More about Once Saved Always Saved..

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sola_scriptura said:
Another anti-protestant bigot who wears sheep’s clothing? I bet you would revel at the destruction of our churches – kind of like the Pres. of Iran dreams of wiping out Israel. The sad thing is I’m sure you’re really deluded into thinking this is how a Christian should think and talk?
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**oh please… **
 
sola_scriptura said:
Sorry Distracted – that was a day when I was getting some especially hateful responses on this board from various posters.
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well… assuming the apology is sincere… i appreciate it.

it takes humility to admit one is wrong and humility is supposed to be the greatest … (?) or one of the greatest virtues…

I frankly think the greatest virtue is to be with Jesus…

Beam me up, Lord :hypno:
 
distracted said:
well… assuming the apology is sincere… i appreciate it.

it takes humility to admit one is wrong and humility is supposed to be the greatest … (?) or one of the greatest virtues…

I frankly think the greatest virtue is to be with Jesus…

Beam me up, Lord :hypno:
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A virtue is an act we can do, ie, be humble. Being with Jesus is more of a state of being.
 
Spirithound said:
A virtue is an act we can do, ie, be humble. Being with Jesus is more of a state of being.
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That’s not very Aristotelian of you, or Jamesian. The virtues of faith, hope, and love must be exercised or acted in our lives or else they merely remain potentialities we possess. I’m sure you’re aware of the dictum: 'Actions speak louder than words.Being with Jesus is more of a state of doing.

Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his own face in a mirror. He sees himself, then goes off and promptly forgets what he looked like. But the one who peers into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres, and is not a hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, such a one shall be blessed in what he does.
James 1, 22-25

Thus Jesus exhorts us:

“Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

We reach perfection by first peering into the law of freedom and then acting upon it by obeying the will of God. Our faith initially justifies us, but it is completed and perfected by peresevering in doing the righteous things which please our heavenly Father.

So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2, 17

So to be humble, we must do something out of humility. God became humble when he was born in a lowly stable, having emptied himself and assuming the form of a slave. God humbled himself when he washed the feet of his apostles at the Last Supper. On this occasion Jesus exhorted us to follow his example of humilty. If we heed our Lord and Master’s words, he will say to us on the Day of Judgment:

“Well done, my good and faithful servant.”

PAX :cool:
 
Good_Fella said:
That’s not very Aristotelian of you, or Jamesian. The virtues of faith, hope, and love must be exercised or acted in our lives or else they merely remain potentialities we possess. I’m sure you’re aware of the dictum: 'Actions speak louder than words.Being with Jesus is more of a state of doing.
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Thank you for increasing my philosophical knowledge!
My point was “being with Jesus” is not a virtue, but rather the consequent of the practise of the virtues.
 
Good_Fella said:
That’s not very Aristotelian of you, or Jamesian. The virtues of faith, hope, and love must be exercised or acted in our lives or else they merely remain potentialities we possess. I’m sure you’re aware of the dictum: 'Actions speak louder than words.Being with Jesus is more of a state of doing.

Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his own face in a mirror. He sees himself, then goes off and promptly forgets what he looked like. But the one who peers into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres, and is not a hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, such a one shall be blessed in what he does.
James 1, 22-25

Thus Jesus exhorts us:

“Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

We reach perfection by first peering into the law of freedom and then acting upon it by obeying the will of God. Our faith initially justifies us, but it is completed and perfected by peresevering in doing the righteous things which please our heavenly Father.

So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2, 17
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I think I finally found an area where we agree! However, we probably still disagree on causation.

*“And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My Statutes, and ye shall keep My Judgments, and do them” (Ezekiel 36:27).

for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).*

Hence God is the initiator and perfecter of our faith. The words of James need not be thought of as inconsistent with this idea. James was speaking to and on behalf of believers.

As John states:

*Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. . .

We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. . . If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love (1 John 4:7-18).*

This gives us more insight into this question. God gives those in Christ a deposit of His Spirit. Through the Spirit God causes us to walk in His statutes. This is more than an exhortation – it is a transformation of our nature and inner character. We are reborn from our corrupt human nature, which is always at odds with God, into the children of God. John testifies to the witness of our faith.

James does not depart from this message. He is giving a very Jewish response to a Jewish sort of question. Are we not to do any good works? Can we proclaim a faith in Christ and still go about our sinful ways? James rebukes such notions sharply. He responds with a thunderous NO. Witness of faith is obedience to the commandments, it is good works, this is part of the message of our Lord. This is as much to tell the Jewish community and the broader non-Christian world that Christianity is not a permissive religion as it is to tell Christians what it means to be Christian.

Abraham was justified by his faith yes – but witness of his faith was his obedience to God, even when called to sacrifice his beloved son Isaac. Who could say they love God if they intentionally go about disobeying His commands?

