lives of these righteous people by the power of the Holy Spirit. The same is true for every righteous person outside the Church. Wherever the Holy Spirit is present and active in the hearts, minds, and souls of human beings, there the Church is also. There is no partiality with God. :nope:

All who sin outside the law will also perish without the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged according with it. For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather those who observe the law will be justified. For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge peoples’ hidden works through Christ Jesus.
Romans 2, 12-16

Our conscience does not only accuse, it also defends. The law which is written in our hearts is the gospel.

The true light which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.
John 1, 9

You fail to understand the true meaning of the word faith and what it means to hear the Gospel message. It is wrong to presume that people do not have the light of Christ in them because they haven’t actually heard or read the gospels as Christians have.

In the case of those who have not yet heard the gospel or learned of God, but who nevertheless seek to follow the truth as they understand it, they have an implicit desire for God since they desire to follow the truth. They simply do not know that God is the truth.
*[cf. Cathechism of the Catholic Church 847-48.[/COLOR]

PAX *

 

[distracted]

It is both easier and scriptural to understand these people will be afforded another opportunity at faith.

two questions: do you believe in sola scriptura…

and if not, why do you keep your handle?

1 Cor. 15 uses the term: “being saved”… meaning we are being saved…

Salvation is an on-going process…

 

[mikeledes]

I just want to clarify the Catholic Church’s teaching on predestination:

We shall return to this point. But in any case, from this minimum admitted by all we get three propositions to which all Catholic theologians subscribe. They are: (1) Predestination to the first grace is not because God foresaw our naturally good works, nor is the beginning of salutary acts due to natural causes; (2) predestination to glory is not because God foresaw we would continue in the performance of supernaturally meritorious acts apart from the special gift of final perseverance; (3) complete predestination, in so far as it comprises the whole series of graces from the first up to glorification, is gratuitous or previous to foreseen merits. These three propositions are admitted by all Catholic theologians.

Predestination is not merely God selecting those he foresaw would cooperate with His grace for eternal glory. That is Arminianism.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[sola_scriptura]

Purgatory is in the Bible… (though the word is not)… The idea that we need to be cleansed of our sins is definitely ubiquitous in Scirpture…

Jesus said it was difficult to get into Heaven… He said that many will not make it because they will not be “strong enough”…

please cite the verse that contains the words “strong enough”?

Yet God is merciful… so if someone is trying… he will make it to Purgatory… where he or she will be given more time to work out his/her salvation “with fear & trmbling” (Phil 2;12)… Purg only makes sense… if someone is working out their salv w/ fear and trmbling… but dies prematurely… (as mnay do)… well, like i said, God. is merciful…

I think God will invent a purgatory just for you guys … LOL (just kidding).

 

[sola_scriptura]

God’s infallible knowledge includes human free will.

again I do not deny human free will nor do I advocate fatalism. You’re painting a false dichotomy.

What God knows does not impose an unavoidable coercion upon our decisions to act or respond.

The idea of foreknowledge in itself is a form of fatalism (although I’m very familiar with Arminian & Molinist compatibility arguments).

It isn’t what God knows, necessarily, that draws us (although obviously omniscience plays a role). It is what God does that draws us.

God foresees how we are willing to shape our eternal destiny with the help of his grace.

So then it really is the man who wills and runs – it does rely on our desire & efforts?

Thus the elect are those whom God infallibly foresees will be saved by their cooperation with his grace in perseverance.

This theory might sound good to the logicians’ however … evidence please?

nobody can know with certainty whether they are among the elect, since no human being can have a share in God’s actual foreknowledge.

It sounds like you misconstrue the verses alluding to “foreknowledge” (try reading Jeremiah 1:5).

We can only hope that we will be counted among the elect after we depart from this life. For the time being God alone knows with certainty. Hence, the elect are predestined to the extent that God knows who they are, and helps them be saved by his grace.

Claiming to know the mind of God is different than understanding the Christian may (indeed must) have confidence in their election (see Romans 8:38-39, 1 John 4:13-18). We are also given tangible ways to know the Holy Spirit is dwelling within us (see 1 Cor. 12:3). However, this doesn’t mean it’s impossible to fall away.

If one understands that the Holy Spirit will inspire them toward obedience then He will. If one believes that neither the devil nor anything in all creation can destroy the love God has for them, then nothing will. However, if one doesn’t hold this view & believes God’s love for us can be destroyed – then they give the devil power over them.

In this manner we are predestined. God has ordained that all men who cooperate with his grace and persevere to the end in loving obedience to his will should be saved.

Your views come right out of John Wesley’s sermons – the Methodist church welcomes you.

Calvin believed and taught that God’s grace is provided only to his priviliged elect. He rejected the Catholic teaching that grace is offered to all human beings without exception.

Explain how this universal grace works exactly?

Calvin contravened Holy Scripture: Titus 2:11; John 1:9, 16; Romans 2:4, etc.

I would dispute your depiction of these verses. First, Romans 2:4 has no universalist component to its message. However, the other two speak of atonement (Christ).

With regard to Titus 2:11 do the words “appeared to all men” mean all men going forward and not those who died prior to the resurrection of our Lord? Does it also mean those who have never & will never hear about Jesus Christ during their lives.

Titus 2:11 recognizes that God is outside of time. He is the Alpha and Omega – He exists at the beginning and the end of time. For God His kingdom already exists. Christ has already appeared to all men (even those who haven’t been born yet & those who died before Christ became man). Paul is explaining how God views things. To read this any other way makes little sense.

There is no second chance for the reprobate, I’m afraid, in a Protestant mythological millennium.

You mean the “mythological millennium” clearly enumerated by Revelation 20?

Everyone, including those who are outside the Church or have never heard or read the gospels, . . . is cooperating with God’s grace. . . . Once grace is bestowed, it becomes a quality of human nature. Keep in mind all the righteous people, notably from the time of Adam to Moses, the lawgiver.

Then why did Jesus go & preach to the spirits in prison from before the flood?

Grace was an effect in the lives of these righteous people by the power of the Holy Spirit. The same is true for every righteous person outside the Church.

so let’s forget about the by grace through faith? Let’s forget about the words of John 3:18

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Let’s redact the words of Paul at Romans 10:14

*All who sin outside the law will also perish without the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged according with it. For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather those who observe the law will be justified. For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law. *

however, when Paul was speaking of the gentiles he was referring to believers?

In the case of those who have not yet heard the gospel or learned of God, but who nevertheless seek to follow the truth as they understand it, they have an implicit desire for God since they desire to follow the truth. They simply do not know that God is the truth.

but they will & they will bow the knee – because no one sees the Father unless through the Son.

so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth (Philippians 2:10).

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me (John 14:6).

 

[distracted]

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me (John 14:6).

this is virtually the only part of your post i appreciated…

didn’t even read most of it because i have read enough of your posts…

you don’t answer certain questions… you just keep bringing up barely related issues and non-related issues… and intellectualizing ad nauseum…

i feel i am talking to a wall…

Therefore, i see no point in continuing on… Waste o’time…

 

[onenow1]

Hi, again all
Read about the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46. You probably have already noticed that both believed, but did you also notice that only one worked? What was the final end of those who did no works? See verses 45-46. Since the goats believed, why then were they not saved also?

Peace, One Now1