God instills love in us and He does cause us both to will and do for His good pleasure. This does include causing our obedience, however, it also does not short circuit our minds. James’ exhortation to his fellow believers is part and parcel of the grace we are given.

There is no divine spark that is merely switched on by God if we freely choose to believe – rather we are infused with something totally and completely new, which we utterly lacked before – the Holy Spirit. Through the Spirit we will recognize good from evil. We will have an intuitive understanding of righteousness; and God will lead us toward it. God formed His elect in a certain way, in the womb, to make us unable to resist grace. However, this grace is manifested in various ways, not just inwardly.

For instance Paul would say how can one believe if they’ve never heard & how can they hear if no one preaches to them. So even exposure to the Gospel message is itself an aspect of the grace we were given. So it’s not as if God is our puppeteer and we’re being dragged along like Japetto.

Not only are we formed in a physical sense, but we are also formed by our extrinsic circumstances. God not only gave you and I a mind that would understand, but our parents, our place of birth, our friends and acquittance’s, and everything else that helped form us. Within this sphere we indeed maintain a mind that can think – however, there was nothing, not a single thing, which made us a child of God that we can credit ourselves for.

I hope this better explains my view – even if you disagree?
 
sola_scriptura said:
I

I hope this better explains my view – even if you disagree?
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Interesting scripture about the Church:

St. Matthew 18:15-20 (Sunday reading @ Mass): Jesus said to his disciples: “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.”

which begs the question

When Jesus is talking about the Church… one nowadays would ask him:

Which one???
 
distracted said:
Interesting scripture about the Church:

St. Matthew 18:15-20 (Sunday reading @ Mass): Jesus said to his disciples: “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.”

which begs the question

When Jesus is talking about the Church… one nowadays would ask him:

Which one???
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I really don’t want to grapple over this whole church point, which church is “the church” … etc. However, do you think Jesus had Rome or Greece in mind when He made this statement?
 
sola_scriptura said:
I really don’t want to grapple over this whole church point, which church is “the church” … etc. However, do you think Jesus had Rome or Greece in mind when He made this statement?
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I would say that He probably had in mind, Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem. 😃
 
Mickey said:
I would say that He probably had in mind, Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem. 😃
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1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

Jesus also said the kingdom is within us – in other words the collective of all the faithful in Christ for His body. As far as His church – there is of course a distinction between the visible and invisible mystical church. I think the concept of apostolic succession (as it is commonly understood) is a misconstruction of the intent of the apostles for a variety of reasons.
 
sola_scriptura said:
I really don’t want to grapple over this whole church point, which church is “the church” … etc. However, do you think Jesus had Rome or Greece in mind when He made this statement?
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I would say THE church that was of one heart and mind that didn’t have different doctrines among itself.

The followup is “HOW did that one church keep the unity of heart, mind, and doctrine?”

If each individual community was to independently select elders that answered to nobody … what/where is Timothy’s role and who chose him?

The first letter of Timothy is Paul giving instructions to ‘handle’ the situation. The situation was that some in that church (possibly elders?? not sure) were teaching/speculating on the Torah that didn’t lift the congregation in light of the risen Christ. So the local teachers needed to be brought in line or at least put back on track otherwise excommunicating themselves.

michel
 
sola_scriptura said:
I really don’t want to grapple over this whole church point, which church is “the church” … etc. However, do you think Jesus had Rome or Greece in mind when He made this statement?
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Only Jesus (& possibly a few others) knows…

But if the Church says NO to OSAS… and Jesus established only One Church…

Well, what more need be said?
 
sola_scriptura said:
I really don’t want to grapple over this whole church point, which church is “the church” … etc. However, do you think Jesus had Rome or Greece in mind when He made this statement?
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notice in the passage that Jesus says Church…

not Church-es…
 
sola_scriptura said:
*“And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My Statutes, and ye shall keep My Judgments, and do them” (Ezekiel 36:27).

Through the Spirit God causes us to walk in His statutes. This is more than an exhortation – it is a transformation of our nature and inner character.

God formed His elect in a certain way, in the womb, to make us unable to resist grace. However, this grace is manifested in various ways, not just inwardly.*

So “God formed the elect in the womb so that they are unable to resist his grace.” If grace is irrisistible and man has no meritoriously free part to play by accepting and cooperating with God’s grace, then he’s nothing but a robot with no moral responsibilty. Further, there then is no need to pray for the elect nor need to hope on their part, since their salvation is assured in this life. For the elect shouldn’t be able to sin anymore. In your theology grace is imputed, not infused. But God is the primary cause, man the secondary cause of his justification and sanctification. There cannot be a genuine change of mind and heart in man without his willingness to reform. I suggest you read ‘A Clockwork Orange’ by Anthony Burgess.

PAX
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